Claude Cowork Tutorial from Cowork's Design Lead (40 Min) | Jenny Wen

频道: Peter Yang
视频: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlIy7b-3DC8
原文语言: en
统计: 共 138 轮 · Jenny Wen 72 · Peter Yang 66

[0:00] Jenny Wen

They're creating entire features in days, not weeks these days. I think about the specs that we used to make 6 months to a year ago and you know, be like milestone one, we have these P0s, we have these P1s. We still do that prioritization, but it's usually just like a few bullet points. My secret is that I actually use co-work for most things now. Okay, I start every Monday morning at 10:00 a.m. with this presentation and with like three different product ideas that I can use and kick off the week for. The UI looks so different just like four, five weeks ago and now it's like we're we're constantly learning like what's working and isn't working. If you feel that the ground is shifting beneath your feet, it's because it is.

现在他们能在几天里就做出整个功能，而不是几周。我回想起六个月到一年前我们写的那些 spec，会说什么里程碑一、我们有这些 P0、有这些 P1。我们现在还是会做这种优先级排序，但通常就只是几个要点。我的小秘密是，现在大部分事情我其实都用 Cowork 来做。是这样的，我每周一早上十点都用这份演示文稿开场，外加三个不同的产品点子，用它们来开启一周的工作。UI 和四五周前比起来差别太大了，现在我们是在持续学习——什么有效、什么无效。如果你感觉脚下的地面在移动，那是因为它真的在移动。

[0:40] Peter Yang

Hey everyone, I'm super excited today to welcome Jenny, design lead at Anthropic. Uh Jenny's going to show us how she uses Claude co-work and Claude code to design and ship products and give us the inside story of co-work and also maybe what's next for the product. So, welcome Jenny.

大家好，今天我特别高兴能请到 Jenny，Anthropic 的设计负责人。Jenny 接下来会给我们演示她是怎么用 Claude Cowork 和 Claude Code 来做设计、交付产品的，还会给我们讲讲 Cowork 背后的内幕故事，可能也会聊聊这个产品接下来的方向。那么，欢迎 Jenny。

[0:54] Jenny Wen

Thanks, Peter. So good to be here.

谢谢 Peter，很高兴来到这里。

[0:56] Peter Yang

Yeah. All right, so um I'm I'm just really curious like what is a typical day like at work for you? Like what what what tasks take up most of your time?

好。那我特别好奇，你工作中典型的一天是什么样的？哪些任务占了你大部分时间？

[1:04] Jenny Wen

Like is there a typical day? Like I don't know if there is a typical typical day. Uh but a lot of the things that I spend time doing is it's like to get product out the door, right? Like so but I think that maybe looks different from what it looked like a year or two ago. Um and a lot of that is a lot of it is just actually like jamming with engineers and product people and whatnot in like a less formal way. It's often, you know, looking at a prototype together and then like pointing out and and thinking about the ways that it can evolve. Um it's sometimes just like talking about the behavior of things and then sometimes it's it's it's me like implementing stuff. Um I think there's also still a big portion of the time that is like, you know, me designing stuff, prototyping and stuff like that, but it feels like a lot of the the way that design works these days is kind of loose. Like it is in the in the it's it sounds so like uh like non-tangible. It's like, "Oh, it's a conversation or it's just like jamming with people." Um but that is kind of what I I find a lot of the work to do because to be because it's less, you know, I I spend less of my time just focused on one single project, but I feel like I'm like consulting on like, you know, five or six different projects at any given time.

真的有所谓典型的一天吗？我都不确定有没有什么典型的一天。不过我花很多时间做的事，基本上都是为了把产品交付出去，对吧？但我觉得这跟一两年前的样子可能很不一样了。其中很大一部分其实就是以一种比较不正式的方式，跟工程师、产品的人之类的一起头脑碰撞。常常就是大家一起看一个原型，然后指出问题、思考它可以怎么演进。有时候就是聊聊某些东西的行为表现，有时候则是我自己动手去实现一些东西。我觉得还是有很大一部分时间是我在做设计、做原型这类事情，但感觉现在设计工作的方式有点松散。在……这听起来特别那种，特别不具体。就好像「哦，就是一段对话」或者「就是跟大家一起碰撞想法」。但我发现很多工作就是这样的，因为它不那么……我现在很少把全部时间只聚焦在某一个项目上，而是感觉自己在同一时间像是在为五六个不同的项目做咨询。

[2:17] Peter Yang

Interesting. Okay, so basically you have a bunch of prototypes that generate through like Claude or something and then you just kind of jam with the engineers, give some feedback. And then you just prompt AI to like improve it, right? Is that Is that how it works?

有意思。所以基本上你有一堆通过 Claude 之类的工具生成的原型，然后你就跟工程师一起碰撞，给一些反馈。然后你再 prompt AI 去改进它，对吧？是这样运作的吗？

[2:28] Jenny Wen

Basically. Like uh so and they're not even often prototypes like that. Like they're they're working prototypes. They're things that are in our internal builds and instances of of Claude or Cowerk. And usually like I've spent some time using the feature, you know, pushing the feature, seeing what it's capable of, and forming opinions. And the next step on iterating with on them is often like me just sitting down with the engineer and be like, "Hey, here's what I think. These are the things I should change." I think part of there is still time where I feel like, you know, being in the in the design tools and iterating on it and like getting down to polish and to iteration is like still really really important. Um so that part hasn't like gone away. It just I think I think since I'm like operating on more projects at any given time, it it feels more effective to sort of just like do it really casually and and and and informally.

基本上是。不过它们往往甚至都不算那种原型，它们是能跑起来的原型，是我们内部构建版本里的东西、是 Claude 或 Cowork 的实际实例。通常我会花点时间去用这个功能，去压榨它、看看它能做到什么，然后形成自己的看法。下一步在它们基础上迭代时，往往就是我直接坐到工程师旁边说：「嘿，我是这么想的，这些是应该改的地方。」我觉得其中还是有一部分时间，是我觉得待在设计工具里、对它做迭代、把它打磨到位、做精修，这些仍然非常非常重要。所以那部分并没有消失。只是我觉得，因为我同一时间在更多项目上运转，所以用这种很随意、很非正式的方式去做，反而感觉更有效率。

[3:25] Peter Yang

Okay, I mean that that's always been like the most fun part of just like, you know, being a PM or designer to me just like getting with the designer and engineers and just like looking at a product and iterating. Yeah.

好。我是说，对我来说，作为一个 PM 或者设计师，最有意思的部分一直都是这个——跟设计师、工程师凑在一起，盯着一个产品不停迭代。对。

[3:34] Jenny Wen

Yeah.

对。

[3:35] Peter Yang

So there isn't a lot of um like do you guys still make like uh specs and Figmas and like, you know, these planning documents or is it just like in the code iterating on prototypes?

那现在是不是没有太多……你们还会做那种 spec、Figma，还有这些规划文档吗？还是说就是在代码里、在原型上迭代？

[3:45] Jenny Wen

Uh I mean I still make Figmas. I don't I think we haven't We don't make specs as often. Like they're And they're not as detailed usually.

我是说，我还是会做 Figma。我们……我觉得我们没那么频繁地写 spec 了。而且写出来通常也没那么详细。

[3:53] Jenny Wen

Yeah, like we we still do that prioritization and it like exists in a document. It's actually really good for us to like hand off to security or legal and stuff like that so they understand what's happening in the launch, but it's usually just like a few bullet points. It's not this like beautiful table that's over-engineered. Um and I think the same thing goes for our our our Figma files.

对，我们还是会做优先级排序，它也会以文档的形式存在。这对我们来说其实很有用，可以交接给安全团队、法务团队之类的，让他们了解这次发布里发生了什么。但它通常就只是几个要点，而不是那种过度设计的、漂亮的表格。我觉得我们的 Figma 文件也是一样的道理。

[4:12] Peter Yang

Okay, so what I'm getting to is so like now Anthropic and by the way like I I spent my whole life on Claude like I I live in Claude these days, but like uh now now you guys have like three separate products, right? You have Claude, coworker, and Claude code. And maybe you can just kind of like show us like how you use some of these products or like how what do you use each one for?

