I Watched 6 AI Agents Design an App Together And It Blew My Mind | Tom Krcha

频道: Peter Yang
视频: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4RY7PnfRU8
原文语言: en
统计: 共 50 轮 · Peter Yang 9 · Tom Krcha 25

[0:00] Peter Yang

Those cursors? It seems like a small touch, but it's the first time I have seen AI humanized. It feels like there's someone there. It's crazy, it's just a cursor. But there's like so much more we can do. Just seeing these cursors here is like pretty amazing. As soon as you click on pen file inside cursor, it opens in this like visual editor. That's my main point, too, dude. So, see how fast it was? This is composer. It's really amazing. Here we go. So, this is the generated basically React Next.js website from that design. We launched them full GA 2 weeks ago, got 100,000 users now. It shows you that actually like craft and care still matter. I think I would not be as blown away if those cursors were not on the screen and there wasn't like a Asian chat right below. Okay, hey everyone. I'm really excited today to host Tom. Tom is the CEO of Pencil, which is generally one of the most exciting AI products I've ever seen. Like it basically is a product where a swarm of AI agents can design anything they want.

那些光标？看起来只是个小细节，但这是我第一次见到 AI 被「人格化」。感觉真的有个「人」在那儿，太疯狂了，明明就只是个光标而已。但我们能做的还有很多很多。光是看到这些光标在屏幕上动，就已经挺震撼的了。你只要在 cursor 里点开 pen 文件，它就会在这个可视化编辑器里打开。这也正是我想说的，老兄。看到没，速度多快？这就是 composer，真的太厉害了。来吧。这就是从那个设计稿生成出来的 React Next.js 网站。我们两周前正式全量上线（full GA），现在已经有十万用户了。这说明手艺和用心其实还是有价值的。我觉得，如果屏幕上没有那些光标、下面也没有那种亚洲风格的聊天框，我大概不会这么被震撼到。好，大家好。今天我特别兴奋能请到 Tom。Tom 是 Pencil 的 CEO，这基本上是我见过最让人兴奋的 AI 产品之一。它本质上是一款产品，一群 AI agent 可以在里面设计出任何它们想要的东西。

[0:58]

[laughter]

（笑）

[0:59] Peter Yang

And yeah, I I was blown away by it. I was generally blown away. Um so, welcome, Tom. Hi everyone. Thanks, Peter, for having me. This is exciting. Yeah. You know, I I showed your product to my designer, and then she shared it with all the design group. Uh and then they were like, "Hmm, should we like be worried about our jobs or what's going [laughter] on here?" So, so yeah, dude. It was It was amazing. Yeah. Awesome. Why don't we just show the people here like how amazing it is? Do do you want to like just try try it? I'm just going to share my screen real quick, and uh this is Pencil. Uh it's an app that works on Windows, Linux, Mac, and we also have plugins for VS Code, Cursor, Antigravity, Windsurf, and all of the VS Code based IDEs, you know, and it works really well with Claude Code and Codeax and all of the existing agents. And a lot of people actually, like to my surprise, they want to bring their own agents, so they've been using it with open code and all sorts of different CLIs that I've even never heard about, you know. So, you can essentially like make it yours, plug in your own agent, you know. But, you know, this is how it looks like. So, it's it's like a design tool. So, you can create like a frame and you can like manually start designing here. But like now in this age of AI, why don't we invite, you know, AI to design something for us? So,

是的，我当时真的被它惊到了，是发自内心地被震撼。嗯，所以，欢迎你，Tom。（Tom：）大家好，谢谢 Peter 邀请我，太激动了。（Peter：）是这样，我把你的产品给我们的设计师看，然后她转发到了整个设计群里。然后他们就在那儿说：「嗯……我们是不是该担心自己的饭碗了，这到底是怎么回事啊？」（笑）所以说啊，老兄，真的太惊艳了。（Tom：）太棒了。（Peter：）那我们干脆直接给大家演示一下它到底有多厉害吧？你愿不愿意现场试试看？（Tom：）我先快速分享一下我的屏幕，这就是 Pencil。它是一款能在 Windows、Linux、Mac 上运行的 app，我们也有针对 VS Code、Cursor、Antigravity、Windsurf 以及所有基于 VS Code 的 IDE 的插件。它和 Claude Code、Codex 还有现有的各种 agent 都配合得很好。让我意外的是，很多人其实想自带自己的 agent，所以他们一直在用 open code 之类的工具，还有各种我连听都没听说过的 CLI。所以你基本上可以把它变成你自己的，接上你自己的 agent。总之，它大概就长这样。它就是个设计工具，你可以新建一个 frame，然后在这里手动开始设计。但在如今这个 AI 时代，我们何不直接邀请 AI 来帮我们设计点东西呢？那么——

[2:21]

[clears throat]

（清嗓子）

[2:21] Tom Krcha

what do we want to design, Peter? Tell me. You know, I think too like a lot of really cool countries and places and I want to keep like a travel log of places I've been, you know, like yeah. Most places are more fun than America. So,

我们想设计点什么呢，Peter？告诉我。（Peter：）我在想，有好多特别酷的国家和地方，我想做一个旅行日志，记录我去过的地方。是的，大多数地方都比美国好玩。所以——

[2:33]

[laughter]

（笑）

[2:35] Peter Yang

So, design a mobile app for, you know, travel log and booking or whatever. Use beautiful imagery and photos of cities in Oceania maybe.

那就设计一个手机 app 吧，主题是旅行日志加预订之类的。用一些漂亮的图片，放些大洋洲城市的照片。

[2:52]

[laughter]

（笑）

[2:53] Tom Krcha

Sure. And, you know, do you want to like uh you You got to turn on the You got to turn on the swarm mode. Yeah, yeah, let's do that, you know. So, you can obviously let one agent design. But like one of the most exciting things that we have recently shipped is that you can use pearl agents. So, um we can just choose the amount of agents we want, you know. Like let's actually use six, you know. So, uh design three screens, two agents working on each screen. Yeah, and then, you know, you can also pick like a style guide that you want to go with or you can let uh the agent to pick one for you. So, let's you know, let's get surprised actually. Let's get surprised, you know. It's going to pick something for us. So, now it's going to start the agent. It's going to analyze the request and it's going to create a to-do list for us. And uh it's going to pick a style guide and it's going to distribute the work across all of these agents, you know. So, now we have Claude Opus 4.6 working. And it's going to start these like sub agents and uh they're going to start communicating to each other and start designing for us, you know, so yeah, now we can see the cursor phantom over there. And it's going to start the agents and yeah, start designing. So It's going to start It's going to start six sub agents, right? And you get them names like Ember. Yeah, actually like a lot of people ask like can we like customize the names of these agents, you know, so now I'm working on this feature where you will be able to name them, you know, as whoever you want, you know, maybe your friends or whoever. So yeah, should be fun. Yeah, dude, like I mean just just just seeing this like seeing these cursors here is like pretty pretty amazing. Yeah.

