Chatbots are not the final interface: OpenAI’s Head of Design on what’s next | Ian Silber

频道: Lenny's Podcast
视频: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV0hy6NET-U
原文语言: en
统计: 共 118 轮 · Lenny 51 · Ian 65

[0:00] Lenny

I've been doing this sentiment survey of the tech workforce. Surprisingly, designers are just the most unhappy on every dimension.

我一直在做一个面向科技行业从业者的心态调查。挺意外的是，设计师在每一个维度上都是最不开心的那群人。

[0:08] Ian

We're unclear right now what is expected of a designer. Someone who might be classically [music] trained in a certain way of working now feeling like, "Oh my gosh, I need to really change everything."

现在大家都搞不清楚，一个设计师到底该做什么、别人期待你做什么。那些受过科班训练、习惯了某一套工作方式的人，现在会觉得——天哪，我是不是得把一切都推翻重来。

[0:17] Lenny

You believe this the best time in history to be a designer.

你认为，现在是历史上做设计师最好的时候。

[0:20] Ian

We're all extremely early in this process. There's just a huge opportunity for designers. Nobody should feel behind right now. I think that if you literally started today, you're going to have a leg up on pretty much most people. There's just so much opportunity [music] to change the way you work to make great things.

我们所有人都还处在非常非常早期的阶段。对设计师来说，机会大得惊人。现在没有人应该觉得自己落后了。哪怕你今天才开始，你也会比绝大多数人抢先一步。想改变自己的工作方式、想做出好东西，机会实在太多了。

[0:36] Lenny

If you look at engineering, it's just a completely new job versus a few years ago. I'm curious how that translates to product design.

看看工程师这个岗位，跟几年前相比，简直已经是一份全新的工作了。我很好奇，这种变化放到产品设计上会是什么样子。

[0:43]

Engineers have 10 or sometimes like 100x their productivity, but our design team hasn't because the design process still takes time. It's still sometimes you have to try a bunch of things and throw them out. Still [music] very messy and fluid. We had a podcast with head of design cloud code Jenny when she talked about [music] there's been this traditional design process prototype mock test research iterate and now there's just no time for that.

工程师的生产力翻了 10 倍，有时候甚至 100 倍，但我们的设计团队没有——因为设计这件事本身还是要花时间。你还是常常得试一堆方案，然后全部扔掉。它依然非常混乱、非常流动。之前我们有一期播客请到了 Claude Code 的设计负责人 Jenny，她讲到，传统的设计流程是原型、视觉稿、测试、调研、迭代，而现在根本没有时间这么走了。

[1:05] Ian

There's certain features for chatbt where we really obsess and we really spend a lot of time we try 100 things we throw out 99 we finally ship one and other things we really embrace building in public we take big swings and then we learn quickly. Do

ChatGPT 里有些功能，我们会极度较真，花大量时间，试一百个方案，扔掉九十九个，最后才发出来一个；另一些东西我们则彻底拥抱「公开地做」，大胆下注，然后快速学习。

[1:19]

you think AI will ever be an extremely good product designer? I think it already is an incredible product designer.

你觉得 AI 有一天会成为极其出色的产品设计师吗？我觉得它现在就已经是个了不起的产品设计师了。

[1:26] Lenny

Today my guest is Ian Silber, head of product design at OpenAI. Ian's been in this role for three years now, which is a lifetime in AI time. Prior to OpenAI, he was at Artifact, the news app from the founders of Instagram that I absolutely loved. Before that, he spent 8 years at Instagram. The role of design is in such an interesting place right now and Ian has such a unique and insightful and fascinating take on the future of product design and what the AI tools that we use everyday will look like in the future. A huge thank you to Cleo and Joel Loenstein for suggesting topics for this conversation. Before we get into it, don't forget to check out lennisproass.com for a year free of the hottest and most beautifully crafted AI products in the world available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers. With that, I bring you Ian Silbert. Ian, thank you so much for being here.

今天的嘉宾是 Ian Silber，OpenAI 的产品设计负责人。他干这个岗位已经三年了——按 AI 的时间尺度算，这相当于一辈子。来 OpenAI 之前，他在 Artifact，就是 Instagram 两位创始人做的那款新闻 App，我当年爱得不行。再往前，他在 Instagram 待了八年。设计这个职能眼下正处在一个特别有意思的位置，而 Ian 对产品设计的未来、对我们每天在用的这些 AI 工具将来会长成什么样，有一套非常独特、非常有洞察、也非常迷人的看法。特别感谢 Cleo 和 Joel Lewenstein 为这期对话提供了话题建议。进入正题之前，别忘了去 lennysproductpass.com 看看——Lenny's Newsletter 的订阅者可以专享一年免费使用全世界最热门、做得最漂亮的一批 AI 产品。好，下面有请 Ian Silber。Ian，非常感谢你来。

[2:20] Ian

I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

我特别兴奋能来，谢谢你邀请我。

[2:22] Lenny

I'm even more excited. Something that I'm very excited to get your take on. I don't know if you've watched me doing this, but I've been doing this uh sentiment survey of the tech workforce over the past couple years. I think it's the biggest survey of its kind where we basically survey people in tech about how they're feeling about their careers, their work, their roles, especially with the rise of AI this last year. And kind of surprisingly, designers and user researchers are just the most unhappy on every dimension, like every actual dimension. They're the most overwhelmed, the most anxious, the most the least optimistic, the most worried, uh the most tired, also the least likely to recommend their role to people entering the workforce. I'm curious if you're seeing this yourself in the design community, and if you are, what do you think is going on?

我比你还兴奋。有件事我特别想听听你的看法。不知道你有没有注意到，过去这两年我一直在做一个科技行业从业者的心态调查，我觉得它应该是同类调查里规模最大的——基本上就是问科技圈的人，对自己的职业、工作和岗位现在是什么感受，尤其是在过去这一年 AI 起来之后。结果有点出人意料：设计师和用户研究员在每一个维度上都是最不开心的，真的是每一个维度。他们最不堪重负、最焦虑、最不乐观、最忧心、最疲惫，同时也最不愿意把自己的岗位推荐给刚入行的人。我很好奇，你在设计圈里有没有感受到同样的情况？如果有，你觉得这是怎么回事？

[3:18] Ian

Uh, first of all, it's an incredible survey, and it's such great, I think, information to have as an industry. Um, and I think it's something we need to unpack, you know, and I see I I see a mix uh for sure. I think like I can speak most to design. Um, and I mean I talk to a lot of designers that are very optimistic and very excited. Um, and so I see in my world I see luckily I I'm or I I I see a lot of that. But I can totally understand why people might be feeling very uncertain, right? Because there's so much discussion about, well, is the role changing? Should my expectations be different? Um, and you know, well, do I need to do I need to do X, Y, and Z? Do I need to be shipping code every day? And you know someone who might be uh sort of classically trained in a certain way of working now feeling like oh my gosh I need to like really change everything and I think it's to me right now it feels like the the uncertainty of of that I can totally understand right because as an engineer I think people have they've already sort of gone through that shift like we see that engineers are working totally different and we also you know one thing I do hear and I this came up a lot in my own team when when we did we do similar surveys internally One of the big things that came up was you know we see that uh uh you know engineers have 10 or sometimes like 100x their productivity uh but our design team hasn't right because the design process still takes time. It's still sometimes you have to try a bunch of things and throw them out right versus maybe working with a coding agent you ask it to do something it's pretty binary now at this point it usually sort of gets it pretty well. Um, and but the design process is really still very messy and fluid and you think you have a great idea and you try it and it sucks and then you try it again and it sucks and then you you give it to you know users or internal you get internal