好，那我想问的是——现在 Anthropic，顺便说一句，我这辈子都泡在 Claude 上，我现在基本就活在 Claude 里。但现在你们有三个独立的产品，对吧？你们有 Claude、Cowork，还有 Claude Code。也许你可以给我们演示一下你怎么用这几个产品，或者你每一个分别用来做什么？

[4:30] Jenny Wen

Yeah. Uh I will show you coworker because my secret is that I I actually use coworker for most things now aside from like the the very uh nitty-gritty production code stuff. So like when I'm polishing, I will you still use like Claude code, um but I for for all for all purposes of chat, I actually fully use coworker now. Um so I will show you some things there. Okay, I'm going to show you this account that I'm using with coworker. There's no There's no tasks there because this is sort of like not my burner, but it's my uh it's my external account. Uh but trust me like my actual coworker has like many different sessions that I'm often like running in parallel and whatnot. Um and so one thing that I find coworker really helpful for is I I just generally call it sort of like garbage in treasure out. It's just really good at taking things from a lot of different sources and then like finding and like picking the gems out of it and also making it something really productive. Um so right now I've actually like hooked it up with a folder of uh They're They're not real user interviews. I've like actually gotten Claude to generate them, but they're Let's just say they're like a bunch of like transcripts from user interviews that we've done from UXR. And I think the thing with that we try to do at least on the Coda team is we try to stay super close to the ground both through like traditional sources of like UXR and like talking to people, but also through like internal dogfooding through through things like just this running Slack channel of all this feedback, but then also, you know, social and and and people who are using it and passionate users there. And so, um like I think that's actually been a big part of our like somewhat success so far is that we have just been like

好。我会给你演示 Cowork，因为我的小秘密是，现在除了那种非常细枝末节的生产代码之外，大部分事情我其实都用 Cowork 来做。所以当我在做打磨的时候，我还是会用 Claude Code，但所有跟对话有关的场景，我现在其实完全用 Cowork 了。我来给你演示一些东西。好，我给你看看我现在用的这个 Cowork 账号。这里面没有任务，因为这个不算我的小号，它是我的外部账号。但相信我，我真正的 Cowork 里有很多不同的会话，我经常是并行地在跑。我发现 Cowork 特别好用的一点，我一般管它叫「垃圾进，珍宝出」。它特别擅长把来自很多不同来源的东西拿过来，然后从里头找出、挑出那些精华，还能把它变成真正有产出价值的东西。比如现在，我其实已经给它接上了一个文件夹，里面是一些用户访谈。它们不是真实的用户访谈，是我让 Claude 生成的，但就当它们是一堆我们 UXR 团队做过的用户访谈记录吧。我觉得至少在我们 Cowork 团队，我们想做到的一件事，是想尽量贴近一线——既通过 UXR、跟人聊这种传统渠道，也通过内部试用，比如就靠一个一直在跑的 Slack 频道收集各种反馈，还有社交媒体上、那些正在用它的热情用户那里。所以我觉得这其实是我们目前还算有点成绩的一大原因，就是我们一直……

[6:23] Jenny Wen

staying super close to that and iterating really quickly. So, what I will do here is, you know, I will say like, "Cool, like I have this I have this folder of interviews, but I also will tell Claude like, 'Hey, can you look on like social and all all you know, like customer reviews or and whatnot of Coda Work and tell me what the biggest insights are.' So, um look in this folder of UXR interviews and on social like X and Reddit and other reviews for Coda Work or I also say like Claude Coda Work. Tell me what the main insights are. And I'll have Claude do that. It might take a little bit of time because it's like going It's truly just going through so much data and and and processing it, but yeah, it'll do things like it'll sometimes like spin off subagents to do that parallel and it'll search the web for a while and do that. But yeah, it's basically just pulling from a wide variety of sources.

……保持非常贴近一线，并且飞快地迭代。所以我在这里会做的是，我会说：「酷，我有这个访谈文件夹。」但我也会告诉 Claude：「嘿，你能不能去社交媒体上，还有各种用户评价之类的地方，看看关于 Cowork 的内容，告诉我最重要的洞察是什么？」所以我会说，去看这个 UXR 访谈文件夹，再去社交媒体比如 X 和 Reddit，还有其他关于 Cowork 的评价——我有时候也会说 Claude Cowork——告诉我主要的洞察是什么。然后我会让 Claude 去做这件事。可能会花点时间，因为它真的是在过一大堆数据、处理这些数据。它会做一些事，比如有时候会派生出子 agent 去并行处理，也会上网搜索一阵子。但总之，它基本上就是在从各种各样的来源里汇总。

[7:33] Peter Yang

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[8:16] Peter Yang

And uh in in your real job, do you have some sort of a like weekly insight report or something that, you know, gets sent to you and your team or something that I get all the stuff automatically?

那在你真正的工作里，你们有没有那种每周的洞察报告之类的东西，会发给你和你的团队，或者说能让我自动收到这些内容？

[8:25] Jenny Wen

I mean, well, we can make that right now through Claude through Coval.

我是说，我们现在就可以通过 Claude、通过 Cowork 把那个做出来。

[8:28] Peter Yang

Okay.

好。

[8:29] Jenny Wen

So, I'll show you the flow for that. Yeah, I would we do in that I think one of our our researchers has one that they'll send out, and then we have one that's sort of like pings us in Slack as well that will send that out. Um and then we just we also just like listen to the Slack like the internal Slack like we have really been relying on our internal and like most powerful users to sort of like be the people that gives us like the the sort of bleeding edge feedback because um people internally are really willing to be honest with you, and they're they're often pushing the capabilities furthest, and it's easiest to follow up with them, too, because they are just, you know, so close to you and like and willing to participate. So, um we rely on internal feedback a lot, which might be counterintuitive.

那我给你演示一下这个流程。对，我们确实有——我觉得我们有一位研究员就有一份这样的报告会发出来，然后我们还有一份会在 Slack 里给我们发提醒、把那个推送出来。然后我们也就……我们也会去听 Slack，比如内部的 Slack。我们真的很依赖内部那些、那些最强力的用户，把他们当成给我们提供最前沿反馈的人，因为内部的人特别愿意对你说实话，而且他们往往把能力边界推得最远，跟他们后续跟进也最容易，因为他们就在你身边、特别愿意参与。所以我们很依赖内部反馈，这可能有点反直觉。

[9:18] Peter Yang

I mean, that that that's what should happen like and I I feel like most companies like the they're just like so siloed that like the teams don't talk for each other's product. But like it it feels like Anthropic that very much happens, right? Both for Coval and Claude Code.

我是说，这本来就应该是这样的，而且我感觉大多数公司……他们就是太各自为政了，团队之间根本不会去用彼此的产品。但感觉在 Anthropic，这种事真的会发生，对吧？无论是对 Cowork 还是 Claude Code。

[9:29] Jenny Wen

Yeah. Yeah, like it was a big part I think of Claude Code's success, too, is just like listening to your front line users. Um and I and that was a thing too that we did a lot at Figma, too, was a lot of internal dog fooding. Um Yeah, because a lot the the people will point out things that, especially when it comes to um things like interaction design and and polish and whatnot, people internally will really poke at that stuff versus people externally tend to give you feedback often about like the you know, does it work for their user flows? It's it it could just be like a very different altitude of feedback.

对。对，我觉得这也是 Claude Code 成功的一大原因，就是去倾听你的一线用户。而且这也是我在 Figma 时常做的事，做了很多内部试用。对，因为很多人会指出一些问题，尤其是涉及交互设计、打磨这类东西时，内部的人会真的去抠那些细节；而外部的人往往更多是给你关于「这东西对他们的用户流程管不管用」的反馈。这可能就是两种完全不同高度的反馈。

[10:06] Peter Yang

And let me ask you this while this thing is generating. So So I I know that at Anthropic like marketing APM everybody was like is basically using Claude Code to also do stuff. Now now that Co-work is internally available, how how do you see different types of functions or like how are people using this versus Claude Claude Code or depends?

趁这东西还在生成，我问你这个。我知道在 Anthropic，市场、APM，每个人基本上都在用 Claude Code 来干各种活。那现在 Cowork 在内部可用了，你怎么看不同的职能，或者说大家用这个跟用 Claude Code 有什么区别，还是说看情况？

[10:25] Jenny Wen

Yeah. I I think we're seeing just like overall like wider adoption of of Co-work for similar use cases that some of like the the bleeding well I call like the bleeding edge users of Claude Code were. Like for example, when we started working on Co-work, we had a few internal sales sales employees just be sort of our inputs into what we should build and there were a few people who were like oh we're like they're like die hard Claude Code users and they were using it to generate like leads lists and help them like come up with scripts and whatnot for calls and and and it was like it sort of blew my mind when I saw it cuz I I at that point didn't even comprehend that you could use Claude Code for those things and those folks they are they're basically all on Co-work now and then more of their sort of like their peers are actually using Co-work as well. Whereas before those people were like the bleeding edge users.