没问题。然后呢，你要不要……你得把蜂群模式（swarm mode）打开。（Peter：）对对，我们来试试这个。（Tom：）你当然可以只让一个 agent 来设计。但我们最近上线的最让人兴奋的功能之一，就是你可以用一群并行的 agent。我们可以直接选要用多少个 agent。要不咱们就用六个吧。那就是设计三个屏幕，每个屏幕两个 agent 一起做。然后呢，你也可以自己挑一套想用的风格指南（style guide），或者让 agent 帮你挑一套。要不咱们就来点惊喜，让它给我们挑。它会帮我们选一套。好，现在它要启动 agent 了。它会分析这个需求，然后给我们生成一个待办清单（to-do list），再挑一套风格指南，把工作分配给所有这些 agent。现在 Claude Opus 4.6 开始干活了。它会启动这些子智能体（sub agent），它们会互相沟通，开始帮我们设计。看，现在能看到那边的幻影光标了。它要启动这些 agent 了，然后开始设计。（Peter：）它会启动六个子智能体，对吧？你还给它们起名字，比如 Ember。（Tom：）对，其实很多人都问能不能自定义这些 agent 的名字，所以我现在正在做这个功能，以后你可以随便给它们起名，叫你朋友的名字什么的都行。应该挺好玩的。（Peter：）是啊老兄，我是说，光是看着这个，光是看到这些光标在这儿动，就已经挺震撼的了。（Tom：）对。

[4:35]

[laughter]

（笑）

[4:36] Tom Krcha

Yeah, [snorts] you know, like it's it's really interesting because like we we had this whole parallelism kind of built and I was like man, but I have like no idea which agent is working on what, you know, so even for debugging purposes, I was like why don't we just like put a cursors there so we can like see who is working on what and then we can like debug if something went wrong, you know, and like we built it and I was like oh my gosh, like this is magic. It feels It's like it's so humanized, you know, like like AI usually is just like very it doesn't feel like, you know, one of us essentially, which it isn't, you know, but like these cursors like working on that screen on that canvas, it really feels like there's like actually someone behind it, you know, making these changes. And is it just generating code that looks like this or is it actually is it like doing something else? So it's it's it's generating basically like a descriptor for the design and then what you can do, you can essentially ask it what kind of code you want to convert it into because like we wanted to make sure that it's sort of platform agnostic. Okay. For instance, like this you want to convert into Swift iOS or Kotlin because it's a mobile app or React Native. So it wouldn't really make sense to like generate this in like HTML and CSS because like this will go to Swift, you know, or whatever. So, we have this platform-agnostic file format. We call it dot pen. It's essentially just JSON-based format. We wanted to really build this format to be like agentic from the ground up. And yeah, so we have a documentation for that format on our website. You can build plugins around it. People have started building all sorts of different converters. Uh we have seen a plugin

对，（笑）你知道吗，这事儿特别有意思，因为我们把整套并行机制都搭好了之后，我当时想，天哪，我根本不知道哪个 agent 在做什么。所以哪怕只是为了调试，我就想，不如直接放几个光标在那儿，这样就能看到谁在做什么，万一出了问题也能调试。然后我们就做了出来，做完我心想：我的天，这简直就是魔法。它太「人格化」了，你懂吗，AI 平时给人的感觉就很……不像是「我们中的一员」，它本来也确实不是，但这些光标在那个屏幕、那块画布上动来动去，真的让人觉得背后好像真有个人在做这些改动。（Peter：）那它只是生成了长这样的代码，还是说它其实在做别的什么？（Tom：）它生成的其实是设计的一种「描述符」（descriptor），然后你可以让它把这个描述转换成你想要的任何代码，因为我们想确保它是跨平台、与平台无关的。比如说这个，你想转成 Swift iOS，或者因为是手机 app 转成 Kotlin，又或者 React Native。所以把它生成成 HTML 和 CSS 其实没什么意义，因为这个最终要变成 Swift 之类的东西。所以我们有这套与平台无关的文件格式，我们叫它 .pen，本质上就是个基于 JSON 的格式。我们一开始就想把这个格式从底层就设计成「为 agent 而生」的。我们网站上有这个格式的文档，你可以围绕它做插件。已经有人开始做各种各样的转换器了。我们见过一个插件——

[6:16] Tom Krcha

that converts pen file into Figma and into lovable and into like all sorts of different things, you know, and so on. So, yeah. Got it. And we'll we'll get to that, you know, so maybe after this weekend design a website for this Mhm. and uh ask it to actually generate code for us and look at that. This episode is brought to you by Linear. When engineers use tools like Cursor, Clock Code, and Codex, a lot of work happens invisibly. Someone can go from a bug report in Slack to a shipped fix without creating any record of what happened outside of the code editor. And that's fine for speed, but it makes coordination harder as you scale. Linear integrates with the very best agent [music] coding tools directly like Cursor and Codex. That way, anyone can see what an agent is working on and who assigned them to the task. You get the speed of agents without losing visibility across the team. Product teams at OpenAI, Ramp, and Block are all using Linear to collaborate with AI agents. And I use Linear myself to run my creator business. So, check it out at linear.app/agents. That's linear.app/agents. Now, back to our episode. And how are you getting the images is like using nano banana or something?

——能把 pen 文件转成 Figma、转成 lovable，还有各种各样别的东西。（Peter：）懂了。（Tom：）这个我们待会儿再讲。也许这周末之后，我们用它给这个设计一个网站，然后让它真的帮我们生成代码，看看效果。（广告——Peter：）本期节目由 Linear 赞助。当工程师在用 Cursor、Claude Code、Codex 这类工具时，很多工作是在「看不见」的地方发生的。有人可能从 Slack 里的一个 bug 报告，到修复上线，整个过程在代码编辑器之外没有留下任何记录。追求速度这没问题，但随着规模扩大，协作就变难了。Linear 能直接和最顶尖的 agent 编码工具集成，比如 Cursor 和 Codex。这样一来，任何人都能看到某个 agent 正在做什么、是谁把任务分配给它的。你既能享受 agent 的速度，又不会丢掉整个团队的可见性。OpenAI、Ramp、Block 的产品团队都在用 Linear 来和 AI agent 协作。我自己也用 Linear 来运营我的创作者生意。去 linear.app/agents 看看吧，就是 linear.app/agents。好，回到我们的节目。（Peter：）那你们的图片是怎么来的，是用 nano banana 之类的吗？

[7:26] Tom Krcha

Yeah, yeah. You know, you can you can plug in all sorts of different image generators. We have a few of them and we're always like checking out what's the latest best, you know, and plug the best one in there. So, yeah. This is great, dude. You You should You know what you should do? You should introduce some more banter between these agents. They're right right now they're just kind of like saying You should You should have them like argue with each other. Yeah, that'd be really cool.