首先，这个调查太棒了，我觉得对整个行业来说都是非常宝贵的信息。这确实是件需要好好拆解的事。我看到的情况是混杂的。设计这块我最有发言权——我接触到的很多设计师其实非常乐观、非常兴奋，所以在我这个小世界里，我算幸运，看到的多是这一面。但我完全能理解为什么有人会觉得很不确定。因为现在到处都在讨论：这个岗位是不是变了？我对自己的预期是不是也该变？我是不是必须做这个、那个？我是不是得每天都在写代码、发代码？那些受过科班训练、已经习惯了某一套工作方式的人，现在会觉得——天哪，我是不是得把一切都推翻重来。所以在我看来，现在最主要的就是这种不确定感，这我完全能理解。因为工程师那边，大家某种程度上已经走完了这一轮转变，我们都看到工程师的工作方式彻底变了。另外还有一点我经常听到，我们内部也做过类似的调查，这条在我自己团队里被提得特别多：大家会说，工程师的生产力翻了 10 倍，有时候甚至 100 倍，但我们设计团队没有。因为设计流程本身还是要花时间，你还是经常得试一堆东西然后全扔掉。相比之下，跟 coding agent 协作，你给它一个任务，现在基本上是二元的，它多半能干得挺好。可设计流程依然非常混乱、非常流动：你以为自己有个绝妙的点子，一试，很烂；再试一次，还是烂；然后你把它拿给用户，或者拿到内部去收

[5:22] Ian

feedback and it's wrong and you still have to go through that arduous and kind of messy but really fun process. Um, and that hasn't really comp that it's compressed in that you can get much more ideas out fast, but you still need that that whole sort of feedback loop. There's the alignment of getting many people uh, you know, especially in a bigger company like that still has a lot of overhead. So the point is that I think that it's we're unclear right now like what is expected of a designer and that lack of clarity I can see totally lead to you know um some some fears uh or some unease I guess. But on the other hand I've seen that I mean our designers what's been what's great I think about at OpenAI is like we're such an experimental company. We are driven by you know research and we treat our company as a research lab and we totally embrace that and that's a new thing that I really kind of learned and and have really come to love about OpenAI is that started as a research lab that DNA is like deeply embedded in everything we do and as designers I think that you know you come here we look for people that are not don't have a background in AI but are like really curious about the tools and how it can And we found that like just by sort of supporting that excitement to explore that people feel less pressure.

反馈，结果发现方向就是错的，你还是得走完那个又费劲、又乱、但其实特别好玩的过程。这个过程并没有被真正压缩——它压缩的部分在于你能更快地产出更多想法，但那一整套反馈闭环还是躲不掉。而且还有对齐的成本，尤其在大一点的公司里，要让很多人达成一致，这部分开销依然很大。所以我想说的是，我觉得眼下的症结在于：我们不清楚一个设计师到底该被期待做什么，而这种不清晰，我完全能理解会带来一些恐惧或者不安。但另一方面我也看到——我觉得 OpenAI 特别好的一点是，我们是一家非常实验性的公司。我们是被研究驱动的，我们把公司当成一个研究实验室，并且完全拥抱这一点。这也是我来了 OpenAI 之后才真正学到、而且越来越喜欢的一点：它起家就是一个研究实验室，这个 DNA 深深嵌在我们做的每一件事里。作为设计师，你来这儿，我们招人时看的不是你有没有 AI 背景，而是你对这些工具、对它能做成什么，是不是真的好奇。我们发现，只要去支持这种想探索的兴奋感，大家反而没那么大压力。

[6:49] Ian

Um it's not like you need to change the way you work but it's more about encouraging exploration. Um, and when we've done that, when I go and talk to um, both very senior designers and early career designers at our company, they're so excited because they I I literally was just asking some people before this cuz I wanted to get some different takes and they, [snorts] you know, I think the feeling is that like they have so much more ability to be creative, to express themselves, to try bad ideas and throw them out. you can just like really move through lots of different ideas and it becomes this incredible way to create and the things that I'm seeing from my team the the bar is raising um the the I think the thinking is getting stronger the more that they're using um these tools. So, I think for the people that that that are starting to embrace this, they're starting to feel really excited and realizing that they have just so much agency as as designers and like um you know, so much more ability to have like really high impact uh as as a as a designer.

不是说「你必须改变你的工作方式」，而是鼓励你去探索。我们这么做之后，我去跟公司里的设计师聊——不管是很资深的还是刚入行的——他们都特别兴奋。我今天录之前还专门问了几个人，想多收集几种说法。我感觉大家的感受是：他们比以前有大得多的空间去发挥创造力、去表达自己、去试那些烂点子然后扔掉。你可以真的快速穿过大量不同的想法，这本身就成了一种极好的创作方式。而且我从团队身上看到的是，标准在被抬高，思考也在变强——他们越用这些工具，想得越深。所以我觉得，对那些开始拥抱这件事的人来说，他们会开始感到非常兴奋，会意识到自己作为设计师拥有前所未有的主动权，能做出高得多的影响力。

[7:53] Lenny

This episode is brought to you by our season's presenting sponsor, WorkOS. What do OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor, Replet, Sierra, Clay, and hundreds of other winning companies all have in common? They are [music] all powered by work OS. If you're building a product for the enterprise, you've felt the pain of integrating single signon, skim, arback, audit logs, and other features required by large companies. Work OS turns those deal blockers into drop-in APIs with a modern developer platform built specifically for B2B SAS. Literally, every startup that I'm an investor in that starts to expand up market ends up working with Work OS. And that's because they are the best. Whether you are a seedstage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer or a unicorn expanding globally, work OS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise ready and unblocking growth. It's essentially Stripe for enterprise features. Visit workos.com to get started or just hit up their Slack where they have actual engineers waiting to answer your questions. Workos allows you to build faster with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience. Go to work os.com to make your app enterprise ready today.

本期节目由本季的呈现赞助商 WorkOS 支持。OpenAI、Anthropic、Cursor、Replit、Sierra、Clay，以及其他几百家跑出来的公司，有什么共同点？他们背后跑的都是 WorkOS。如果你在给企业客户做产品，那你一定体会过接 SSO、SCIM、RBAC、审计日志这些大公司必备功能有多痛苦。WorkOS 把这些卡单子的东西变成了可以直接接入的 API，它是专为 B2B SaaS 打造的现代开发者平台。我投的每一家开始往上打企业市场的创业公司，最后基本都用上了 WorkOS——因为他们就是最好的。不管你是刚拿种子轮、想签下第一个企业客户，还是已经在全球扩张的独角兽，WorkOS 都是让产品达到企业级要求、把增长堵点打通的最快路径。它本质上就是「企业级功能里的 Stripe」。去 workos.com 开始使用，或者直接去他们的 Slack，那儿有真正的工程师在等着回答你的问题。WorkOS 让你靠好用的 API、完整的文档和顺滑的开发体验跑得更快。今天就去 workos.com，让你的产品达到企业级。

[9:02] Lenny

What I'd love to do in this conversation is help folks that are in that bucket of well this is sucks and things aren't going well because as you said and this is exactly what we found that survey is about half of people are having the best time of their career having the most fun the most optimistic about where things are going and then the half are not having a really hard time. And exactly what you said, the people that are having a great time report like the main the most the strongest correlation is they feel amplified by AI. It's actually making them better. And that's that the way you described engineers, they're they're seeing that now. They're like, "Holy I can do so much more." And so just to kind of reinforce the point you're making, think attributes of people that are doing well um feel amplified, very curious, have time to explore, feel like they can be more creative. Is there any more thing more along those lines of just like patterns of people that are doing really well and having a great time that might be helpful for people to hear that are not having a good time?