对。我觉得我们看到的是，总体上 Cowork 在那些跟以前 Claude Code 的最前沿用户类似的使用场景里，被更广泛地采用了。比如说，我们刚开始做 Cowork 的时候，找了几位内部销售员工，让他们大致充当我们「该做什么」的输入来源。其中有几个人是那种铁杆 Claude Code 用户，他们用它来生成线索清单、帮他们想打电话用的话术之类的。当我看到的时候简直让我大开眼界，因为我当时甚至都没想到 Claude Code 能用来做这些事。而那些人现在基本上全都转到 Cowork 上了，然后他们更多的同事其实也在用 Cowork 了。而在以前，那些人才是最前沿的用户。

[11:27] Peter Yang

Just because like actually it's nice to see a UI and

就因为能看到一个 UI 其实挺好的，还有……

[11:30] Jenny Wen

I think so, yeah. I I think that's that's what it that's honestly what it takes and and I think also part of it is it's so close to the other work too that they're doing. You know, if they're already using chat and they can still use cloud code too from this desktop app too. So, it just I think it it fits closer to their existing workflows than opening up the command line does.

我觉得是的，对。我觉得说实话就是这个起了作用。而且我觉得还有一部分原因是，它跟他们正在做的其他工作贴得太近了。你想，如果他们本来就在用对话，而且还能从这个桌面应用里照样用 Claude Code，那它就……我觉得它比打开命令行更贴合他们现有的工作流。

[11:54] Peter Yang

Okay. Looks like it's generating something. Yeah.

好。看起来它在生成什么东西了。嗯。

[11:56] Jenny Wen

And it's generating stuff. Okay. Yeah, so it sounds like there is some there's some insights there. Okay, cool. Like I can take these insights and there's like seven different themes here. They're different every week, which is great. But I can I can basically tell it and say you know, like it's it's created this doc x for me, which actually is like it will be it's already like stored in a folder on my computer, which is great. And so what I can also do is like I can spin off two parallel tasks. So, here I can say like, okay, cool. Like these are great insights. But what are product features I should actually build from this.

它在生成东西了。好。对，所以听起来这里有一些洞察。好，酷。我可以拿着这些洞察——这里有七个不同的主题，它们每周都不一样，这点很棒。但我基本上可以直接跟它说，它已经给我生成了这个 doc 文档，其实它已经存到我电脑上的一个文件夹里了，这很棒。然后我还可以做的是派生出两个并行任务。比如在这里我可以说：「好，酷，这些洞察很棒，但我到底应该从这些里头做出哪些产品功能？」

[12:48] Peter Yang

Yeah.

对。

[12:48] Jenny Wen

And then what I might also do in parallel is you know, it's already attached this folder that it that this output has been dropped into. I could say, okay, given the insights in this folder from the insights doc you made me, turn this into a presentation I can share with the team this week at our kickoff.

然后我可能还会并行做的另一件事是——它已经把这个输出落到的文件夹附上了。我可以说：「好，根据这个文件夹里、你给我做的那份洞察文档里的洞察，把它变成一份演示文稿，让我这周在我们的启动会上分享给团队。」

[13:25] Peter Yang

Mhm.

嗯。

[13:26] Jenny Wen

So, in one in one thread it's like making me an artifact, the other one it's starting to actually like figure out what to do next. Um and I think this is going to run for a bit, too, but ultimately what I can do from here is like start the design process essentially. Like it will give me options for um what the features I can create and from there I can even ask Claude to like create some wireframes for me for those given features. And that can be a really good place where it just shows me a bunch of different options. And I can take those bring those with me to Figma and actually like start to flush them out or like or bring them with me to uh to Claude code and start to make them like real with our like real design system components. And just like get started from there. And then the other thing I can also do, too, is just like take these and like turn them both into scheduled tasks.

所以在一个线程里它在给我做一个 artifact，另一个线程里它已经开始真正去琢磨下一步该做什么。我觉得这个会跑一会儿，但归根结底，我从这里可以做的，基本上就是开启设计流程。它会给我一些选项，告诉我可以做哪些功能，从那里我甚至可以让 Claude 给这些功能画一些线框图。这会是个很好的起点，因为它直接给我展示一大堆不同的选项。然后我可以把这些带到 Figma 去真正充实它们，或者把它们带到 Claude Code 里，用我们真正的设计系统组件把它们做成真实的东西，就从那里开始。然后我还能做的另一件事，就是把这两个都变成定时任务。

[14:22] Peter Yang

Yeah.

对。

[14:22] Jenny Wen

So

所以——

[14:23] Peter Yang

Exactly. Yeah.

正是这样。对。

[14:23] Jenny Wen

I can say Actually, I probably wouldn't start from here. I would Once this is done running, I would say, "Okay, like schedule this for me." Um I don't want to disrupt while it's doing this thing.

我可以说——其实我大概不会从这里开始。我会等这个跑完之后再说：「好，帮我把这个定个时。」我不想在它正干活的时候打断它。

[14:35] Peter Yang

Yeah.

对。

[14:36] Jenny Wen

But I would probably just like have it structure a schedule this task for me to do it every Monday morning at like 10:00 a.m. or something. And then that way I start every Monday morning at 10:00 a.m. with this presentation and with like you know, three different product ideas that I can use. Um and can kick up kick off the week for and it just makes that sort of like iteration cycle um between feedback to actually creating something that's tangible or an idea that the team can look at just really it squishes that time to be really tight and it helps us just iterate on the product quickly and make it much better quickly.

但我大概会让它去安排——给我把这个任务排成每周一早上十点左右做一次之类的。这样一来，我每周一早上十点开场时就有这份演示文稿，外加三个不同的产品点子可以用，用它们来开启这一周。它就让那个迭代循环——从反馈到真正做出一个看得见摸得着的东西、或者一个团队能看的点子——把那段时间压得非常紧凑，帮我们快速地在产品上迭代，快速地把它做得更好。

[15:08] Peter Yang

Yeah. It's all about the iteration. It's all about the iteration. Yeah.

对，关键全在于迭代。关键全在于迭代。对。

[15:11] Jenny Wen

Yeah.

对。

[15:12] Jenny Wen

Um

嗯——

[15:12] Peter Yang

Yeah.

对。

[15:13] Peter Yang

Yeah. And you know what? Like I I I I also gotten so lazy. Like I always let AI take a first cut at everything and I just kind of react to it. Yeah. So So if you if you actually want me to take those insights and try to draft like some sort of a feature priority thing from scratch, it'll take me like way longer than it used to take.

对。你知道吗？我也变得特别懒了。我现在总是让 AI 先给所有事情打个初稿，然后我就负责对它做出反应。对。所以如果你真的让我拿这些洞察、从零开始起草某种功能优先级的东西，那花的时间会比以前长得多。

[15:30] Jenny Wen

Yeah, yeah. I mean that's how I operate, too. Like even even when you sent me over like the notes for this podcast, I was just like I you know I I keep a folder of like all of my personal notes, whether it's like things from one-on-ones or things from random thoughts, and then I was just like cool, like you know read my personal notes and like like come up with with speaking points for for this podcast and and and help me think about what I want to say here. And it I mean I'm not going to I'm not reading it word for word or anything, but it just helped me jog my mind in terms of like oh cool, like these are the things that I I care about and and and I didn't have to think that hard to to to to actually like or like helped develop my thinking instead of just like being stuck there with the blank prop prop page problem.

对对。我是说，我也是这么干活的。比如就连你把这次播客的笔记发给我的时候，我就直接——我会保留一个文件夹，里面放着我所有的个人笔记，不管是一对一谈话里记的，还是随手冒出的想法。然后我就直接说：「酷，读一下我的个人笔记，给这次播客想几个发言要点，帮我想想我在这里想说什么。」我是说，我不会逐字逐句地照着念，但它就帮我把脑子里的东西激活了，就像「哦，酷，这些是我在意的事」，而且我都不用想得那么辛苦，或者说它帮我发展了我的思路，而不是让我对着空白页干瞪眼、卡在那儿。

[16:20] Peter Yang

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

对对。对。

[16:21] Jenny Wen

Yeah. Okay, so it's doing the thing where it's it's backing and telling me what the P0s and P1s are. You know, so if I let's say like I want to build up the step-by-step progress task progress UI, I can just say like I like the step-by-step progress the step-by-step progress UI idea. Make me an interactive prototype of that um of a few options of this and do it in a scratchy wireframe style.