对对。你知道吗，你可以接各种不同的图片生成器。我们内置了几个，而且我们一直在关注最新最好的是哪个，然后把最好的接进来。就是这样。（Peter：）这太棒了，老兄。你知道你该做什么吗？你应该让这些 agent 之间多来点互怼的对话。它们现在只是干巴巴地在那儿说……你应该让它们互相吵起来。（Tom：）对，那肯定特酷。

[7:49]

[laughter]

（笑）

[7:50] Tom Krcha

Yeah. They should actually speak, you know, why not? Like we should plug in some 11 Labs or something and they should just talk to you.

对，它们其实应该能开口说话，为什么不呢？我们应该接个 11 Labs 之类的，让它们直接跟你对话。

[7:57]

[laughter]

（笑）

[7:57] Peter Yang

Yeah, that'd be amazing. And and and this swarm feature is pretty new, right? Like it only was released like last week or something. Yeah, actually this week. It I mean this week has been so long, you know, so much has happened. But it went out on Tuesday and it already went viral and you've seen it, right? And thank you so much for the for the tweet, by the way. I was like so shocked when I saw it, so it was amazing. Um No, yeah, it's it's amazing. Like I I I think maybe previously the product only had one cursor, I guess. It didn't have any cursors. It was just like an agent putting things in. You could run like multiple chats and they would like start working kind of in parallel, but it wasn't like the true parallelism. It was useful when you wanted to like spin out a different variation or or something like that. And like So for instance like here what I can do is like I can now basically say like actually redesign this into like this style. So what I can now do is like redesign the screens into this style and it's going to go and it's going to, you know, read the style guide and and start working on it. And then obviously, you know, in the demo what I was showing um online, we had like agents working on social media graphics, website, and mobile app sort of in tandem at the same time. So like you can go really easily within like minutes from just an idea into something where you can just collect the thoughts. And one of the things that where this is really interesting is that sometimes you don't even know what you you to build. And like people today like, really quickly jump into Cloud or like, um uh you know, one of these uh live coding apps and start building an app. But like, you don't even know if you want to build it, you know? And like, what if

对，那肯定太赞了。那这个蜂群（swarm）功能是挺新的，对吧？好像就上周才发布的？（Tom：）其实是这周。我是说这周感觉好长，发生了太多事。但它是周二上线的，然后立马就爆了，你也看到了对吧？顺便说一句，太谢谢你那条推文了。我看到的时候简直惊呆了，太棒了。（Peter：）不不，是真的很厉害。我觉得这产品之前可能只有一个光标吧。（Tom：）之前一个光标都没有。就只是一个 agent 在往里放东西。你可以同时跑好几个聊天，它们会差不多算是并行地开始干活，但那不是真正的并行。它在你想分出一个不同变体之类的时候挺有用的。比如说在这儿我现在能做的是——我现在可以直接说，把这个重新设计成这种风格。所以我现在能做的，就是把这些屏幕重新设计成这种风格，它就会去读那套风格指南，然后开始干。然后显然，我之前在网上演示的那个 demo 里，我们让一群 agent 同时并行地做社交媒体图、网站和手机 app。所以你真的可以在短短几分钟之内，从一个想法走到一个能让你把思路收拢起来的东西。这里特别有意思的一点是，有时候你自己都不知道想做什么。现在很多人很快就一头扎进 Claude，或者某个实时编码（live coding）app，开始就建 app。但你其实都还不确定自己到底想不想做这个，对吧？要是说——

[9:46] Tom Krcha

there's like multiple things that you wanted to do actually completely differently, and so on? So, think of Pencil as this like visual planning mode of sorts. You know how you have like plan mode in Cloud Code and in in Kursor. So, this is like the visual planning mode where you can like visually plan things, and then you can sort of uh once you decided, this is what I want, you know, then sure, awesome. Like, build me this. Yeah, this is interesting cuz I I I think any real designer is not just going to design one thing. Like, they want to they want to diverge and explore a whole bunch of different op- options. And then they kind of converge into what they actually want, right? So, Yeah.

——其实有好几个方向，你本来想用完全不同的方式去做，等等等等？所以你可以把 Pencil 想成一种「可视化的规划模式」。你知道 Claude Code 和 Cursor 里都有 plan mode 吧。这就是那种可视化的规划模式，你可以直观地把东西规划出来，然后等你决定了「就是这个，这就是我想要的」，那好，太棒了，就跟它说「帮我把这个做出来」。（Peter：）这点很有意思，因为我觉得任何一个真正的设计师都不会只设计一个方案。他们想要发散、探索一大堆不同的选项，然后再收敛到他们真正想要的那个，对吧？（Tom：）对。

[10:22] Peter Yang

So, yeah. So, like, you know, be able to kind of explore different designs. Like, ideally, actually, you can I I can actually look at the designs side by side and just like pick pick one. Exactly. You know, and this this is this is the constant feedback that I've been hearing from a lot of folks, you know? And I think a lot of the live coding platforms, they basically are very like linear and sort of serial. Like, you do one thing, and you click in one thing, but like, actually, you want like 20 different variations, compare them side by side, maybe divert, branch, and so on. And like, I have seen tons of design files throughout my life, and like, all the designers, they have like crazy mess in their files because it's exploratory mode, you know? You're just like iterating. You're trying different things. You're comparing. You're copy-pasting a lot. And then, once you decide, you're like, this is it, then you make a spec and sort of like a PRD around that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And and um And anyway, though, I'm I'm I'm I'm just watching this now. I'm I'm still blown away by it.

所以呢，就是能去探索不同的设计方案。最理想的情况其实是，我能把这些设计并排放在一起看，然后直接挑一个出来。（Tom：）正是如此。这也是我从很多人那儿一直听到的反馈。我觉得很多实时编码平台基本上都非常线性、串行——你做一件事，点一个东西，但其实你想要的是二十个不同的变体，并排比较，也许还能岔出去、分支等等。我这辈子见过无数设计文件，所有设计师的文件里都乱成一团，因为那是探索模式，你就是在不停迭代、尝试不同的东西、做比较、大量复制粘贴。然后一旦你拍板「就是它了」，你才会围绕它写个规格说明、做个类似 PRD 的东西。（Peter：）对，正是这样。（Tom：）是的。（Peter：）不管怎么说，我现在就这么看着它，还是被它震撼到了。

[11:20]

[laughter]

（笑）

[11:20] Peter Yang

I I I do think I I do think the cursors in the UI makes a huge difference. Like, it first first cuz if I use Cloud Code, I I I can theoretically do this, too, but it's just generally a bunch of code that I can't see. But, you know, being able to see this happen is like a game changer. Yeah. It's It's you know, like it's actually really hard I mean like sure like little of um these five forms they're now going into parallel mode, you know? Yeah. They're like assigning different roles to different agents and so on. But I What I What I wanted really to do is to have parallelism with same roles of agents, you know? Mhm. In a way that they're doing non-conflicting changes. You know, that they figure out how to split up the work in parallel in front of me. Still use the same really powerful model like Opus, but do it like three times faster because they were able to essentially um split the work. Yeah. And And this something that I like human can actually look at and understand, you know?