这次对话我特别想做的一件事，是帮到那些觉得「太糟了、日子不好过」的人。因为正如你说的——这也正是我们在调查里发现的——大概一半的人正处在职业生涯里最好的状态：最开心、对前景最乐观；而另一半过得非常难。而且跟你说的完全一致：那些状态好的人，相关性最强的一条就是他们觉得自己被 AI 放大了，AI 真的让他们变强了。你刚才描述工程师的那种状态，他们现在正在经历——「天哪，我能做的事情多太多了。」所以顺着你的观点再补一句：过得好的人，共同特征是感觉自己被放大、非常好奇、有时间去探索、觉得自己能更有创造力。除了这些，那些过得特别好、玩得特别开心的人身上，还有没有别的共同模式？说出来可能对现在过得不好的人有帮助。

[9:59] Ian

What I see in in the the folks that I think are really embracing this, right, they are using it every step of the process to kind of help them, right? And it and I think it helps, you know, we have we have a community of course of designers that are all trying this together. So if there's any way to kind of uh find that and that that's something that uh we should think about more as a broader community how we kind of help each other but like I think that learning kind of different ways of working right and so it might be okay I have this idea let me just actually start by trying what if I just threw this right into codeex or cloud or whatever tool you use like throw it into uh into an agent to help you think about it to help you prototype it just try a different way of working um it doesn't necessarily mean that that has to be the exact right way. But um I don't know. I think we found that just people that are are embracing this that are adaptable. I think adaptability is like another term that I think we all hear a lot now, but it's like so true. It's like knowing that this stuff changes very quickly. What didn't work yesterday might work today. I mean literally like within you know six months this entire industry has shifted. I remember I was actually out on on paternity leave uh towards the end of last year and I was working on some side projects. I was trying some uh coding agents and it just like it worked but it just kept kind of running into these hiccups and and then like a month later like codeex drops and I try it again and it's like oh my gosh it just works. Um and that I think changes a lot of the design process because now all of a sudden if you do have an idea you can like plop it in there and just try it. Um, and so anyways, I think it's it's just really about like not being scared. I think another thing to think about is that we're so early. We're like so in early innings of this entire

我在那些真正拥抱这件事的人身上看到的是，他们在流程的每一步都在用它来帮自己。而且我觉得这也有帮助——我们当然有一个设计师社群，大家在一起试。所以如果你能找到这样的圈子……这其实是我们作为一个更大的行业共同体该多想想的事：怎么互相帮一把。但我觉得关键是去学不同的工作方式。比如：好，我有个想法，那我干脆先直接试试——如果我把它一股脑扔进 Codex 或者 Claude、或者你在用的任何工具呢？扔给一个 agent，让它帮你想、帮你做原型，就换一种方式试试看。这不一定就是唯一正确的方式。但我们确实发现，那些拥抱变化的人，都是适应力强的人。「适应力」大概是我们现在天天都能听到的一个词，但它是真的成立：你得知道这东西变得非常快，昨天不行的今天可能就行了。真的，就这半年里，整个行业已经变了一遍。我记得去年年底我在休陪产假，顺手做了几个副业项目，试了几个 coding agent——能用，但老是卡在各种小疙瘩上；结果一个月后 Codex 发布，我再试一次，那感觉就是：天哪，它就这么跑通了。我觉得这件事改变了很多设计流程，因为现在你只要有想法，就可以直接丢进去试一下。所以总之，我觉得核心就是别害怕。另一件值得想想的是：我们还非常早，整场

[11:53] Ian

um evolution, right? It feels like things have changed a lot and it feels like maybe we're pretty far into this shift. But the good news for anybody who is trying to design or get into design whether again like if you're early career or late career or you never even like actually design anything but you've been thinking about it is like we're all figuring this out as we go. Nobody has like some perfect answer um about the how the design process should work. Um and it's whatever you think is working today will probably change again. And so I think what's encouraging about this is that nobody should feel like behind right now. I think that if you literally started today, you're going to have a leg up on pretty much most people. Um and uh just really thinking about like how you can just make great stuff. Um and uh there's just so much opportunity to change the way you work work or to to just to make great things. and [snorts] what we think is like really cutting edge today will look so archaic in you know a year let alone a month right and that's something I' I've learned you know I've been at open air for three years and I think about the stuff that they you know we were working on when we when I first joined um I mean I remember getting a demo of of like our our early voice mode that we hadn't shipped or computer use that like you know barely worked worked uh and now it's like become it's it literally has become part of the process of how we design. We use both of those tools to to build software. And so anyways, the point is it's like changing very quickly. We're all extremely early in this process and nobody really has like the it figured out.

演进我们都还在特别早的局数里。感觉上好像已经变了很多，好像我们在这轮转变里已经走得挺深了。但对任何想做设计、想进设计这一行的人来说，好消息是——不管你是刚入行还是资历很深，甚至你从来没真正设计过什么、只是一直在琢磨这件事——我们所有人都是边走边摸索。没有谁手里握着一个关于「设计流程该怎么走」的完美答案。你今天觉得行得通的东西，大概率还会再变。所以我觉得这件事最让人振奋的地方在于：现在没有人应该觉得自己落后了。哪怕你今天才开始，你也会比绝大多数人抢先一步。真正该想的是，你怎么才能做出好东西。想改变工作方式、想做出好东西，机会实在太多了。而且我们今天觉得最前沿的东西，一年后回头看会显得极其古老——别说一年，一个月都够了。这是我这几年学到的：我在 OpenAI 三年了，回想我刚加入时我们在做的那些东西……我记得当时看过一个演示，是我们还没发布的早期语音模式，还有 computer use，那会儿勉强能跑。而现在，它已经变成我们设计流程本身的一部分了——这两样工具我们现在都在用来做软件。所以总之，重点是：一切都在飞快地变，我们都处在极早期，没有谁真的把它想明白了。

[13:41] Lenny

I love that you've also when we were chatting ahead of this year, you you actually told me you believe this is the best time in history to be a designer.

我特别喜欢你在我们开录前聊天时说的一句话——你说你相信，现在是历史上做设计师最好的时候。

[13:48] Ian

Yeah, I mean I I truly believe this. Um I can't even imagine you know I so when I uh okay history lesson when I was getting into design I mean I was like uh in my teenage years right and I was like uh you know to learn things it was like you know I uh I was kind of like learning design and code and you could like view source on a HTML web page and kind of see how things were built and that was like kind of how you had to learn and you know um you could I don't know it's like Dreamweaver and you know like there were these really to tools that actually were really cool. Um but to compare those to today if I were just getting into design the fact that you can like learn so quickly you can kind of like have an idea to working version of it in like like a matter of minutes. Um it's just you can be so expressive and and you can um I think anybody can be a designer right um and I think that as more and more software is made more and more products are made I think that the I do think that the human element of design is going to really be start to become more and more important. It's that's always been the case that I think that, you know, companies with great design, you know, can uh of course stand out. I think it's going to be more and more important, right? I think that products that um fully understand their users and that make something delightful when anybody can make anything, you know, that's going to become one of the most important kind of uh like sort of dimensions of a product and that's how people are going to evaluate it. And so I think designers uh stand like that is that is our core job, right? Um you know and and then on top of that I think that designers are just much more empowered. Uh so you know at a um you know I was talking to some friends that are thinking about starting a company and talking about the uh sort of ratio of design to engineer and how like at a startup maybe that's totally

是的，我是真心这么认为。我甚至无法想象……好，讲一段历史课：我开始接触设计的时候还是十几岁的少年，那时候学东西是这样的——我算是同时在学设计和代码，你可以在一个 HTML 网页上「查看源代码」，从里面看出这东西是怎么搭出来的，当时基本上就得这么学。还有 Dreamweaver 之类的，那些工具在当时其实挺酷的。但拿它们跟今天比——如果我现在才刚入行做设计，你能学得那么快，从一个想法到一个能跑起来的版本，可能只要几分钟。你可以极其充分地表达自己。而且我觉得，任何人都可以是设计师。我还认为，随着越来越多的软件被做出来、越来越多的产品被做出来，设计里「人的那一面」会变得越来越重要。一直以来都是这样：设计做得好的公司当然能脱颖而出。而我觉得这件事会越来越重要——当任何人都能做出任何东西的时候，那些真正理解自己用户、能做出让人愉悦的东西的产品，会成为一个产品最重要的维度之一，人们就是靠这个来评判它。所以我觉得设计师……这本来就是我们的核心工作。除此之外，我还觉得设计师被赋予的权力也大得多。比如我前阵子跟几个在考虑创业的朋友聊，聊到设计师和工程师的配比，在创业公司里这个比例可能完全

[16:05] Ian

different. It might it may have been like you're going to have one designer and uh I don't know 15 engineers or something like that. You know that maybe a startup I've seen that sort of ratio. Uh but they were they were talking about well maybe we'll have like two designers and one engineer. One really good engineer who can make sure that like we're really building something that's rock solid like from from an engineering standpoint. But then we want two really creative people that are going to be thinking about how we kind of build this product. And so thinking about that, I think that there's just like a huge opportunity for designers. I think that internally we see that more and more we're we like designers we are are totally completely empowered to to take an idea to take a early research concept and try to figure out how we can actually like package that up into something that people want to use or that um that solves some sort of uh unmet need for our customers. and um that is a designer's job. And so I think that maybe more and more people start to think of themselves as designers. Um but either way, I think it's like the best I I really do think it's the best time to be a designer.