对。好，现在它正在做那件事——它在反推，告诉我哪些是 P0、哪些是 P1。所以比如说我想做那个分步进度、任务进度的 UI，我可以直接说：「我喜欢这个分步进度的 UI 点子。给我做一个交互式原型，做几个不同的选项，用那种潦草的线框图风格来做。」

[16:59] Peter Yang

Scratchy wireframe.

潦草线框图。

[17:00] Jenny Wen

Yeah, yeah.

对对。

[17:01] Peter Yang

Got it. Okay. Okay, so so it has context of what Collab looks like now or

明白了。好。那它有没有现在 Cowork 长什么样的上下文，还是说……

[17:06] Jenny Wen

Uh this probably doesn't cuz I haven't set it up to have that. But it will just I think based on like the context here and whatnot, it will it will try its best and it it pretty isolated, too. So, I don't think I have to sh show it like, "Okay, this is what Coda works looks like." But, I could I could upload, you know, like an image.

这个大概没有，因为我没给它设置那个。但它就会……我觉得它会根据这里的上下文之类的，尽它所能去做，而且它也相当独立。所以我觉得我不一定非得给它看「好，这是 Cowork 长的样子」。不过我也可以，你懂的，传一张图给它。

[17:24] Peter Yang

Yeah.

对。

[17:24] Jenny Wen

And also, uh you know, give it this like Anthropic branded skill that we have um to to make it look more on theme.

另外，你也可以给它我们有的这个 Anthropic 品牌 skill，让它看起来更符合主题调性。

[17:32] Peter Yang

Do you have any uh yeah, like that's my next question. Like, what kind of skills do you use or do you have any personal skills? Uh for like making these docs and slide slides?

你有没有……对，这正是我下一个问题。你都用什么样的 skill，或者你有没有什么个人的 skill？比如用来做这些文档和幻灯片的？

[17:41] Jenny Wen

Yeah, uh we have a few internal skills that we use for some of these like docs and slides because um it helps brand them. I actually don't have like a personal skill like library that I use. Um I've been mostly borrowing from the ones that we have internally and using them for different purposes.

对，我们有几个内部的 skill 会用在这些文档和幻灯片上，因为它能帮它们打上品牌烙印。我其实没有那种自己的个人 skill 库。我基本上都是借用我们内部已有的那些，把它们用在不同的用途上。

[17:58] Peter Yang

Okay. Okay.

好。好。

[17:58] Jenny Wen

Yeah.

对。

[17:59] Peter Yang

Cuz yes, like for example, I have a skill like a writing skill that just that just tries to tell them not to like make AI slop words like just

因为，对，比如说我有一个 skill，一个写作 skill，它就专门告诉它们别去用那些 AI 味儿的废话词，就是……

[18:07] Jenny Wen

Yes, yeah.

对，对。

[18:08] Peter Yang

Yeah, you know, so that helps a little bit. But, yeah.

对，你懂的，所以这能稍微帮上点忙。不过，对。

[18:11] Jenny Wen

Yeah. I I've actually found that like now with This is probably not like the the best practice and the most efficient thing to do, but with um with Coda work and some of these like folders I have with all these like personal notes and what not, it's uh sort of like learning about me from those folders has been really useful to a in a way to me where it's like it I I feel the need less for for things like memory and for skills because it sort of has this knowledge base about me already. Um even though I think I think there's still a there's still a time and place for skills, but I personally for for the use cases that I've had have felt like less of a need for them.

对。其实我发现现在……这可能算不上最佳实践、也不是最高效的做法，但有了 Cowork，再加上我那些放满个人笔记之类东西的文件夹，让它从这些文件夹里去了解我，对我来说真的特别有用。它已经有了这么一个关于我的知识库，所以我反而觉得没那么需要 memory 和 skill 这些东西了。当然我觉得 skill 还是有它适用的时间和场景的，但就我自己遇到的这些用例来说，我感觉对它们的需求没那么强了。

[18:49] Peter Yang

Oh, because it it it it it it just updates its memory every day. Maybe it's not with your conversations.

哦，因为它每天都会更新自己的 memory。也许那部分不是来自你跟它的对话。

[18:53] Jenny Wen

Yeah, or it's it's Yeah, and it's basically like that is like a memory that almost that I I maintain of it because I'm taking notes in it all the time. Yeah.

对，或者说……对，基本上那相当于是一份由我自己来维护的 memory，因为我一直在里面记笔记。对。

[19:02] Peter Yang

Got it.

明白了。

[19:03] Jenny Wen

Yeah.

对。

[19:03] Peter Yang

Yeah, this is great. It looks like your presentation is ready. Just like a thought.

这个挺棒的。看起来你的演示文稿已经做好了。就随口一说。

[19:07] Jenny Wen

My presentation is ready. Let's see if it is. Oh, it is. Um okay, cool. So, it's made this presentation. It will load a little bit. Um, yeah, so I think, you know, with this you could take it into into keynote or whatnot. Um, it did I didn't ask it to use the Anthropic scale here, so it's sort of generic, but um, I could and then yeah, I think from here I would take this and I would say like like schedule. Uh, yeah, do this every morning or every Monday morning at 10:00 a.m.

我的演示文稿做好了。我们来看看是不是真好了。哦，确实好了。好，酷。所以它已经把这个演示文稿做出来了。它会加载一会儿。对，所以我想，有了这个，你可以把它导进 Keynote 之类的工具里。它……我没让它用 Anthropic 的配色风格，所以看起来比较通用，但我可以让它用。然后从这里开始，我会接着说，比如「排个程」。对，「每天早上做一次」，或者「每周一早上 10 点做一次」。

[19:42] Peter Yang

Uh, and you can set it up in a way where Can you set it up in a way where it actually shares with your team, too? Not just you. Like in Slack or something.

那你能不能把它设置成不光给你自己看，还能真正分享给你的团队？比如发到 Slack 之类的地方。

[19:48] Jenny Wen

Yes, like I could I I I I I could set it up with my like Slack MCP and have it just like send it out, um, basically. So, it's like I think I would What my Yeah, so I think it all I also like how it asked me like clarifying questions here, so uh, it will What should this money Let's say it rebuilds the deck. Yeah, so it'll it'll do that. Um, yeah, and then I could also ask it to, um, you know, using the Slack MCP send it to a certain channel every every week.

可以，比如我可以用我的 Slack MCP 来配置，让它直接把内容发出去。所以基本上……我想我会……对，我也很喜欢它在这里会问我一些澄清性的问题，所以它会……「这个应该……」假设它重新生成这份演示文稿。对，它就会去做。然后我也可以让它用 Slack MCP 每周把内容发到某个特定的频道。

[20:15] Peter Yang

So, so when do you bring your team into this process? Or like, you know,

那你是在哪个环节把团队拉进这个流程的？或者说，你知道的，

[20:18] Jenny Wen

Mhm.

嗯。

[20:19] Peter Yang

Like, yeah, when when when do you actually cuz you're interviewing with the AI and then you go interview with your team and you kind of go back and forth or how do you

就是，对，你到底是什么时候……因为你先是跟 AI 做访谈，然后又去跟你的团队做访谈，来回穿插，还是说你是怎么……

[20:26] Jenny Wen

Yeah, I mean here like the the the actual like UXR interviews are like something that I probably I wouldn't you know, like either the PM or the researcher on the team or somebody else on the team would actually do. Um, and then we would and then through this you probably just like share the artifact and bring them in. Um, and and then and then I that this actually could become the the thing that the team operates off of, you know, like it's like oh, you know, the the team at least our team is pretty bottoms up and and like democratic in that way and so giving the way we operate is like we just give people the insights and the goals and then everybody sort of, uh, like goes off and like makes prototypes and try stuff out and ideas come from everywhere and so that's what the the handoff point is. It's like it's like it's less of like oh like me as a designer I will come up with all the ideas but it's like hey here are you know anybody can do this it doesn't have to just have to be the designer either. It's like here are the insights here's what we're trying to do this month and how can we all get there? Like how can we all meet this goal together?