我确实觉得，UI 里的这些光标带来的差别太大了。首先，因为如果我用 Claude Code，理论上我也能做到这些，但那不过是一堆我看不见的代码而已。但你知道吗，能亲眼看到这一切发生，简直是革命性的改变。（Tom：）对。其实这挺难的，我是说，没错，现在这几个 agent 进入并行模式了。（Peter：）嗯。（Tom：）它们在给不同的 agent 分配不同的角色等等。但我真正想做的，是让一群「角色相同」的 agent 并行，让它们做互不冲突的改动，让它们当着我的面自己想清楚怎么把工作拆开并行。还是用 Opus 这种特别强的模型，但因为能把活儿拆开，速度快上三倍。（Peter：）对。（Tom：）而且这是人真的能看懂、能理解的东西，你懂吗？

[12:18]

[laughter]

（笑）

[12:19] Peter Yang

Yeah. Like, you know, if I use copilot, I I can spin up like three different terminals and have them do all the work. But, I have no idea what the hell's going on till they actually finish the work. But, right here I I can see. Yeah. Exactly. And then you're like, "Okay, cool. Um build me this. And now you can go for the coffee and come back later because you know they have the plan, they know what to build, you know? So, and that's a that's a huge difference. It's a world of difference. You actually have a website, right? You have another file with a website. So, I mentioned in the beginning that you can use pencil with all sorts of uh different tools and one of them is cursor. And cursor is really interesting because it also allows you to use like different models. Uh and you can sort of like contrast and compare. So, here we are inside of uh cursor and uh I have this um sort of file that I have built previously. And Well, hang on. Did this is actually inside Okay, so you just opened coffeeshop.pen file in cursor? Yeah, exactly. So, as soon as you click on pen file inside cursor, it opens in this like visual editor. Oh wow, that has my point too, dude. Yeah. [laughter] So we have builder and our own custom editor essentially inside cursor. And this is where we started initially, you know, and then we started building these apps around it and so on. So now this works in all of these apps. So it's basically a design tool baked into cursor, you know. And all you have to do for that is to just go to extension store and find pencil and install it and it will just start working right away. Okay, so how do we So now we have the thing. Yeah, so how do we actually build this thing? Yeah, so like one of the really cool things here is that I can

对。你知道吗，如果我用 copilot，我可以开三个不同的终端，让它们全去干活。但在它们真正干完之前，我根本不知道到底发生了什么。可是在这儿，我能看得见。（Tom：）对，正是如此。然后你就可以说「行，酷，帮我把这个做出来」，接着你就能去喝杯咖啡，回来再看，因为你知道它们有计划、知道该做什么。这就是巨大的差别，简直是天壤之别。（Peter：）你还真有一个网站，对吧？你另外有个文件就是一个网站。（Tom：）我开头提到过，你可以把 pencil 和各种各样的工具一起用，其中之一就是 cursor。cursor 特别有意思，因为它还允许你用不同的模型，你可以对比、比较。所以现在我们就在 cursor 里面，我有一个之前做好的文件。（Peter：）等等，这是不是其实在……好，所以你刚是在 cursor 里打开了 coffeeshop.pen 文件？（Tom：）对，正是。你只要在 cursor 里点开 pen 文件，它就会在这个可视化编辑器里打开。（Peter：）哇，这也正是我想说的，老兄。（Tom：）对。（笑）所以我们有个构建器（builder），还有我们自己的定制编辑器，就嵌在 cursor 里面。我们一开始就是从这儿做起来的，然后才开始围绕它做出这些 app。所以现在它在所有这些 app 里都能用。本质上它就是一个内嵌进 cursor 的设计工具。你要做的就只是去扩展商店里找到 pencil 装上，它马上就能用了。（Peter：）好，那我们怎么……现在东西有了。（Tom：）对，那我们到底怎么把这个真正构建出来呢？这里有个特别酷的点，就是我可以——

[14:03] Tom Krcha

use the cursor agent here. So I have like all the models here like composer for instance, you know. And composer, man, it flies. It's kind of amazing. It's super fast. So for instance like let's say I want to turn this selected frame into light mode, okay? And I'm going to like hit enter. It's going to scan that and it's going to uh start working on that. Oh wow. Okay, so like the agent can actually interact with this dot pen file. Yeah, exactly. So see how fast it was, you know? Like this is composer. It's really amazing, you know. So like that's sort of like um the flexibility you get, you know, when you're working within cursor and within other tools, you know, you can like sort of mix and match different models and so on and so on and so on and uh it's kind of nice workflow as well. And now what we can do is turn this into code, you know, which is obviously the step where we wanted to get in the first place, you know. Now we have designed everything and we're like, "Okay, I want this in the code." So for that, I'm just going to open a new chat. Let's say I pick Opus this time and I'm just going to say and I can You can actually copy this and paste it here. So now it says coffee shop pen homepage. So it's the name of that frame. And I just say like generate code for this frame uh in React Tailwind uh what was it? Node.js? Sorry, uh Next.js. And uh and run it on port 80 8080 in the browser. Okay. And now it's going to scan it. It's going to also like analyze all of these uh different parts of it and it's going to start generating code for it um from that visual representation, you know. And you can see And this is like the cursor agent here. Okay, so now it's actually generating the the HTML and everything. Yeah, now it's generating

——在这儿用 cursor 的 agent。我这里有所有这些模型，比如 composer。说真的，composer 这家伙快得飞起，简直惊人，超级快。比如说，我想把这个选中的 frame 转成浅色模式（light mode），好，我按下回车。它会扫描那个 frame，然后开始处理。（Peter：）哇，好，所以这个 agent 真的能跟这个 .pen 文件交互。（Tom：）对，正是。看它多快，对吧？这就是 composer，真的太厉害了。所以这就是你在 cursor 里、在其他工具里工作时能获得的那种灵活性——你可以混搭不同的模型等等等等，工作流也挺顺手的。接下来我们能做的，就是把它转成代码，这显然是我们一开始就想走到的那一步。现在我们把所有东西都设计好了，然后说：「好，我要把这个变成代码。」为此，我直接开一个新聊天。这次咱们就选 Opus 吧，然后我就说——其实我可以把这个复制下来粘贴到这儿。现在它显示的是 coffee shop pen homepage，这是那个 frame 的名字。我就直接说：帮这个 frame 用 React Tailwind 生成代码，呃刚才说的是 Node.js？不对，是 Next.js。然后在浏览器里跑在 8080 端口上。好。现在它要扫描了，它还会分析这个里头各个不同的部分，然后开始从那个可视化的表示里生成代码。你能看到——这就是 cursor 的 agent。（Peter：）好，所以它现在真的在生成 HTML 和所有这些东西了。（Tom：）对，现在它在生成——