不一样了。以前可能是一个设计师配十五个工程师之类的，创业公司里我见过这种比例。但他们讨论的是：也许我们会配两个设计师、一个工程师——一个非常强的工程师，确保我们从工程角度做出来的东西足够扎实；然后我们要两个真正有创造力的人，去想这个产品该怎么搭。这么一想，我觉得设计师面前的机会实在太大了。我们内部也越来越明显地看到，设计师完全有权把一个想法、一个早期的研究概念拿过来，去想办法把它包装成一个人们真正愿意用的东西，或者能解决用户某种未被满足的需求的东西。而这就是设计师的工作。所以我觉得，可能会有越来越多的人开始把自己看作设计师。但不管怎样，我真的认为，现在就是做设计师最好的时候。

[17:13] Lenny

So along those lines, when Mark Andre was on the podcast, he had this hilarious way of describing the state of the of the product or right now. Uh he's like basically there's this three-way standoff. PMs, engineers, designers, they're all they all think the other roles are going to go away and they're the ones that are going to win in the end. And so there's less like Spider-Man meme where they're all pointing at each other. And I'm curious because I I can see a case for each role becoming the dominant role. And I completely agree with you that with all of the tools being shipped, like there's like a thousandx explosion and products being shipped, there's just like endless streams of things to pay attention to. You think design would be such an opportunity to differentiate and stand out. I haven't seen that yet in just like an acceleration of design hires and explosion as you said like two designers to one engineer. Do you think do you think that's coming? Why do you think that hasn't happened yet? Do you think it's as you said just early and people will realize oh wow we need a lot more designers. What do you think is going on?

说到这个，之前 Mark Andre 上我们播客的时候，用了一个特别逗的说法来形容现在产品圈的状态。他说本质上这是个三方对峙：PM、工程师、设计师，每一方都觉得另外两个角色早晚会消失，最后赢家是自己。就像那个蜘蛛侠互相指着对方的表情包。我挺好奇的，因为我确实能为每个角色都找出成为主导者的理由。而且我完全同意你说的，现在各种工具疯狂往外发，产品发布量像涨了一千倍，需要关注的东西源源不断。照理说设计应该是个特别好的差异化机会，能让你脱颖而出。但到现在我还没看到设计师招聘明显加速，也没看到你说的那种「两个设计师配一个工程师」的爆发。你觉得这波会来吗？为什么现在还没发生？是像你说的还太早，大家迟早会反应过来「哇，我们需要多得多的设计师」？你觉得到底是怎么回事？

[18:12] Ian

We might start to see that happen more. Um or if anything we might start to see engineers wanting to become a little bit more design focused. I also think that designers are getting more productive. Um it's not necessarily the same direct output of like engineers 10xing. Um but we are seeing that that designers um are are able to do a lot more. But no, I mean I think that that that is something we're sort of always thinking about and and evolving. Um the other thing I wanted to talk about too is like the difference between PM and engine and design and are they all blurring together? And my point of view is that they they definitely are and they there's always been overlap as far as I've seen it, right? I've seen designers that are like kind of really good product, you know, manager type archetype, but can design and I've seen designers that are like really good sort of polish engineer type, you know, like so that I think I've always found that these like single siloed um role definitions don't really make sense. It's just that at big companies you have to have like a ladder to put people on so you can generally kind of like organize. But in reality, you know, when you look at a team, you see that there are people that are have various strengths and people that play different roles. And so I've I've always kind of seen that. Um I think there's those lines have always been blurry, but they're becoming blurriier for sure. Um, but the other thing is I do still think that and and maybe this is thinking about it from like a slightly larger company perspective, but I think you do still need people that have certain responsibilities, right? Because if you have one person that's expected to design, to rally a team around something, you know, to align a whole company, uh to do all the work that like a PM does, for example, and also be designing it and also be engineering it, it's just maybe not you you might it

我们可能会开始更多地看到这种情况。或者反过来，可能会看到工程师开始更关注设计。我还觉得设计师本身也在变得更高产——这未必等同于工程师那种直接的「效率十倍」，但我们确实看到设计师能做的事多了很多。不过这确实是我们一直在思考、也在不断调整的事。另外我还想聊的是 PM、工程和设计之间的界限——它们是不是正在互相融合？我的看法是，肯定在融合，而且据我观察，重叠一直都存在。我见过那种特别像产品经理原型、但同时会做设计的设计师；也见过那种更偏打磨型工程师的设计师。所以我一直觉得，把角色定义切成一个个孤岛其实说不通。只不过在大公司里你得有个职级阶梯，好让大家大致能被组织起来。但现实中你看一个团队，会发现每个人强项不同、扮演的角色也不同。这点我一直都能感觉到。这些界线本来就模糊，现在肯定更模糊了。但另一方面，我还是觉得——也许这更多是从稍大一点的公司视角看——你依然需要有人承担某些明确的职责。因为如果你指望一个人既做设计，又要把团队凝聚到一件事上、拉通全公司的共识，把 PM 该干的活全干了，同时还要做设计、还要写代码，那可能

[20:13] Ian

might be hard to find one person that's good at all of those different skills. And so I still find a lot of value, for example, in having like an excellent PM that can help rally multiple teams together that can help um sharpen kind of the perspective or the problem space that a team is focused on um that can help with like resourcing, all of those things, right? And so I do think there will still be value in these um and people focused on different parts of building a project or a product. Um that doesn't mean that um maybe there's more fluidity that people can move between them but having somebody who is sort of generally responsible for these different things or an engineer who's like really making sure that the output is totally sound and you know is actually like um lading up to something that is going to work for the broader system.

很难找到一个在所有这些技能上都很强的人。所以我依然觉得，比如有一个优秀的 PM 是很有价值的——他能把多个团队凝聚起来，能帮团队把视角、把问题空间打磨得更锋利，还能协调资源，诸如此类。所以我确实认为，这些角色、这些专注在造项目或造产品不同环节上的人，依然有价值。这不意味着不能有更多流动性，人是可以在不同角色之间切换的，但你还是需要有人整体上对这些不同的事负责；或者有一个工程师，专门确保产出足够扎实、真正能往上接进整个系统里、跑得通。

[21:03] Lenny

I completely agree. So just to make sure I understand what you're saying is just there's talk about all the roles blurring. is like maybe we'll all just be builders and we do everything and you're saying is like no that's not going to happen the like the ven di I'm picturing ven diagrams of product design engineering like converging but you're saying they're going to continue to stay their own roles there's going to be a PM design engineer but each can do more of the other roles

我完全同意。我确认一下有没有理解对：现在大家都在说角色边界正在模糊，好像以后我们都是「builder」，什么都干。而你的意思是，不会这样。我脑子里在想产品、设计、工程三个圈的韦恩图不断靠拢——但你说的是，它们仍然会各自保持独立角色，还是会有 PM、设计师、工程师，只不过每个人都能多干一些别人的活儿。

[21:26] Ian

I think that's right I I do think that like for and again this is not a blanket statement right because I think if you're at a startup that's like very different I would I would if I were starting a company right now I [snorts] would hire like the best generalist people I could possibly think of, someone who I think could kind of fluidly move between that. But maybe again that's maybe that's always kind of been true. Um, but at at a bigger company, I do think that I've seen like designers um that are, you know, maybe incredible at designing, but could really use a product manager who can help them kind of with with like hone um both their thinking and how and and then how they work and the operations of it all. So the point is I do just think that there are there are different it's it's almost like in t taking the people out of it I think that there are different sort of hats that you need to wear to build great software and I think that um those are continue to be important functions I think

我觉得是这样。不过这不是一句放之四海的结论——如果你在创业公司，情况完全不同。要是我现在自己开公司，我会去招我能想到的最厉害的通才，那种能在几个角色之间自由切换的人。但话说回来，这可能一直都是成立的。而在大一点的公司，我确实见过一些设计师，设计能力可能极强，但真的很需要一个产品经理帮他打磨——既打磨他的思考，也打磨他的工作方式和整个执行节奏。所以我想说的是，如果把「人」这个因素抽掉来看，做出好软件需要戴上好几顶不同的帽子，而我认为这些依然是重要的职能。

[22:24] Lenny

so this begs the question do you think AI will ever be an extremely good product designer and just to like it's interesting to ask you this question because on the one hand you're like oh yeah open like ChachiP is going to become incredible at everything. On the other hand, it's hard for a head of design to say, "Oh, no, design's going to be done by AI." I'm curious to get your your take and you know, it like sounds crazy, but like engineers never thought it would be able to write code the way it is now. Um, so just yeah, thoughts on just how good AI will get.