对，我是说，比如这里，真正的 UXR 用户访谈这种事，很可能是我不会亲自做的——你知道的，要么是团队里的 PM 或者研究员，要么是团队里其他人来做。然后我们会……通过这个，你大概就直接把 artifact 分享出去，把他们拉进来。然后这个东西其实可以变成整个团队据以运转的那个东西。你知道的，就像……至少我们团队是相当自下而上、相当民主的那种方式，所以我们的运作方式就是：我们把洞察和目标交给大家，然后每个人就各自去做原型、试东西，点子可以从任何人那里冒出来。所以这就是那个交接点。它不像是「哦，我作为设计师，要想出所有的点子」，而是「嘿，这件事任何人都能做，不一定非得是设计师」。就是「这是我们的洞察，这是我们这个月想达成的目标，我们怎么一起到那儿？我们怎么一起达成这个目标？」

[21:31] Peter Yang

Yeah maybe just give like half task to to Claude to to create a PR for and then with the more complicated ones you can like try to hand hold it.

对，也许就把一半的任务交给 Claude 去做、让它提个 PR，然后那些更复杂的，你可以试着手把手带着它做。

[21:39] Jenny Wen

Yeah I mean yeah I I think with this we we still wouldn't hand it like directly to Claude to to to do all the stuff like there a lot of what we do is I think we rely on ourselves for a lot of our own judgment and our ability to like curate and decide what to actually build and do.

对，我是说，对，我觉得就这个事而言，我们还是不会直接把它全权交给 Claude 去做所有事情。我们做的很多事情，我觉得很大程度上还是要靠我们自己的判断力，以及我们去甄别、决定到底该构建和做什么的能力。

[21:56] Peter Yang

And like you know people could talk about taste and stuff and judgment online. Like I don't know about you but like I I feel like the way to build this stuff is is just to yeah like just just get the fire hose of product feedback from internally and externally and then you just kind of develop this sense of like what's broken and what needs to be fixed cuz just hearing feedback all day long.

而且你知道的，大家会在网上聊什么品味啊、判断力啊这些。我不知道你怎么想，但我觉得做好这种东西的方法，就是去承受那股从内部和外部涌来的产品反馈洪流，然后你慢慢就会培养出一种感觉：什么是坏的、什么需要被修，因为你整天都在听反馈。

[22:14] Jenny Wen

Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

对对对对。

[22:16] Jenny Wen

Yeah.

对。

[22:16] Jenny Wen

So that's what I think yeah like you know it will have created the this like basically kind of wire framey type things and

所以我觉得……对，你知道的，它会做出这种基本上算是线框图风格的东西，然后

[22:23] Peter Yang

Got it.

明白了。

[22:24] Jenny Wen

Yeah and I think it's like it'll show you different options and stuff like that and I think I am as a designer I like to just like see a lot of options even if they're like not super high fidelity

对，我觉得它会给你展示不同的方案之类的，而且我作为一个设计师，就是喜欢一次看到很多个方案，哪怕它们的精细度没那么高。

[22:33] Peter Yang

Yeah.

对。

[22:33] Jenny Wen

versus like imagine them and and that helps me decide like what to actually do. So yeah I think having Claude just like come up with the options saves me like a step from just having to mock them up even though from here what I would probably do is like choose one of these directions and then like start to like micro iterate on it or even take this and and make a prototype of it in code and then iterate from there.

而不是只在脑子里想象它们，这能帮我决定到底该做什么。所以对，我觉得让 Claude 直接把这些方案做出来，帮我省掉了「自己动手画草模」这一步。不过从这儿开始，我接下来大概会做的是：从这些方向里挑一个，然后开始对它做细微的迭代，甚至把它拿过来、用代码做成一个原型，再从那里继续迭代。

[22:58] Peter Yang

Got it. Okay.

明白了。好的。

[22:59] Jenny Wen

Yeah yeah.

对对。

[23:00] Peter Yang

Well it sounds it sounds like a fun job yeah it like a fun.

嗯，听起来……听起来这工作挺有意思的，对，像是个挺好玩的工作。

[23:02] Jenny Wen

Yeah, it's a fun job.

对，是个挺好玩的工作。

[23:03] Peter Yang

Sounds fun. Let's switch topics a little bit and um let's talk about how Cohort came to be, you know? So so like um there's a bunch of stuff out there about how it came together in 10 days.

听着挺有意思。咱们稍微换个话题，聊聊 Cowork 是怎么诞生的吧。你知道的，外面有一堆说法，说它是怎么在 10 天里搞出来的。

[23:15] Jenny Wen

Yeah.

对。

[23:15] Peter Yang

But I but I think it's actually there was a lot of iteration before that too, right? Or like

但我觉得其实在那之前也经历了很多轮迭代，对吧？或者说……

[23:18] Jenny Wen

Yeah, that's a that is one of those things that I think got pulled out of a quote somewhere on on somebody else's like uh interview or or press tour and I think everyone just anchored onto it like, "Oh, they made it in 10 days." Um and the actual like the actual story is that Cohort or this like direction of Cohort has been something that uh the company has been like thinking about or like wanting to do for honestly like basically ever since I joined Anthropic um about a year ago. Like just some way to help and and be sort of like a thinking partner for not because like since we already have this basically for code, but for like all general knowledge workers. Um and I think a lot of it has just been like, "How do we execute on it? And what is the right, you know, architecture for it? And what is the right UX for it?"

对，那属于那种……我觉得是从别人某次访谈或者媒体宣传里的某句话被单独拎出来的说法，然后大家就都咬住这一点：「哦，他们 10 天就做出来了。」而真实的故事是，Cowork、或者说 Cowork 这个方向，其实是公司一直在思考、一直想做的东西，老实说基本上从我大约一年前加入 Anthropic 起就是这样了。就是想找到某种方式，去帮助大家、去当一个思考伙伴——不只是为了写代码，因为这块我们其实已经基本有了，而是为了所有的通用知识工作者。我觉得很大一部分一直纠结的是：「我们要怎么把它落地？它正确的架构是什么？它正确的 UX 又是什么？」

[24:16] Peter Yang

Mhm.

嗯。

[24:17] Jenny Wen

And so even throughout last year like there's been like lots of different prototypes, some more ambitious than others. Um there's been a lot of different um like technical experimentation around like different agent harnesses that we used, a few that didn't pan out super well um before we landed here. And uh we've seen prototypes from people in our sort of like labs wing, but also like prototypes that we built on the product side of the house. Um and I think about like a lot of these things it's just about you know, if the idea keeps coming back and there's like energy each time, but then it's like the execution. Often it is just about like timing and execution just like the lightning striking really well. So, um when we did decide to ship this, it was basically 10 days from like, "Oh yeah, we should ship this." to like, "Okay, it's shipped." kind of thing. And a lot of that was like building on the momentum of what we were seeing with Claude Code over the holiday break. Where it feels like over the holiday break, you know, everybody finally had the time to try out Claude Code cuz they've been hearing about it. They're like, "Okay, it sounds great. You know, there's all these AI tools. I don't have any time to try it." But then, for some reason, everybody tried it out. And then a lot of also like people with non-technical use cases tried it out. Like people were using it to like do things like parse their podcast transcripts, or they were using it to do all these like complex analyses and stuff like that. And we were starting to see like even like early product market fit of like the Claude Code basically agent harness with non-technical people. And so, we already had this sort of like working prototype of that internally. And we were slated to to launch it a bit

所以哪怕是整个去年，也有过很多个不同的原型，有些比另一些更有野心。也做了很多不同的技术实验，围绕我们用过的各种 agent harness（智能体框架），有几个最后没成，直到我们落到现在这个方案。我们看过来自所谓 labs 部门那边的人做的原型，也有我们产品这一侧自己做的原型。我觉得关于这类事情，关键就在于：如果一个点子反复回来、而且每次都还有那股劲，那剩下的就是执行了。往往就是时机和执行的问题——就像闪电恰好劈得特别准那种感觉。所以当我们真的决定要发布它的时候，基本上是从「对，我们应该把这个发出去」到「好，发出去了」一共 10 天的事。而这里头很大一部分，是建立在我们假期前后看到的 Claude Code 那股势头之上的。感觉就是在假期里，你知道的，大家终于有时间去试 Claude Code 了，因为他们之前一直听说它。他们想：「好吧，听起来很棒。你知道的，市面上有这么多 AI 工具，我哪有时间去试。」但不知怎么的，假期里大家都去试了。而且还有很多带着非技术用例的人也试了。比如有人用它来解析自己的播客转录稿，或者用它做各种复杂的分析之类的。我们开始看到，连 Claude Code 这套 agent harness 在非技术人群里都已经有了早期的产品市场契合（PMF）的苗头。而我们内部本来就已经有这么一个跑得起来的原型了。我们原计划是稍晚一点再发布它，

[25:57] Jenny Wen

later, but I think that gave us the We were like, "This is the moment. We need to meet it." And even if we don't have the perfect product yet, we should get something out there because we think that like the benefits and the usefulness and our our moment to like capture this audience, it is right now. And so, that's that that that ensued a really hectic 10 days. But it got us here. And now that it's out here, it's been really really helpful for us to get the signal from people of how to how they use it and iterate on it and and keep making it better for people.