[16:08] Tom Krcha

[clears throat] the HTML and React and everything and like honestly, you can decide You maybe already have an existing code base and this is where like Pencil power really comes together or to fruition because like you might already have like existing code base and uh the idea about pen file really is that it's this, you know, JSON. You I can like right click on it and I can open it in in the editor here. So, you can see it's just a JSON. So, all the Yeah, and all the agents can read it and can write it. And that was the like original idea that this is like agentic new agentic format or design format built for agents from the ground up. So, the idea is that this file goes into and in the Git like either in the cloud or with your coworkers, anybody can work with that file. You can create a library of components and so on and so on and so on. Um so, while this is working, I wanted to show you actually a couple more things. So, you can set up variables for things, which is basically just like a CSS um file, you know, um and you can use these variables across the document, you know, so at a point it just keeps using the same things. So, Also, we have like bunch of design components in here. This is for instance shad cyan and you can also just like change it to dark mode and change it to like some different tone and maybe you want like violet or green sort of accent for that. And these are like tons of different shad same components and you can So right away you can start designing with them in here. And yeah, now it's running the website. Let's see what's going to happen. And here we here we go. So this is the generated basically React Next.js website from

（清嗓子）——HTML、React 还有所有这些东西。说实话，你完全可以决定……你也许已经有了一个现成的代码库，而这正是 Pencil 的威力真正凸显出来、开花结果的地方，因为你可能已经有了现成的代码库。而 pen 文件的核心思路其实是，它就是这么个 JSON。我可以右键点它，在这儿的编辑器里打开它，你能看到它就是个 JSON。所以所有的——对，所有的 agent 都能读它、都能写它。这就是最初的那个想法：这是一种为 agent 而生、从底层就「为 agent 设计」的全新格式，或者说设计格式。所以思路是，这个文件可以进 Git，无论是在云端还是和你同事一起，任何人都能处理这个文件。你可以建一个组件库，等等等等等等。趁它还在跑，我想再给你看几样别的东西。你可以给各种东西设置变量（variables），本质上就跟一个 CSS 文件一样，然后你可以在整个文档里使用这些变量，这样到某个点它就一直在复用同样的东西。另外，我们这儿还有一堆设计组件，比如这个是 shadcn，你也可以直接把它切换成深色模式，换成别的色调，也许你想要紫色或者绿色那种强调色。这些是一大堆不同的 shadcn 组件，你马上就能用它们在这儿开始设计。好，现在网站在跑起来了，看看会发生什么。来，就是这个。这就是从那个设计稿生成出来的 React Next.js 网站——

[18:02]

[snorts]

（轻笑）

[18:02] Peter Yang

from that design that we had here, you know, and yeah, that's pretty Yeah. And and then and then if I um let's say I want to change the title or something or I move some button around. So so I just go back to the pen file, right?

就从我们刚才在这儿做的那个 design 出发，对吧，挺厉害的。那如果我，比如说我想改个标题之类的，或者把某个按钮挪一下位置，那我是不是就回到 pen 文件里去改？

[18:15] Tom Krcha

You can go to the pen file, you can change it there, you can go to code, you can also go and you know, use the cursor tools here, but you know, this is basically that source of truth, you know. So yeah. But but but if I change it in the code, does it reflect in the pen file? Is it linked?

你可以去 pen 文件里改，也可以去代码里改，还可以用这边的 cursor 工具来改，但这个本质上就是你的 single source of truth（唯一可信源）。不过——如果我在代码里改了，它会反映到 pen 文件里吗？两边是联动的吗？

[18:29] Tom Krcha

to ask LLM at that point, you know, to update it in the design because you change it in the code, you know. So like there is no like live real-time change, you know, like ideally maybe down the road, who knows, but right now you just ask LLM to tweak it. Yeah. Okay, before you were showing me the uh shad cyan. Uh so there's a bunch of design systems saved here somewhere.

这时候你得让 LLM 去处理，因为你在代码里改了，就让它同步去更新 design。所以目前还没有那种实时的双向同步，理想情况下以后说不定会有，谁知道呢，但现在你就是让 LLM 帮你去微调。好。对了，你刚才给我看的那个 shadcn——这里好像存了一堆 design system？

[18:49] Tom Krcha

Yeah, so we have bunch of design systems and there are these like pretty advanced components. Like this is a table, it has slots, so and so on. But anyways, we have these like prompt notes, which are like ready-made sort of sticky notes with different prompts that you can save into the documents. And I'm just going to stop this. It's already like finished. And uh can like prepare for my colleagues certain prompts to generate something or I have like a team of PMs or designers on my team and I want to make sure that they, you know, come from the same uh set of rules. So, here I just click run and this is going to send it to the cursor agent and it's going to start designing on this kind of it's going to read the components it needs to. See how it's like reading things and now it's going to start composing those things on on this screen right here. Oh, using the components. Yeah, using the components, exactly, you know. All right, dude, you blew my mind again.

对，我们有好几套 design system，里面有些组件已经做得相当高级了。比如这个表格，它有插槽（slot）什么的。不过先不说这个，我们还有这些 prompt 便签，就是现成的便利贴，上面写好了不同的 prompt，你可以把它们存进文档里。我先把这个停掉，它其实已经跑完了。我可以给同事准备一些用来生成东西的 prompt，比如我团队里有一帮 PM 或者设计师，我想确保他们都按同一套规则来做。所以这里我点一下「运行」，它就会把任务发给 cursor agent，然后开始在这块画布上 design，它会去读取它需要用到的组件。看，它正在读取，现在它要开始把这些东西组合到这个屏幕上了。哦，是在用现成的组件。对，就是在用组件，没错。好家伙，你又一次让我大开眼界了。

[19:46]

[laughter]

[笑]