那这就引出一个问题：你觉得 AI 有一天会成为一个极其优秀的产品设计师吗？问你这个问题挺有意思的，因为一方面你会说「当然，ChatGPT 什么都会变得超厉害」；另一方面，作为设计负责人，你又很难说「哦，设计以后交给 AI 就行了」。我想听听你的看法。这听起来是挺疯狂的，但当年工程师也从没想过 AI 能写出今天这样的代码。所以，就是想听听你觉得 AI 能好到什么程度。

[22:53] Ian

Maybe one way to put it is I think it already is an incredible um product designer. [laughter] Um, it it really is actually already great. The cool thing about it though is it's accessible to every single person. Um, and it's a tool that anybody can use. I do think it's really good. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's like the best visual designer or best at, you know, uh, information hierarchy or or typography or even, you know, user experience and interaction design. It's not necessarily like the best at any of those. It's impossible to predict where things are going. And like I said earlier, like you know, how much has changed in three years? Of course, they're going to continue to get better. Um, but the way we think about it and and I and I really do believe this is like we're building tools to enable people to be more creative, to be um to to do more, to build more. And so it's it is already a great designer, but you it's at your fingertips to kind of figure out how to use it and how to get the best out of it. Where do you think human brains will continue to be most valuable as AI gets better at product design specifically? What are kind of like the remaining areas for us to be useful?

换个说法吧：我觉得它现在已经是个非常出色的产品设计师了。[笑] 它真的已经很厉害了。但最酷的地方在于，每个人都能用得上它，它是一个人人可及的工具。我确实觉得它很强。当然，这不等于说它是最好的视觉设计师，或者在信息层级、字体排印、甚至用户体验和交互设计上最强——这些它未必是最好的。未来会怎样根本没法预测。就像我前面说的，三年时间已经变了多少？它们当然会继续变强。但我们的思路是——我也真心这么认为——我们是在做工具，让人能更有创造力、能做更多事、造更多东西。所以它已经是个很好的设计师了，但怎么用好它、怎么把它的最大价值榨出来，掌握在你自己手里。（Lenny）那随着 AI 在产品设计上越来越强，你觉得人的大脑在哪些地方还会最有价值？我们还剩下哪些能派上用场的地方？

[24:05] Ian

Truly understanding [snorts] what people need. um you know I mean the human uh feedback loop of watching people use something and and understanding that um the you know inventing something new um I think uh and then of course there's just the pure like human kind of take right like oh somebody made this somebody had a point of view about this um I just think that I do think that will stand out more and more and I think that that's like an important thing for a designer to like really hone is like what is my point of view? What who am I building this for and why? Um and I don't know I think like as as as AI becomes more and more like better and better for sure there will be an opportunity to always kind of stand out and push how can you push that even further.

真正理解人们需要什么。我是说那种人和人之间的反馈闭环——看着别人用你的东西，然后真正搞懂它。还有发明出全新的东西。当然还有一种纯粹的「人味儿」——就是「这是某个人做的，某个人对这件事有自己的观点」。我觉得这一点会越来越突出，而且对设计师来说，这是必须打磨的关键：我的观点是什么？我在为谁做这个东西，为什么做？我也说不准，但我觉得随着 AI 越来越强，永远会有让你脱颖而出的机会，去问「怎么把它再往前推一步」。

[25:01] Lenny

Yeah, that touches on uh a conversation I had with um the PM of codeex. I asked him just why is AI not good at design? It's actually gotten better since that conversation, which was just like a month or two ago. And and he had a number of reasons for it. One is just like like part of great product design is doing something new. And so if it's trained on all the most interesting websites today, it's just like okay, but that's not what that's not interesting anymore. And the other point he made is like AI researchers aren't innately great at design and so they may not understand exactly what it takes to train a model to be really good at this. Uh thoughts? What do you think? What do you think it'll take to get AI to be much much better at product design?

是，这让我想起我和 Codex 的 PM 那次聊天。我当时问他，为什么 AI 不擅长设计？其实那之后 AI 已经进步了不少，而那只是一两个月前的事。他给了几个原因：一是，优秀的产品设计有一部分就在于做出新东西。如果模型是在今天所有最有意思的网站上训练出来的，那结果顶多是「还行」，但已经不新鲜了。他的另一个观点是，AI 研究员本身天生并不擅长设计，所以他们可能并不清楚，要把模型训练到真正擅长这件事需要什么。你怎么看？你觉得要让 AI 在产品设计上变得强得多，需要什么？

[25:40] Ian

I mean, the new thing is interesting, right? Because I think that everything we're doing is trying to design something that hasn't existed before, right? Um, you know, if you look at if you look at great great products that have come out in the last, you know, 10 20 years or whatever, right? It's like all of a sudden, you know, take the iPhone, we're designing for multi-touch. And that opened up like this whole new interaction paradigm. And there's no training data for that, right? You have to you're kind of really trying to understand this new thing, right? And then you had something like Instagram that was like really embracing um the sort of like the fact that everybody had mobile phones. And then Snapchat, I think, is another good example of great design and that it was kind of a maybe people thought strange sort of like interaction design, but it completely thought like flipped on its head the way people might want to communicate with each other. And to me that that is like great design. It's like truly understanding like I you know the people that like people have this problem or there's this unmet need and and I'm going to build it with this in this unique way. So yeah, I do think that there's that sort of like fresh new kind of way. And then now with AI, it's like we're designing like how do you talk to something that uh is how do you talk to AI with your voice, you know, or how do you use an agent to like carry out tasks for you? It's like yeah, there isn't a lot of precedent for this. And so I think that, you know, humans are able to kind of do a really good job kind of evaluating, you know, what good is and um, you know, or at least kind of like trying a bunch of things and and learning along the way with people. And so um I don't know, but again, like all this stuff changes really quickly. It's hard to say, but uh I think um I think there's a lot of reasons why uh having that human in the loop is going to be so

「新」这件事确实很有意思。因为我们做的每件事，本质上都是在设计一个此前不存在的东西。你看过去一二十年出来的那些伟大产品——比如 iPhone，突然之间我们要为多点触控做设计，这一下打开了一整套全新的交互范式，而这件事是没有训练数据的，你只能真正去理解这个新东西。再比如 Instagram，它真正吃透了「人人都有手机」这件事。Snapchat 我觉得是另一个好设计的例子，它那套交互设计在当时可能被很多人觉得奇怪，但它彻底颠覆了人们互相沟通的方式。对我来说这就是伟大的设计：你真正理解了「人们有这个问题」或者「这里有个未被满足的需求」，然后用一种独特的方式把它做出来。所以我确实认为存在那种全新的、从零长出来的做法。而现在到了 AI 时代，我们要设计的是——你怎么用语音跟 AI 对话？你怎么用一个 agent 帮你把任务执行完？这些几乎没有先例可循。所以我觉得人类在评估「什么算好」这件事上还是能做得很好，或者至少能做到「先试一堆东西，然后跟用户一起边做边学」。所以我也不知道，反正这些东西变化太快，很难下定论，但我觉得有很多理由说明，让人留在闭环里会非常

[27:33] Lenny

important. And kind of following that thread of the human in the loop when you're hiring designers these days, what's kind of trending up in what you look for, what you think is more and more important in the designers that will be successful today, especially at OpenAI, what's trending down with anything?