但我觉得这给了我们……我们当时想：「就是这个时刻，我们必须抓住它。」哪怕我们还没有一个完美的产品，我们也应该先把东西放出去，因为我们觉得它带来的好处、它的实用性，以及我们去抓住这批受众的时机，就是现在。所以这才有了那极其忙乱的 10 天。但它把我们带到了今天。而现在它发出去了，对我们来说真的特别有帮助——能从大家那里拿到信号，了解他们是怎么用的，然后据此迭代，不断把它做得更好。

[26:30] Peter Yang

Yeah, you can learn way faster. Like you just I I I guess the research preview is like the new beta. You can learn way faster. Yeah. Okay, so basically, so if I understand, there was even over the past year, there's a bunch of like people sharing prototypes in Slack internally. And then, you know, people leaving feedback. And then eventually, you had a working prototype. And then because the market kind of demanded it, you kind of just like rushed you kind of just like did a sprint to make it happen.

对，你能学得快太多了。我猜 research preview（研究预览）就像是新时代的 beta。你能学得快太多了。对。好，所以基本上，如果我理解没错的话，在过去这一年里，有一堆人在内部 Slack 里分享原型，然后大家留下反馈，最终你们做出了一个能跑的原型。然后因为市场某种程度上有了这个需求，你们就直接来了一场冲刺，把它给做出来了。

[26:54] Jenny Wen

Yeah, basically. And like we were originally going to launch this a few weeks later anyway, but it it felt like, "Oh, this is the moment." And it sort of forced us to scope it in a way that was a little bit more realistic, and like and and just like put energy behind it and staffing behind it.

对，基本上是这样。而且我们本来反正也是打算晚几周再发的，但感觉就是「哦，就是现在这个时刻」。这反而逼着我们把范围圈定得更现实一点，然后真的往里投入精力、投入人手。

[27:12] Peter Yang

And can you can you share some early iterations or any kind of like work in progress stuff?

那你能不能分享一些早期的迭代版本，或者任何那种进行中的半成品？

[27:17] Jenny Wen

Yeah. Yeah, I pulled together a few screens of what it actually looks like or or some like design iterations to of it. There's obviously like there's a lot more, but this is what I can show you. Okay. So, we had like an earlier prototype in the year. This is actually something that another designer and I collaborated on. But we actually tried to make this sort of feel a little bit more like task-oriented or like workflow-oriented. And I think also we were really worried at that time like, "Oh, like Claude is or people are not going to understand that with a product like Co-work that they're going to be able to, you know, do certain things or like make certain basically outcomes like make a dashboard or something and gather sources from a a bunch of different places. And so we actually made this the the the UI much more structured and almost like you would like a workflow tool where it's like, "Hey, add these things. Like this is these are the inputs and these are the outputs." And then we made chat sort of secondary here. And I think when we did this like one Claude was like not great at sort of following the workflow exactly at that point given the the technology that we had. And it felt like way too structured. Like I think seeing this UI on the left where you sort of have to fill it out and like add all these different sources, it didn't feel good, you know?

可以。对，我整理了几张它实际长什么样的截图，还有一些 design 迭代的版本。显然还有很多很多，但这是我能给你看的。好。所以，我们在那一年里有过一个更早的原型。这其实是我和另一位设计师一起合作做的。我们当时其实想把它做得更偏任务导向、或者说更偏工作流导向一点。我觉得那会儿我们还特别担心，「哦，Claude……或者说用户可能不会理解：用 Cowork 这样的产品，他们其实是可以去做某些事、或者产出某些成果的，比如做一个仪表盘什么的，从一大堆不同的地方汇集来源资料。」所以我们就把这个界面做得结构化多了，几乎像你做一个工作流工具那样：「嘿，把这些东西加进来。这些是输入，那些是输出。」然后我们把聊天放到了次要的位置。我觉得我们做这个的时候，一来以当时我们手上的技术，Claude 还不太擅长严格地照着工作流走；二来它给人感觉太结构化了。我觉得看到左边这个界面——你得把它一项项填完、加上各种不同的来源——感觉就是不对劲，你懂吗？

[28:51] Peter Yang

Yeah, it felt like too much work. Yeah.

对，感觉太费劲了。对。

[28:52] Jenny Wen

And it was just felt like a lot of work. And it was like, why do we have to do this in this day and age in 2025 when we could just like ask Claude to do something for us?

就是感觉要做的事太多了。然后就会想，都 2025 年这个时代了，我们干嘛非得这么做？我们明明可以直接让 Claude 帮我们做个什么就好了啊。

[29:01] Peter Yang

Got it.

明白了。

[29:02] Jenny Wen

Um and so that was one iteration that was actually a part of like a different prototype.

所以那是其中一个迭代版本，它其实属于另一个不同的原型。

[29:07] Peter Yang

Mhm.

嗯。

[29:08] Jenny Wen

Yeah.

对。

[29:08] Peter Yang

Got it.

明白了。

[29:08] Jenny Wen

Um and then we originally were just like, okay, we eventually were like, okay, cool, like it's going to be a chat box. Um and we tried to do a thing where we guided people towards like more specific outcomes, like whether it was like analysis or documents. Um and we built this like this working prototype that I wish I had a screenshot of where each of these, like when you clicked into them, they almost had like different dials for you to like adjust the length of the document or

然后我们一开始就……我们最终想，好吧，酷，那就做成一个聊天框吧。然后我们试着做了一个东西，去引导用户走向更具体的成果，比如分析报告，或者文档。我们做了这么一个能跑的原型——可惜我没留下截图——它每一个选项，当你点进去的时候，几乎都带着不同的「旋钮」，让你去调节文档的长度，或者……

[29:35] Peter Yang

I see.

我懂了。

[29:35] Jenny Wen

or or you know, like the type of document, like memo, presentation, whatever. Um and that felt like really overwhelming as well, I think. Um and so a lot of big thing we were trying to balance with a lot of these explorations was like how prescriptive of the use cases are we versus like free form like a chat box.

或者，你知道的，文档的类型，比如备忘录、演示文稿之类的。我觉得那同样让人感觉特别不知所措。所以我们在这一堆探索里一直在努力平衡的一个大问题就是：我们对这些用例到底要规定得多死，还是说像聊天框那样保持完全自由的形式。

[29:54] Peter Yang

Got it.

明白了。

[29:55] Jenny Wen

Um and then the the what we actually ended up shipping with just a few weeks ago, a few months ago, um was something like this. Uh where again, we we did have this like sort of like almost wizard-like experience where you click through and it'd be like, oh, create a doc, make it three to five pages, etc., etc. Um and we also just showed a bunch of the UI up front because we wanted it feel like really differentiated from chat. Um but then I think when you come here, it just felt like there was a lot of competing visual elements. Um and so over time, like we we stripped most of this back. Um and and and we went away from this actually like really opinionated UI because uh it was it's like not helpful to show all of these things. Um and so yeah, it's this constant balance of like how much do we tell people how to use and what to use it for versus like leave it really free form for them. Um and so now actually like if you look at the current UI, which I'm just going to switch. If you look at the current UI, yeah, like a lot of it is really peeled back. Um we don't have we don't we're not showing you the like heavy sidebars. Um and it feels more like the traditional like sort of chat box, but we we sort of have we re- format of the homepage to feel more almost like it's Claude's active to-do list. Um so here I only have like one active task, but you know, I get at any given time I could have like many more. You know, like if if I'm really asking Claude to do stuff or if I've like, you know, given Claude a bunch of tasks and come back, I'll have a bunch of these where it'll be like, "Okay, there's an extra message. Um or I could review this." And here I can actually just like approve and triage these tasks. So it's like, "Yeah, let's schedule that." Um and then I'll I'll