[19:48] Tom Krcha

So, here we can say like mode and I can also turn it into dark mode. And also like while it's designing, I can, you know, start editing that which, you know, you know that, but like this this isn't this isn't like obvious for most of the people that like you can sort of like under the hands of the agent already touch the design and start changing it. And this is probably the biggest sort of shift in like how we think about this whole thing because when like a typical by coding app creates something, it's not like you can go in there and start like changing it in real time. You have to like always wait until it's done and and so on. And that kind of gets you out of the flow, whereas like this canvas workflow keeps you in the flow and that's such a major difference between like this workflow and the other workflows. Uh yeah, it's like a pain in the ass you have to prompt AI to change some text or like move some stuff around. So, it's way better to just like use it yourself. Yeah. Yeah, and that's where this idea actually started. I was like, "I just want to be able to draw some stuff and tell agent to build me this because it's so much faster for myself and many other people to just draw a button versus like describe what the padding should look like and the colors and style and all of these things. Uh should feel like because like often times you don't even know. You have to like see it first and then tweak it and then say this is what I want. Yeah. Um And and and dude like I I feel like one of the major innovations is this pen file. Like I'm I'm surprised So it is it's just JSON and it has like a bunch of like so it has like numbers for padding and stuff. Yeah. Essentially it's like a full description of um Think of this as like agentic PDF or like if if PDF was

在这里我们可以切换模式，比如我可以把它切成深色模式。而且在它 design 的同时，我还能直接上手编辑——你知道这个，但对大多数人来说这点并不直观：你可以在 agent 干活的同时就去碰这个 design、动手改它。这大概是我们对整件事的认知里最大的一个转变。因为通常一个 vibe coding 的 app 在生成东西的时候，你是没法进去实时改的，你得一直等到它跑完才行，这就把你拉出了心流状态。而这种画布式的工作流能让你一直待在心流里，这就是它跟其他工作流之间巨大的区别。是啊，那种得不停地去 prompt AI 帮你改个文字、挪个东西的方式，真的很烦人。所以还不如自己动手来得爽。对。对，其实这个想法最初就是这么来的。我当时就想，我就想随手画点东西，然后告诉 agent 帮我把它做出来。因为对我自己还有很多人来说，画一个按钮，比用语言去描述这个 padding 该多大、什么颜色、什么样式这一堆东西，要快太多了。因为很多时候你自己都说不清想要什么，你得先看到它，再去微调，然后才说「对，这就是我要的」。对。还有——老兄，我觉得最大的创新之一就是这个 pen 文件。我挺惊讶的，原来它就是个 JSON，里面有一堆比如 padding 的数值之类的。对。本质上它就是一份完整的描述。你可以把它想成一个 agentic PDF，或者说，如果 PDF 是……

[21:38] Tom Krcha

designed or built, you know, in this new era uh for uh of AI agents, this is probably how it would look like. Got it. Okay, this is super this is super awesome. Now now I'm going to ask you about like the history of this product, dude, cuz it it's like super impressive. Um How long have you been working on this? Like when did you start working on this? Yeah, we started like early last year and essentially um I was just poking around with Cursor and Claude code and all of these tools. I was building something else like this uh uh project and uh and realized like it's so much energy to write the UI to the chat and explain it to the agent how things should look and feel. Why can't I just draw it? And I looked around in different marketplaces for uh VS Code and so on and I couldn't find anything. So Mhm. quickly uh put together prototype, put it out. It got like 1 million views across like LinkedIn and and X. And uh I was like wow, this [laughter] is it seems like people have a similar problem uh so to speak and uh we got into a16z speed run, went through speed run and uh yeah, the rest is just history. We launched um like the full GA 2 weeks ago, got 100,000 users now and uh yeah, seems like uh it's it's a big problem for people. Uh [snorts] 100,000 users is it mostly like um like designers, entrepreneurs, or companies, or all of the above? Yeah, this was also like surprising to me. So, I think

……在 AI agent 这个新时代里被设计、被构建出来的，那它大概就长这样。懂了。好，这真的太酷了。那现在我想问问这个产品的发展史，老兄，因为它实在太牛了。你做这个做了多久了？什么时候开始的？嗯，我们大概是去年年初开始的。当时我就是在拿 Cursor、Claude Code 这些工具瞎捣鼓，在做另外一个项目，然后我意识到：把 UI 写进聊天框、再跟 agent 解释这东西该长什么样、什么感觉，太费劲了，我为什么不能直接画出来呢？我就去 VS Code 之类的各种市场里找，结果啥也没找到。于是我很快攒了个原型发出去，结果在 LinkedIn 和 X 上加起来拿了一百万的浏览量。我当时就想，哇——看来大家都有类似的困扰。然后我们进了 a16z 的 speedrun，跑完了 speedrun，再后来的事就众所周知了。我们两周前刚做了完整的 GA（正式发布），现在已经有十万用户了，看来这确实是大家普遍都有的一个痛点。十万用户啊，主要是设计师、创业者，还是公司，还是都有？嗯，这点也让我挺意外的，我觉得……

[23:11]

[clears throat]

[清嗓子]

[23:12] Tom Krcha

Marc Andreessen was just recently talking about this Mexican standoff between like PMs and uh designers and engineers. You probably heard it, right? Yeah. And um I think we're essentially all becoming makers. Uh designers graduating into design engineers, engineers now wanting to tackle more things than just code, essentially just like managing and running full projects or full sections of projects. And now PMs are feeling like so empowered to be able to create. And also like it goes way beyond that. Um a friend of mine uh just recently called me and he's like, "Man, I love Pencil. I've been using it." I was like, "What? You?" He's a marketer, you know, like he he's a guy who works um uh as a marketing guy within this company. And he's like, "I love it. Like I picked up Cloud Code immediately." By the way, Cloud Code in desktop app, you know, not even in terminal. And he uses that with Pencil and he completely rebuilt website, marketing materials, ads, um you know, PDFs, they they use like technical specs uh for for sales people, and so on. I was like, "Wow." So, essentially is this AI design canvas right in middle of everything and uh you can you kind of make it yours, honestly. Like obviously we have like advanced components and uh all sorts of different things for enterprises. We have like enterprises using that for for this specific purpose like um convert their design systems into pen format and make sure that it lives in the Git. This is the source of truth for everybody now. But there's like more and more of these uh people who like had no preconception of like coding and are now picking up coding thanks to Pencil as well. I mean, this is so much of more fun than, you know, uh writing code by hand or even as a designer like making

Marc Andreessen 最近正好聊到 PM、设计师和工程师之间那种「墨西哥式对峙」（三方僵持）的局面，你应该听过吧？听过。我觉得本质上我们正在都变成「创造者」。设计师升级成了 design engineer（设计工程师），工程师现在想搞的不只是写代码，而是想去管理、运营整个项目或者项目里的大块。而 PM 现在也感到自己被极大地赋能了，能够亲手去创造东西。而且远不止这些。我一个朋友最近给我打电话，说：「哥们儿，我太爱 Pencil 了，我一直在用。」我说：「啥？你？」他是个做营销的，在一家公司里干市场。他说：「我超爱它，我一上手就把 Claude Code 学会了。」对了，他用的是桌面 app 版的 Claude Code，根本不是在终端里跑。他就拿它配合 Pencil，把网站、营销素材、广告、PDF 全都重做了一遍，他们还会给销售做技术规格说明书之类的。我当时就想，哇。所以本质上这个 AI design 画布正处在一切的正中心，你可以把它变成完全属于你自己的东西，说真的。当然我们也有给企业用的高级组件和各种各样的功能，有些企业就专门拿它来把自己的 design system 转成 pen 格式，确保它存活在 Git 里——现在这就是所有人的唯一可信源了。但同时也有越来越多本来对写代码毫无概念的人，因为 Pencil 也开始上手写代码了。我是说，这比手写代码有意思太多了，哪怕作为设计师，比起去……