（Ian）……重要。（Lenny）顺着「human in the loop」这条线问，你现在招设计师，哪些特质是越来越看重的？在今天、尤其是在 OpenAI，你觉得什么样的设计师会成功？又有什么在降权？

[27:50] Ian

This might be a luxury of having a slightly larger team, but if you're, you know, at our scale, um, you know, but even at at a startup or a smaller company, I think this still be true. I really believe in hiring a well-rounded team that has many different strengths. So, I think it's important to have kind of like your handful of or or the right ratio of sort of generalists that can kind of do everything, but uh you know, we also hire like incredible visual designers or we have like like a really amazing sort of brand team that helps us with kind of like the sort of maybe Yeah. expression of our brand both out and in a in the product um or great prototypers or um you know um and so I think that rounding that out or or great sort of product thinkers that are a little bit more strategic or people that are like really obsess over like the very cutting edge of where these things are going and I haven't found that one designer necessarily checks every single one of those boxes. I think people just naturally are, you know, drawn to certain things and I think embracing that when you build a team is actually like um if you if you have the luxury of doing that is like really valuable. Okay. So that's like my a broad statement. But then as far as what we look for, we do definitely, you know, I always tell candidates, we do not expect you to have a background in AI because again, this is evolving so quickly, but we definitely expect high curiosity about it and and and a high aptitude to jumping in and learning how how you know how you're going to use this in your process, how it works. and not just how you use it in your process, but how especially for us like how you're going to create tools to enable more people to use it. Um, and so it's more about the curiosity I think um is something that like we really push on uh or look for.

这可能是团队规模稍大才有的奢侈，但即便在创业公司或小团队里，我觉得也成立：我非常相信要组一个能力互补、强项各异的团队。所以我觉得手上要有一小撮通才、或者说保持一个合适的通才比例，他们什么都能干；但我们同时也会招极其出色的视觉设计师，我们还有一个特别厉害的品牌团队，帮我们表达品牌——既对外，也在产品里面。还有很棒的原型高手，还有那种产品思考更偏战略的人，或者那种对最前沿走向近乎痴迷的人。我没见过哪一个设计师能把这些框全打满。人天然就会被某些事情吸引，所以组建团队时接受并顺着这一点来——如果你有这个条件的话——其实非常有价值。好，这是我一个笼统的说法。那具体到我们看重什么：我总是告诉候选人，我们不要求你有 AI 背景，因为这东西变化太快了；但我们绝对要求你对它有极高的好奇心，以及很强的上手能力——愿意跳进去搞明白它怎么工作、你会怎么把它用进自己的流程里。而且不只是你自己怎么用，尤其对我们来说，是你要怎么去造工具、让更多人能用上它。所以更多还是好奇心，这是我们特别较真、也特别会去找的东西。

[29:50] Ian

And then um definitely prototyping um prototyping is something I've always valued in my career. Um, but I just think that, you know, it's become more and more accessible and so that's something that, uh, I think really does stand out usually when we talk to to candidates. And then I do think that, yeah, just like having some having a point of view on on where where these things are going or or just like any of the tools that people have worked on and really thinking that strategic thinking. I guess last last one on this is like systems thinking um is becoming more and more important and um you know especially as you're I like in our world we're it's interesting because we're trying to build you know we're building the super intelligence that has uh that has all these different capabilities and we need to think more about the underlying primitives that we can build that can kind of build on top of each other, right? Um, you know, this is something that I think like notion did really well early on was like we're going to build these building blocks, right? And then like everything kind of is composable. I think that's becoming really important too as you think about like well we don't want to build all these sort of one-off siloed experiences. We want to be able to build and ship systems that can build on top of each other so that you know when someone goes and uses our product it feels like one cohesive simple thing and the model can reason about how it can pull all these things together. So that like idea of like really understanding the system and thinking about that is becoming even more important especially because it's kind of complex of all the things that it could possibly do. This is the fifth podcast in a row I've done where systems thinking has come up as a skill that people are more and more looking for and it's it's like so funny. I need a bingo card for systems thinking but it makes

然后就是原型能力。原型这件事我整个职业生涯都很看重，只是它现在变得越来越容易上手了，所以跟候选人聊的时候，这一点通常真的很扎眼。再有就是，对这些东西的走向有自己的判断，或者对自己做过的工具有真正的战略性思考。这方面最后一点是系统思维（systems thinking），它变得越来越重要。尤其在我们这个语境下——我们在造的是一个具备各种能力的超级智能，所以必须更多地去想底层的原语（primitives）：我们能造出哪些可以互相叠加的基础件？我觉得 Notion 早期就把这件事做得特别好——先造一套积木，然后所有东西都是可组合的。我觉得这一点现在也变得非常重要，因为我们不想造一堆一次性的、彼此割裂的体验，我们希望造出并交付一套能互相叠加的系统，这样用户来用我们产品的时候，感觉是一个统一而简洁的整体，模型也能推理出怎么把这些东西串起来。所以「真正理解系统并据此思考」这件事变得更重要了，尤其因为它能做的事情太多、本身就很复杂。（Lenny）这已经是我连着第五期播客里，嘉宾提到系统思维是越来越被看重的能力了，太好笑了，我得做张系统思维的 bingo 卡。不过这确实

[31:44] Lenny

so much sense and I think it especially makes sense from the designer perspective. If we come back to just why my take on why designers are kind of frustrated and and stressed right now is just there's less time to do design the traditional design process. things are just moving like engineers are shipping 5,000 PRs a day and so to your point this idea of building blocks and design system langu and and just a platform for people to build on feels incredibly important.

非常说得通，而且我觉得从设计师的视角看尤其说得通。回到我为什么觉得设计师现在有点挫败、有点焦虑——就是留给传统设计流程的时间变少了。整个节奏就是，工程师一天能提 5000 个 PR。所以照你说的，积木化的构件、设计系统的语言、一个让别人在上面继续搭的平台，感觉都极其重要。

[32:08] Ian

Totally. It's very hard but I um I I yeah it's like it's funny we've had these conversations where I'm like just do less [laughter] like my encouragement has been do less there like don't design it if you don't have to. Maybe there's already an existing system or component or something that we can build on top of or maybe we don't even need this feature. We actually just need to kind of uh uh like you know extend an an existing feature. Um I think that's an important thing and and part of that is like thinking outside of the bounds of what you're working on, right? and thinking across everything I think is becoming much more important and the speed for sure I think is is a reason why that's so important right now

完全同意。这很难。但挺好笑的，我们内部有过好几次这种对话，我会说「少做点」[笑]。我一直鼓励大家少做：能不设计就别设计。也许已经有现成的系统、组件或者别的什么，我们可以在它上面搭；也许我们根本不需要这个功能，真正需要的只是把一个已有功能扩展一下。我觉得这很重要，而这背后是要跳出你手头这一块去思考，横着看全局——我觉得这变得重要多了，而当下节奏这么快，正是它现在如此重要的原因。

[32:54] Lenny

just to follow that thread because that feels like a pretty big change in the design world there used to be this we had a podcast with u she was head of design club code Jenny Wen and she talked about this and I think it blew a lot of people's minds just there's been this traditional design process prototype mock test research iterate okay cool ready for engineering build it iterate ship it and now there's just no time for that. And so the role in her eyes has just moved to big picture planning and just like steering people in a good direction. Does that resonate? How much is that has changed in in the world of a designer?

顺着这条线再问一下，因为这在设计圈里是个挺大的变化。我们之前有一期播客请了 Jenny Wen，她是 Claude Code 的设计负责人，她聊过这个，我觉得当时让很多人挺震撼的：传统设计流程是原型、做稿、测试、调研、迭代，好，可以交给工程了，做出来，再迭代，然后上线。而现在根本没时间这么干了。所以在她看来，这个角色已经转向了大方向的规划，以及把大家往一个正确的方向上引导。这个说法你有共鸣吗？在设计师的世界里，这件事变化有多大？

[33:28] Ian

I think that 100% we we do work that way. It it's it depends. I think for us it depends on like what sort of what stage you're at in the in the uh sort of process or um you know uh how uh maybe how far along the product is. There are certain features for chatbt where we really obsess and we really spend a lot of time. We try a million things and we throw out you know uh we try 100 things we throw out 99. We finally ship one. um you know uh the like uh the or like the composer is like changing every single day and we try many things we throw them out but or like and you could take that for many different things within chbt um and then there are other things like codecs where um you know I don't know I mean the super app is a good example where we definitely are just like trying stuff really quick I think that we really embrace building in public [laughter] which is a different way of working. But I think that like when you get comfortable with it is actually really gratifying or satisfying because you can try stuff and get instant feedback both internally and externally. Um but yeah, I mean it is uh moving really fast and I think it just depends right like some like like I said certain things we really sweat the details and we try um you know and and we do test we AB test we'll do user research um and we kind of iterate and evolve a lot and then other things we uh we take big swings and then we learn quickly um but yeah I don't know I think you have to like I think the biggest thing is like embracing that the technology might change in like a a month or you know and maybe a certain interaction or or setting or or whatever that you needed doesn't need to exist or now a new one does need to exist or a new capability is there or the latency profile has changed such that you can like rethink this or whatever all these capabilities are changing or the the intelligence has changed or and so you have to be just