然后我们就几周前、几个月前真正发布出去的版本，大概是长这样的。这里我们确实又有了这么一种几乎像「向导」一样的体验，你一步步点过去，它会说，哦，创建一个文档，把它做成三到五页，等等等等。而且我们还把一大堆界面元素一上来就全摆出来了，因为我们想让它感觉跟聊天有很强的区分度。但我觉得当你来到这个页面时，会感觉这里有一大堆互相争夺注意力的视觉元素。所以随着时间推移，我们把这里大部分东西都精简掉了。我们也放弃了这种特别「有主见」的界面，因为把所有这些东西都展示出来其实并没有帮助。所以对，这就是一个永恒的平衡：我们到底要在多大程度上告诉用户该怎么用、用它来做什么，还是给他们留一个真正自由发挥的空间。所以现在，如果你看一下当前的界面——我直接切过去——如果你看当前的界面，对，里头很多东西都被剥得很简洁了。我们没有……我们不再给你展示那些很重的侧边栏。它感觉更像传统的那种聊天框，但我们把首页重新设计了，让它感觉更像是 Claude 的一份待办清单。这里我只有一个进行中的任务，但你知道的，在任意时刻我都可能有更多。比如如果我真的在让 Claude 干很多活，或者我给了 Claude 一堆任务、过一阵再回来，我就会有一堆这样的条目，它会说「好，有一条新消息」，或者「这个我可以审一下」。在这里我其实可以直接审批、分流这些任务。比如「对，把那个排上日程」。然后我就会……

[31:40] Jenny Wen

see my scheduled tasks here. And the idea is that it yeah, it just feels much more like a shared to-do list between you and Claude as opposed to this chat box with like a bunch of overwhelming suggestions and and UI to sort of show you how to use it.

……在这儿看到我已排程的任务。我们的想法是，对，它感觉更像是你和 Claude 之间共享的一份待办清单，而不是一个塞满了一堆让人不知所措的建议、还有各种界面来教你怎么用的聊天框。

[31:55] Peter Yang

Got it.

明白了。

[31:55] Jenny Wen

Yeah.

对。

[31:56] Peter Yang

That's awesome. That's awesome. And and and maybe in the future it can be like uh you know, like you have like multiple agents and they can be like a Trello board. You can you can like move tasks around and stuff like that.

太酷了。太酷了。而且……也许将来它可以变成，你知道的，比如你有多个 agent，它们可以摆成一个 Trello 看板那样，你可以把任务拖来拖去之类的。

[32:04] Jenny Wen

Yeah, I mean, maybe.

对，我是说，也许吧。

[32:07] Peter Yang

Maybe. Yeah. Yeah, maybe maybe by the time this podcast come out you have updated the UI again.

也许。对。对，也许等这期播客上线的时候，你们又把界面更新过了。

[32:12] Jenny Wen

Yeah, yeah, maybe. Maybe. Yeah, but I think that also shows hopefully that shows too like the UI looks so different just like, you know, maybe like four or five weeks ago and and now it's like we're we're constantly learning like what's working and isn't working, but we're also learning best about how to like display this technology to people.

对，对，也许吧。也许。对，但我觉得这也……希望这也能说明，这个界面跟大概四五周前比已经长得太不一样了，而现在我们一直在学习什么有用、什么没用，但我们同时也在不断摸索，到底怎样把这项技术更好地呈现给用户。

[32:32] Peter Yang

Yeah.

对。

[32:33] Jenny Wen

Yeah.

对。

[32:33] Peter Yang

You know, it's very interesting like um for Claude code, like I I I I've been leaving I've I've been like doing some feedback about like I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I But like it's not very beginner-friendly, right? It It's It's just like It's like a game where you like learn more and more and you kind of master it. I think maybe for Cowork you're trying to find a middle ground between between the regular chat and the clock codes so that it's not like all the things are hidden, like but but like you you try to guide people in some

你知道的，有件事挺有意思的，就拿 Claude Code 来说，我一直在留一些反馈……不过它对新手不是特别友好，对吧？它就像一个游戏，你得不断学、越学越多，慢慢才能精通它。我觉得也许对 Cowork 来说，你们想在普通聊天和 Claude Code 之间找到一个折中点——既不是把所有功能都藏起来，但又试着在某种程度上引导用户。

[33:06] Jenny Wen

Yeah. I mean, we you're still able to use slash commands in Cowork, but they're not like the primary way in which you interact. And I think the way that at least I personally think about it is, you know, at least Cowork is also a tool for professionals and we sort of see a bunch of people use it in very power user-y ways, and there are already power users of it. So, a lot of people will be motivated to learn much more complex capabilities, right? Like they will be willing to create their own skills, share them with their team, etc., and also want shorthand, you know, commands for things. But all most all these things should be possible without having to do that learning as well. Um and and and those sort of commands should be a secondary way to interact with Claude. And and and you shouldn't have to know all the commands in order to use it.

对。我是说，你在 Cowork 里仍然可以用 slash command（斜杠命令），但它们并不是你跟它交互的主要方式。我觉得至少我个人是这么想的：你知道的，Cowork 同样是一个面向专业人士的工具，我们也确实看到一堆人在用非常硬核的方式使用它，它已经有了一批 power user（重度用户）。所以很多人会有动力去学那些复杂得多的能力，对吧？比如他们会愿意创建自己的 skill、分享给团队，等等，也会想要那种处理事情的简写命令。但所有这些事情，应该都能在不用去经历那番学习的情况下也做得到。而那类命令，应该是跟 Claude 交互的一种次要方式。你不应该非得知道所有命令才能用它。

[33:58] Peter Yang

Yeah, that that makes sense.

对，这说得通。

[34:00] Jenny Wen

Yeah.

对。

[34:01] Peter Yang

Okay. All right, well, just a couple of closing questions, I guess. Um So, um how does a planning work at Anthropic? It It seems like a pretty chaotic place. Like, do do you guys do Do you guys do like annual planning and like, you know, setting goals and stuff or is it more just like prototyping and trying it out?

好。行，那我想就剩几个收尾的问题了。嗯，Anthropic 内部的规划是怎么做的？感觉那是个相当混乱的地方。你们会不会做……你们会不会做那种年度规划、定目标之类的，还是说更多就是做原型、直接上手试？

[34:17] Jenny Wen

Uh I mean, it also changes every time we do planning. Like, I feel like every time we've done it, it's been very different. Um on the team that I am on, we do monthly planning. We We just We have a spreadsheet and it I think it at least in in the co-work section, there's maybe like max like 12 things in that list. And it's really truly our P0s. And then for each of them, they just have one single DRI. And it's like And then we just come back each week and we're like, are we on track or not? Um there is some amount of like quarterly or half planning that we'll do where I think usually one of the leads will be like, hey, this is like generally where I think we should go. Um and these are the things that we should work on. But it's not so structured where it's like we absolutely have to do these things and these are the projects. It's sort of like just giving everyone a picture of how things might fit Um okay. Yeah. Yeah, so it's it's pretty loose.

呃，我是说，每次做规划的时候这个也会变。感觉每次做规划，方式都很不一样。嗯，在我所在的团队里，我们是按月做规划。我们就用一个表格，我觉得至少在 Cowork 这块，那个清单里最多也就 12 项左右，而且真的全是我们的 P0。每一项都只配一个 DRI（唯一负责人）。然后我们每周回来看一下，就是看进度有没有掉队。嗯，也会有一些季度或半年度的规划，通常会有某位 lead 出来说，嘿，我觉得大方向大概是往这边走，这些是我们应该做的事。但它没那么死板，不是说这些事我们非做不可、这些就是定死的项目。更像是给所有人一张图，让大家看到事情大概怎么拼在一起。嗯，对，所以挺松散的。

[35:14] Peter Yang

It's pretty loose, right? Yeah. You know, you know, that that that's the funny thing I find cuz like, you know, Anthropic is one of the most innovative companies. But I find at the most innovative companies, it's less about trying to do this annual planning theater and more just about like iterating and like learning from the users. Like like do do you still make like like at some point in your career probably be like a North Star vision deck or something or something, right? Like Like do you think that stuff is useful?