[25:07] Tom Krcha

all those layers and like drawing some boxes. Yeah, this is way more fun, man. And often times like so how many people told me like um man like I had uh like five projects in a drawer, I didn't get to them and now I'm finally like thanks to Pencil like seeing them through because it's so much fun just like see what it could look like. And uh with a lot of these other tools it's you know, like you run into these errors like couldn't compile something and like a lot of the people are deterred by that and like they just give up uh versus like in Pencil you can just see it. Does it make sense? Cool, you know, let's proceed further. Doesn't make sense? Fine, you scrape it, you know, but at least now you know. Yeah, and and there's like so many vibe coding tools out there, but yours is one of the first that actually is visual first. And and like I think that makes a lot of difference. Like um and and do do you know if like I can actually collaborate with other people in this thing too, you know, along with the AI agents?

……搭那一层层的图层、画那些框框，这有意思多了，老兄。而且很多时候，好多人跟我说，「哥们儿，我抽屉里压了五个项目，一直没动，现在多亏了 Pencil，我终于能把它们做完了」，因为光是看看它做出来会是什么样，就已经特别有意思了。而用很多别的工具，你会动不动就撞上各种报错，比如「某某东西编译不过」，很多人就被这个劝退了，直接放弃。而在 Pencil 里你就能直接看到结果：说得通吗？酷，那咱接着往下做。说不通？行，那就推倒重来。但至少现在你心里有数了。对，外面 vibe coding 的工具一大堆，但你这个是头一批真正「视觉优先」的，我觉得这点带来了很大的不同。那个——你知道我能不能在这个东西里跟别人一起协作吗？就是除了跟 AI agent 之外，还能跟真人一起协作？

[26:01] Tom Krcha

Yeah, we don't have like multiplayer per se uh right now. Not yet.

嗯，我们目前还没有那种严格意义上的多人实时协作，还没有。

[26:06] Tom Krcha

Yet. Yeah, and uh but what you can what how we have seen people mostly collaborate is through Git. They and also like if you talk to a lot of designers they they tell you that um it's like a great way to hand off things uh to devs and uh and so on. So, yeah. Yeah. Okay, dude. Well, I mean, were you always an entrepreneur or I should do my research about you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh before this I worked on this app called Around. Uh it was like a video conferencing app um Okay. It was like these little circles uh on the desktop. You would use them on top of like different multiplayer tools. It was very popular during COVID. Uh you could like put a filter on and and so on. We had like games in there. Uh a lot of startups and teams were using it for collaboration. It was more fun than Zoom. And um Miro acquired that and uh yeah, and you know, even before that I had another startup in like 3D avatar space, and before that I worked at Adobe for like a decade, you know, so. And before that, yeah, I was an evangelist for for like the creative cloud products, and I worked on design tools as well, you know, so. Got it. Before that, like my parents had a design agency, so when I was a kid, I would always like hang out with the designers in the design agency, and they would teach me how to use like different tools from like I started using Photoshop when I was like seven, then like CorelDRAW, Illustrator, InDesign, PageMaker, all of these tools, and eventually I was like, I don't like necessarily print design, because like web was sort of like starting to happen in like late '90s. And so I started picking up all sorts of things like HTML and PHP and and so on, and but eventually I fell in love with Flash, because it was like this first app where you could like design and code

暂时还没。对，不过我们看到大家主要是通过 Git 来协作的。还有，你要是跟很多设计师聊，他们会告诉你，这是一种把东西交接给开发的绝佳方式。所以，是这样。对。好，老兄。那——你一直都是创业者吗？我应该好好查查你的背景的。对对对。在这个之前我做过一个叫 Around 的 app，是个视频会议 app，桌面上那种一个个小圆圈，你可以把它们叠在各种多人协作工具上面用。它在 COVID 期间特别火，你可以给自己加滤镜什么的，里面还有小游戏。很多创业公司和团队拿它来协作，比 Zoom 有意思。后来 Miro 把它收购了。再往前我还做过一个 3D 虚拟形象方向的创业项目，再之前我在 Adobe 干了差不多十年。最早我是给 Creative Cloud 那套产品做布道师（evangelist）的，也做过设计工具。懂了。再往前——我父母开了一家设计公司，所以我小时候就老跟设计公司里的设计师们待在一起，他们会教我用各种工具。我七岁就开始用 Photoshop 了，然后是 CorelDRAW、Illustrator、InDesign、PageMaker 这一堆。后来我发现我其实不太喜欢印刷设计，因为那会儿正好是九十年代末，web 开始兴起了。于是我就开始捡起各种东西，HTML、PHP 什么的。但最后我爱上了 Flash，因为它是第一个能让你既做设计又写代码的 app……

[27:49] Tom Krcha

Yeah. at the same time, and I think for a lot of people it really enabled them to be creative. And uh I think ever since Flash we haven't necessarily seen a similar paradigm where you would be like designing coding in one place, and I think now with byte coding Yeah.

对。……能同时进行的，我觉得对很多人来说，它真的让他们得以发挥创造力。而我觉得自 Flash 之后，我们就再没怎么见过那种类似的范式——能在同一个地方又设计又写代码。我觉得现在有了 vibe coding，对。

[28:09] Tom Krcha

to happen again. Because suddenly it became like too complex in a way, like it was like all these frameworks and like backends and so on. And now byte coding brings a lot of that initial fun we used to have back in the times before all these complexities happened. And different platforms and screens and responsiveness and mobile and this and that, you remember all of that, right? So.