百分之百，我们就是这么工作的。不过也看情况。对我们来说，取决于你处在流程的哪个阶段，或者说这个产品走到多远了。ChatGPT 里有些功能我们是真的会死磕，会花大量时间，试上一百万种方案然后扔掉——试一百个，扔掉九十九个，最后上线一个。比如那个输入框（composer）几乎每天都在变，我们试很多东西又扔掉；ChatGPT 里很多东西都可以这么说。然后还有另一类，比如 Codex，或者 Sora app 就是个很好的例子——我们就是快速试各种东西。我觉得我们非常拥抱「公开地做产品」（building in public）[笑]，这是一种完全不同的工作方式。但我觉得你一旦适应了，其实会觉得挺过瘾、挺满足的，因为你可以试，然后立刻拿到内部和外部的反馈。不过是的，节奏确实非常快。所以还是那句话，看情况：像我说的，有些东西我们会抠到每个细节，会做测试、做 A/B、做用户调研，反复迭代演进；另一些东西我们就挥大棒试，然后快速学。但我觉得最关键的是，你得接受一件事：技术可能一个月就变了，某个交互、某个设置、某个你原本需要的东西可能就不需要存在了；或者反过来，出现了一个新的必须存在的东西，或者多了一项新能力，或者延迟表现变了、让你可以重新想这件事——所有这些能力都在变，模型的智能水平也在变。所以你必须

[35:38] Ian

really quick on your feet and and maybe not be so precious about it until it's at the point where okay this is kind of hardened like we don't think that this is necessarily going to change tomorrow because of the technology so let's make this the best it can possibly be you know like we're we're thinking a lot about how we should evolve sort of really think about chatbt becoming like deeply embedded in a per like your personal life and how how should the how should the app feel that's something that we're not going necessarily design and ship overnight and just like put it out there. We're spending we're really thinking about that and we're trying a bunch of different ideas and we're putting it up on you know uh you know a whiteboard or you know we're doing some design in Figma. We're prototyping it. We're probably going to dog food a bunch of different ideas long before we ever ship something. Um that but that's a bigger project, right? And then there's other things where we're like idea to ship in like, you know, 4 hours.

脚下反应特别快，而且在它还没定型之前别太把它当宝贝。等到某个点，你觉得「好，这块已经硬化了，我们不认为它明天会因为技术变化而改变」，那就把它做到极致。比如我们现在花了很多心思在想，ChatGPT 该怎么演进成一个深度嵌入你个人生活的东西，这个 app 的感觉该是什么样。这种事我们不会一夜之间设计完就直接扔出去。我们在花时间认真想，在试各种不同的想法，把它们贴到白板上，在 Figma 里画一些设计，做原型；很可能会先内部试用（dog food）好多套想法，很久之后才真的发出去。但那是个更大的项目。而另一些东西，我们是从想法到上线只要四个小时。

[36:38] Lenny

This all makes sense. Essentially, what I'm hearing is you pick your battles and you focus the design effort on the things that will be durable and not change.

这些都说得通。我听下来核心就是：你要挑仗打，把设计的力气花在那些足够耐久、不会变的东西上。

[36:47] Ian

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard to know what that is. [laughter]

没错，是的。而且难就难在，你很难知道哪些是不会变的。[笑]

[36:51] Lenny

Yeah.

是啊。

[36:52] Lenny

Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Mercury. Radically different banking loved by over 300,000 entrepreneurs. And now with command. I've been a customer of Mercury's for over six years. I have never once thought about leaving. Mercury is basically what happens when banking is built by product people, not by bankers. They make it so easy, dare I say fun, to send invoices, move money around, set up virtual cards for folks on my team. Does your bank have an API, [music] a terminal native CLI, or an AI ready MCP server? I don't think so. And just recently, they launched Command, a conversational interface built directly into Mercury, [music] which acts as your financial operator. I've been using Command to transfer money around, to figure out what categories I've been spending the most money in, analyze my cash flows, [music] and just today, I used it to find out how much I've made from a specific sponsor over the past year. I just [music] asked, "How much have I made from X over the past year?" 10 seconds later, I have an answer. It is so freaking cool. Visit mercury.com to learn more and apply online in minutes. Mercury is a fintech company, not an FDIC insured bank. Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group and column NA members FDIC. So, I asked uh a bunch of people that know you well what to talk to you about. And uh Joel uh Loenstein, who happens to be the head of design at Anthropic, is a good friend of yours, which I love. and he said what he imagines the hardest part of your job is is balancing the needs of the existing billion monthly active users of chat GPT with the need to innovate and push and iterate and invent. And so I'm just curious how you just think about that, how you find that balance knowing you have to cater to both sides.

对。本期节目由 Mercury 赞助——一家彻底不一样的银行服务，超过 30 万创业者都爱用，现在还多了 Command。我做 Mercury 的用户已经六年多了，一次都没动过换家的念头。Mercury 基本上就是「银行由产品人来做、而不是由银行家来做」会长成什么样。开发票、转账、给团队成员开虚拟卡，他们把这些事做得特别顺手，我甚至敢说，做得挺好玩的。你现在用的银行有 API 吗？有原生的终端 CLI 吗？有一个能直接接 AI 的 MCP server 吗？我猜没有。最近他们还上线了 Command，一个直接内置在 Mercury 里的对话式界面，相当于你的财务操盘手。我一直在用 Command 转账、看自己的钱都花在哪些类别上、分析现金流。就在今天，我还用它查了过去一年某个赞助商总共给我付了多少钱。我就直接问：过去一年我从 X 那儿赚了多少？10 秒之后答案就出来了。真的酷得不行。去 mercury.com 了解更多，几分钟就能在线申请。Mercury 是一家金融科技公司，不是 FDIC 承保的银行；银行服务由 Choice Financial Group 和 Column N.A. 提供，两者均为 FDIC 成员。 那我们开始。我问了一圈很了解你的人，该跟你聊点什么。Joel Lewenstein——他正好是 Anthropic 的设计负责人，也是你的好朋友，这点我特别喜欢——他说，他想象中你这份工作最难的地方，是在「照顾好 ChatGPT 现有的十亿月活用户」和「必须持续创新、往前推、快速迭代、发明新东西」之间找平衡。所以我挺好奇，你自己是怎么看这件事的？明知道两头都得顾，你怎么找到那个平衡点？

[38:37] Ian

That's a great question and it's a really fun part of the way we work. Um, I think that we have we have vastly different audiences, like really really different. I've never worked in this kind of quite quite a spread. Um, you know, like at Instagram, uh, I I I spent eight years working at Instagram, we had a billion user or billions of users, maybe. I don't actually know what they're at now, but it was a lot of people. Um, but the product was pretty simple and it was sort of, you know, a couple ways you could use it. We did think about like creators and, you know, larger accounts that had special needs, but this is like vastly different where you have someone who's, you know, using this to help them come up with the recipe to eat tonight. Um, or, you know, brainstorm their next haircut or something like that. And then there's uh somebody who's like transforming the way they're doing farming for their you know um their like you know helping to automate their farm in Japan or something right and uh it's just like the broadest spectrum ever. Um generally what we've seen is that um we we believe in this idea of this sort of capability overhang where the the product um you know like vast majority of the people are getting a sliver of the the true value that they could out of the bottle. Um that's not necessarily a bad thing. Many you know they're still getting tons of value. Um but we found that like we you know make sure to focus on creating a extremely simple, streamlined experience for for many many people. Um, and then we put like uh all of the, you know, cutting edge stuff. We also make make sure to give that and and make sure that's like really accessible for the people that care. The challenge of course is like not necessarily overindexing and and sort of like putting that putting uh something that um people might not understand in front of a billion users. So, but generally what we've seen is we can experiment