挺松散的，对吧？对。你知道吗，我觉得这件事挺有意思的，因为你看 Anthropic 是最具创新力的公司之一，但我发现在最具创新力的公司里，重点反而不在于搞那套年度规划的形式主义，而更多是在快速迭代、从用户身上学习。那你呢，你职业生涯里某个阶段，可能也做过那种北极星愿景的 deck 之类的东西吧？你觉得那种东西有用吗？

[35:36] Jenny Wen

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I like I think we did I I made a North Star vision deck maybe last year. Um so we I think there is still room for these visions in that they point people towards something and make create clarity around what we're going to do. I think given though where at least I work, you know, like we this technology like literally changes all the time and there's new models all the time. And the the rate at which new models is coming out is like just faster and faster basically. Um I think there's no such thing as like yeah, a a one-year vision. Um let alone a two-year or five-year vision for us because there's so much that's unknown out there. Um but what actually is helpful still is like pointing people towards the same direction, especially when like anyone can build anything. So what I think about as visions now is just more like yeah, it's like three maybe maximum six months, but a vision can be it can be a document. Um I think it's more helpful when it is visual. So, I do think this is like where design still has like a ton of power is being able to piece things together and make it coherent in a story for that period of time, but it can also be a prototype. Um like it doesn't need to be like yeah, this like deck that's static. It can be a prototype that just sort of helps us I think often what what what it helps us do is like we often have, you know, five teams working on something like very similar or things that collide um or might feel duplicative and what design can really do is like curate and help bring cohesion to those ideas and show us a path towards like making that an ideal experience as opposed to five disparate ones.

对对对对。我是说，我去年大概也做过一份北极星愿景的 deck。嗯，所以我觉得这种愿景还是有它的空间的，它能给大家指明一个方向，让我们对要做的事情有清晰的认知。不过我觉得，至少在我工作的地方，这个技术真的是时时刻刻在变，新模型层出不穷，而且新模型出来的速度基本上是越来越快。所以我觉得根本不存在所谓的『一年期愿景』，更别说两年、五年的愿景了，因为太多东西是未知的。但真正还有用的，是让大家朝同一个方向使劲，尤其是在『谁都能造出任何东西』的当下。所以我现在理解的愿景，更多是三个月、最多六个月的尺度，而且愿景可以是一份文档。我觉得它做成可视化的会更有用。所以我确实认为这正是 design 仍然很有力量的地方——能把各种东西拼到一起，在那个时间段里把它们串成一个连贯的故事。但它也可以是一个原型。嗯，它不一定非得是那种静态的 deck，可以是一个原型，帮我们……我觉得它常常能帮我们做的事是：我们经常会有五个团队在做某件很类似的事，或者做的东西会撞车、感觉重复，而 design 真正能做的，就是去策划、把这些想法整合出连贯性，给我们指出一条把它做成理想体验的路，而不是变成五个各自为政的版本。

[37:20] Peter Yang

Yeah, that that makes sense. That makes sense. And and and and how about like with um do you guys have like reviews of um and like for folks like that? Like is there like formal reviews or they're also like playing with the prototypes, too?

嗯，这说得通，说得通。那你们呢，关于……你们会有那种评审吗？对那类东西来说，会有正式的评审，还是说大家也是在玩原型？

[37:30] Jenny Wen

Uh no, we do still have reviews. Uh I we don't have them for you know, I've been at companies where we have them for like every single feature and whatnot. Um it happens for sort of like bigger you know, higher priority projects. Um but it doesn't feel like it is it is a big sort of like thing you have to prepare for and spend so much time on. Um it's mostly for that visibility and for that feedback. And if there's things that sort of cross are are big and have like big company-wide implications, we'll we'll have those reviews. Yeah.

呃，不，我们还是有评审的。我……我们不是对每个功能都搞评审。我待过那种每一个功能都要评审的公司。嗯，我们的评审是针对那些比较大、优先级比较高的项目。但它感觉不像是一件你得花大力气准备、花很多时间去搞的大事。它主要是为了让大家看见进展、为了拿到反馈。如果有些事情跨度大、对全公司有重大影响，我们就会做那种评审。对。

[38:02] Peter Yang

Got it. Okay. Well, I mean do you have any closing words of advice for designers who maybe like, you know, they kind of feel like the ground is shifting under their feet? Like should they should they start start like submitting PRs or like what what what what should the designers do?

明白了。好。那，我是说，对于那些可能觉得脚下的地在松动的设计师们，你有没有什么临别的建议？他们是不是应该开始去提 PR 之类的？设计师们到底该怎么做？

[38:15] Jenny Wen

Yeah, I mean if you feel like the ground is shifting beneath your feet, it's because it is. You know, it's because it is. And I think at this point you have to just accept that, you know, and sort of adapt to it and just be really open towards like questioning the way that we work already. I I think it's it's coming for it's coming for designers right now and I think we're feeling it today a lot because a lot of like the roles around us have changed already and we're like the second tier effect for it. But also I think the the tooling for us is also changing. And whenever I feel sort of like sometimes I am like sort of threatened. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, my job is is changing a lot. Like people don't value me in the same ways that I I used to be valued." But then I think about like my engineering peers and how much that they have already adapted towards how much their job has changed and how like valiantly they've they've they've gotten through it and how much they are still they're they're producing even better and more work today. And so I look at them as inspiration. I'm like, "Oh, like if all these people that I really respect can do it and and do it in a way with such a humility that I can too. And and and I sort of see them as a model for like what's coming next for me.

对，我是说，如果你觉得脚下的地在松动，那是因为它确实在动。真的就是在动。我觉得到这个阶段，你只能去接受它、去适应它，并且非常开放地去质疑我们已有的工作方式。我觉得这波冲击现在正冲着设计师来，而我们今天感受特别强烈，是因为我们周围很多岗位已经先变过了，我们是受它影响的第二波。但我也觉得，我们用的工具本身也在变。每当我有点……有时候我会觉得受到威胁，心想：『天哪，我的工作变化好大，大家不再像以前那样看重我了。』但接着我会想起我那些做工程的同事，他们的工作已经变了多少，他们又是多么英勇地扛了过来，而且今天他们产出的东西更好、更多。所以我把他们当作激励。我会想：『哦，如果这些我特别尊重的人都能做到，而且是以那么谦逊的姿态做到，那我也能。』我把他们当成一个范本，去看接下来轮到我会是什么样子。

[39:32] Peter Yang

Yeah, in some ways you get rid of this a lot like mundane and busy work like moving boxes around that you don't have to do anymore, right? Like hopefully. So you can actually focus on a higher level thinking and you know, that kind of work.

对，某种程度上，你摆脱了很多枯燥的杂活、那种搬来搬去挪框框的活儿，你再也不用做了，对吧？但愿如此。这样你就能真正去专注更高层次的思考，去做那种工作。

[39:42] Jenny Wen

Yeah, or you're just producing more work too, you know? Like I I think I I think about how much my engineers are capable of of right now and I'm like yeah, that's that's wild. Like they're they're they're creating entire features in days not weeks these days. So yeah.

对，或者说你也在产出更多的东西，你懂吗？我会想我那些工程师现在能做到的事有多厉害，我就觉得，对，那太疯狂了。他们现在是用几天、而不是几周就造出一整个功能。所以，是的。

[39:57] Peter Yang

Yeah, the funny thing is you don't actually get more free time. You actually work harder.

对，有意思的是，你其实并没有得到更多空闲时间，你反而工作得更拼了。

[40:02] Jenny Wen

I mean, like it's because I think we're all really ambitious and we like we it's like a high. You're like, "Oh my gosh, I can get so much done now and I and I don't have to do the stuff that I didn't like doing before." And so let me do more.

我是说，那是因为我觉得我们都特别有野心，而且这就像一种快感。你会想：『天哪，我现在能搞定这么多事，而且那些我以前不喜欢做的活儿也不用做了。』那我就多做一点呗。

[40:16] Peter Yang

Yeah, yeah.

对，对。

[40:17] Jenny Wen

Yeah.

对。

[40:17] Peter Yang

Yeah. No, that's good. That makes my job more fun. Okay. Well, well, thanks so much, Jenny. This is awes- awesome. I feel like we've been talking online for a while and I finally got to talk to you. Yeah, it's been great.

对。不，这挺好的。这让我的工作更有意思了。好。那，太感谢你了，Jenny。这真是太棒了。感觉我们在线上聊了挺久，今天终于能跟你当面聊上了。对，这真的很愉快。

[40:27] Jenny Wen

It's been great to have this conversation.

能有这次对话真的很棒。