……这种事又有可能重新发生了。因为后来这一切某种程度上变得太复杂了，全是各种框架、后端什么的。而现在 vibe coding 把我们当年那种最初的乐趣又找回来了，就是在这一堆复杂度、各种平台、各种屏幕、响应式、移动端这个那个出现之前的那种乐趣，这些你都还记得吧？所以。

[28:30] Tom Krcha

Yeah. Uh up until this point, and specifically up until this point like maybe like November, December last year when these agents really started to become incredibly powerful, now anybody can build like a mobile app almost, you know, like not saying that like it's going to be the best app in the world and they're going to ship it like necessarily and it's going to be secure and everything, but like they can build things and like that wasn't necessarily possible before. So, yeah. Okay, got it. Okay. Okay, just last question, like how how are you building this company cuz you know, you're right in the thick of things. And how are you building this company with AI, you know, like AI agents or like which part which parts are humans touching which parts is AI do do do do it? Like how are we building the company or Or like the the sorry, the product the product. Yeah. I would say like Honestly, like a lot of a lot of the ideas I mean like I have like long history long history of like building these kind of experiences and tools and products from the past. Yeah. So, it's like a personal passion almost and I think for a lot of the folks on the team is the same thing. A bunch of us worked on kind of like similar things in the past or 2D and 3D [snorts] tooling and so on. So, it's it's a personal passion for for a lot of us. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Awesome, dude. Um What's what's next, man? You're going to you're going to May may maybe Adobe will try to acquire you. You better be careful.

对。在这之前，尤其是在这之前——大概到去年十一月、十二月，这些 agent 真正开始变得无比强大之后，现在几乎任何人都能做出一个移动 app 了。我不是说那一定会是世界上最棒的 app，也不是说他们一定会把它发布出去、一定安全无虞，但他们确实能做出东西来了，而这在以前是不太可能的。所以，对。好，懂了。好。好，最后一个问题：你是怎么搭建这家公司的？因为你现在正身处风暴中心。你是怎么用 AI 来搭建这家公司的，比如 AI agent，哪些部分是人在做、哪些是 AI 在做？是「我们怎么搭建这家公司」还是——抱歉，是产品，怎么搭建这个产品。对。我会说，老实讲，很多很多的点子——我是说，我在过去有很长很长一段历史在做这类体验、工具和产品。对。所以这几乎是一种个人的热爱，我觉得团队里很多人也是一样。我们好几个人过去都做过类似的东西，搞过 2D、3D 工具之类的。所以对我们很多人来说，这是一份个人的热爱。对。好。好。太棒了，老兄。那接下来呢？你打算——说不定 Adobe 会想来收购你，你可得当心点。

[29:57]

[laughter]

[笑]

[29:59] Tom Krcha

Yeah. Well, Honestly, like there's so much unexplored. Now now that we have like shipped the Swarm stuff, I was like, "Wow." And now with the whole world of like ideas is slowly like opening in front of me. Like the cursors, it seems like a small touch, but it's the first time I have seen AI humanized. Yeah. And it feels like there is someone there, you know? And it's crazy. It's just a cursor, you know? But it just makes you feel like that. It shows you that actually that like craft and care still matter cuz like I I I I I I I I think I would not be as blown away if those cursors were not on the screen and there's not there wasn't like a A- chat right below. So it actually still ma- just wrote that Jason and he would have to like reopen the file. Like

对。嗯，说真的，还有太多未被探索的东西了。现在我们把 Swarm（智能体集群）这套东西做出来之后，我当时就想，哇。然后整个点子的世界正在我面前慢慢打开。那些光标看起来只是个小细节，但这是我第一次看到 AI 被「人格化」。对。它让你感觉真的有个人在那儿，太疯狂了。它就只是个光标而已，但它就是能让你产生那种感觉。它说明工艺和用心其实仍然重要，因为我——我觉得如果屏幕上没有那些光标、底下也没有一个聊天框，我是不会被震撼到这种程度的。所以这其实仍然很重要——它就是刚写了那个 JSON，否则他就得重新去打开那个文件。就像……

[30:53] Tom Krcha

Oh, that would be terrible. And [laughter] but that's essentially what happens in the background, right? Technically speaking. But like all of these little things matter so much and they make a world of difference, you know? So I just hope that like more and more people in the world are going to start thinking in a different in in this way about like LLMs that we can really give them face. Now this face is this little cursor, but it's like so much more we can do. Yeah, how do you make it transparent what they're doing and also give them some personality? Like that that makes a huge difference. Totally. Like so many people like I said like so many people ask me like, "Can I rename these agents?" Yeah, rename them, give them like little personalities like you know, have have a Peter PM agent that just ruins the design. Yeah, or [laughter] they can like fly to each other like you know, do high fives and whatever. Yeah, they can they can comment. Yeah, yeah. They can like fly from like specific place. I mean there is like so much um stuff. So yeah. All right Tom, well I'm I'm blown away. I'll try to get John to let me invest in your company or something, but yeah.

哦，那就太糟糕了。[笑] 但从技术上讲，背后实际发生的差不多就是那么回事，对吧。但所有这些小细节都太重要了，它们能带来天壤之别。所以我就希望，世界上越来越多的人能开始换一种方式去思考 LLM——我们真的可以给它们一张「脸」。现在这张脸就是这个小光标，但其实我们能做的远不止于此。对，怎么让它们在做什么变得透明，同时又赋予它们一些个性？这点能带来巨大的不同。完全同意。就像我刚说的，好多好多人问我：「我能给这些 agent 改名吗？」对啊，给它们改名，给它们一点小个性，比如搞一个「Peter PM agent」，专门把 design 搞砸。对，或者[笑]它们还能飞向彼此，互相击掌什么的。对，它们还能评论。对对。它们能从某个特定的地方飞过来。我是说，能玩的东西太多了。所以，对。好了 Tom，我是真被震撼到了。我会试着说服 John 让我投资你的公司什么的，反正。

[31:53]

[laughter]

[笑]

[31:53] Peter Yang

It's yeah, keep keep keep going man. You have something very special here. Yeah, I really appreciate it. It was it was great chatting. Thank you so much.

对，加油加油，老兄，继续干。你手里这东西非常特别。对，非常感谢。聊得太开心了，太谢谢你了。

[32:00]

[laughter]

[笑]

[32:00] Tom Krcha

Yeah, thanks so much. Yeah and and by the way like if you want to download it, go to pencil.dev. You can also join our Discord. We have a button there. Join Discord. There's tons of people discussing their creations, designs. They're sharing them with everyone asking for features and reporting bugs and all the all the great feedback is super much welcome. So yeah, let us know when you try and we're here for you and you can DM me on Discord or on X. So yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, you better get your servers ready, man cuz this is going to take off.

对，非常感谢。对了顺便说一句，你要是想下载它，去 pencil.dev。你也可以加入我们的 Discord，那儿有个按钮，点「Join Discord」。里面有一大堆人在讨论他们的作品、design，互相分享、提功能需求、报 bug，所有这些宝贵的反馈我们都非常欢迎。所以，你试用之后告诉我们一声，我们随时为你服务，你可以在 Discord 或者 X 上私信我。所以，非常感谢。对，你最好把服务器准备好，老兄，因为这东西要火了。

[32:37]

[laughter]

[笑]

[32:38] Tom Krcha

So yeah, you better get get get ready. Yeah, all right. Thanks. Cheers.

所以对，你最好做好准备。对，好的。谢谢。干杯。