这问题特别好，而且这确实是我们工作里很有意思的一块。我觉得我们面对的用户群差异非常非常大，我以前从没在这么大的跨度里工作过。比如在 Instagram，我在那儿待了八年，也有十亿用户，可能是好几十亿吧，我不清楚现在到什么量级了，反正人非常多。但那个产品本身挺简单的，用法就那么几种。我们当然也会考虑创作者、大号这些有特殊需求的人群，但跟现在完全不是一回事——现在这边，有人是拿它来想今晚做什么菜、或者头脑风暴下次换什么发型；另一边有人是在彻底改造自己的农业方式，比如把日本的农场自动化掉，对吧。这跨度大得没边了。 我们大体上观察到的是，我们相信存在一种「能力过剩」（capability overhang）：绝大多数人从模型身上真正拿到的，只是它能给的价值里很薄的一层。这倒不一定是坏事，他们照样获得了大量价值。但我们发现，一方面要确保为海量普通用户打造一个极其简单、顺滑的体验；另一方面那些最前沿的东西我们也照样给，而且要保证真正在乎的人很容易就能用上。当然，挑战在于不能过度偏向某一边，不能把一个大多数人根本理解不了的东西直接怼到十亿用户面前。不过总的来说，我们的经验是可以先做实验——

[40:44] Ian

early with the the people that really care and that's where we have like our desktop app and we have codecs and now chat work is kind of stepping into a much broader audience which we're really excited about and eventually what we want what we what we know and we think about this a lot in design is like it will tr like things will truly become like for billions of users when they don't have to like think about a switch or a mode or anything like that. And so we know that like eventually it has to kind of get distilled into that main experience. Um but it is like a really fun thing to balance and um we have to think about like people that are using this for free every day to people that are paying us hundreds of dollars and lots of different needs. It's just a matter of sort of balancing and as a designer it does add a lot of complexity for sure to think to you really have to have empathy for every sort of different type of user. Um, but this it it makes it fun for sure.

先在那批真正在乎的人身上做早期实验，这就是我们有桌面端 App、有 Codex 的原因；而现在 ChatGPT Work 正在走向更广的人群，这一点我们特别兴奋。最终我们想要的、我们知道的，也是设计上经常琢磨的一件事是：只有当用户完全不需要去想「切换」「模式」这类东西的时候，它才算真正做给几十亿人用的。所以我们清楚，这些东西最后一定要被提炼、收进那个主体验里。但这种平衡确实是件很好玩的事——我们既要考虑那些每天免费用它的人，也要考虑每月付我们几百美元的人，各种各样的需求都有。说到底就是拿捏平衡；作为设计师，这确实带来很多复杂度，你必须对每一类用户都真的有同理心。不过这也正是它有意思的地方。

[41:39] Lenny

That is such a mind-blowing point you're making about the spectrum of usage of chat GBT and CEX. I I didn't think about it that way. Like is there has there been a product that has such a wide spectrum from just like what's this rash on my finger to building Salesforce, you know?

你刚说的这个「使用光谱」的点太震撼了，ChatGPT 和 Codex 的跨度。我以前真没这么想过。历史上有过哪个产品的光谱这么宽吗？从「我手指上这个疹子是什么」一路到「造一个 Salesforce 出来」，你懂吧？

[41:56] Ian

Yeah. And it and it makes it really hard to you know because I a lot of uh it's so funny like one of the big challenges we're always thinking about is this like blank box problem, right? And people talk about this all the time. It's like is chat really the final frontier? It's a terminal bas it's you know glorified terminal is like some critique that that I think these chatbots get. And then it's like okay so how do you design something that can kind of shapeshift into anything? um you know it's like maybe someone is coming here for image generation for fun or you know they're trying to generate a PowerPoint or you know so having this adaptable interface is like a really interesting uh design challenge and um it's like sort of uncharted territory because it can really like shape shift into many different tools um and it's this like um incredible at so many different things and trying to figure out how to present that. And then thinking about, you know, we think a lot about like a novice user, someone who's sort of brand new to this experience that we want to help them understand how this can add value uh to their lives or to their sort of professional uh work or what whatever whatever capacity they're using this in.

是的，而且这让事情变得非常难做。挺有意思的是，我们一直在琢磨的一个大难题就是所谓的「空白输入框问题」，大家老在讨论这个。就是那句：chat 真的是终极形态吗？它不就是个终端吗，是个「高级版终端」——这是聊天机器人经常挨的批评之一。那问题就来了：你怎么设计一个能随时变形成任何东西的东西？可能有人来这儿是为了图个乐生成张图，也可能是想做一份 PowerPoint。所以做出这种能自适应的界面，是一个非常有意思的设计挑战，而且基本算是无人区，因为它真的能变形成很多种不同的工具，它在太多不同的事情上都极其能干，怎么把这些呈现出来是个难题。另外我们也很关注新手用户——那些完全第一次接触这个体验的人，我们希望帮他们理解这东西能怎么给他们的生活、他们的专业工作，或者不管他们在什么场景下用它，带来价值。

[43:15] Ian

And then we also want to like get out of the way of people that, you know, use this every single day and they use this as like a real workhorse tool. And so designing for that spectrum is something we have to think about a lot. Um but yeah, it's all a world of spectrums I guess.

同时我们又希望别挡着那些天天用、把它当成主力生产工具的人的路。所以怎么为这么宽的一条光谱做设计，是我们必须反复思考的问题。不过话说回来，好像哪儿都是光谱。

[43:31] Lenny

There's a comment that Kevin Wheel, your former chief product officer, made on the podcast that has really stuck with me, which is uh to your point, people always diss this idea of just like it's just like a chat box. Why hasn't it ever changed from that? Even though it has, but still it's kind of this chat chatbot. and he made this really good point that what is an interface that is very good at uh spanning a wide spectrum of intelligence. Uh it's actually just talking. If you think about humans, we talk to people of low IQ to very high IQ. We can all just talk to each other and it's actually a really good interface for uh packaging something that is increasingly smarter and smarter and smarter.

Kevin Weil——你们前任首席产品官——在播客里说过一句话，我一直记着，正好接你这个点：大家老是看不上「不就是个聊天框吗、怎么一直没变过」这件事。其实它变了很多，但形态上还是个聊天机器人。他当时讲了一个特别好的观点：什么样的界面最擅长承载一个跨度极大的智能区间？答案其实就是「说话」。你想想人类，我们跟低智商的人聊天，也跟极高智商的人聊天，大家都能靠说话交流。所以对于一个越来越聪明、越来越聪明的东西来说，说话其实是一个非常好的封装界面。

[44:08] Ian

Yeah. And and I think we're seeing what's what's been really fun design space for us is you know there's two things we think about. One is like how do we how can we help you express your intent better, right? Like uh we don't want you have to think about being a perfect prompt engineer, but like how do we even one teach you that oh this is something that the model can help me with and then how do we make sure that we get we we sort of best understand what you want. And so like, you know, we recently shipped some features where if you ask sort of an open-ended question, it can follow up with, you know, some follow-up questions that you can like just tap through um an answer versus having to type everything out, right? Um or another good example is, you know, so then then once you actually ask it to do something, there's the chat transcript doesn't need to be purely text, right? We've seen these now evolve so far from what it was with when chat just launched. you know, it's no longer just a pure chatbot. It actually has many features within that, right? So, a good example is what we call writing blocks. You ask it to um you know, write you a letter or an email uh and it now contains that um that email in sort of a block that you can directly manipulate and you can type with it and you can brainstorm and you can edit little bits and parts of it. You can copy just that and that has made that interaction much better. And we're seeing the same thing with like image generation and creating special tools for that kind of mode. And I think that's where the UI is going to start to really continue to evolve is how do we make if you're if you come at this and you're a designer, maybe chatbt should actually really look differently uh look different or have different affordances.

对。我觉得我们现在能看到——对我们来说特别好玩的设计空间——主要有两件事。第一是：我们怎么帮你把意图表达得更好？我们不希望你还得琢磨怎么当一个完美的 prompt engineer，但一是怎么让你意识到「哦，这件事模型能帮我」，二是怎么保证我们尽可能准确地理解你想要什么。所以我们最近上线了一些功能：如果你问的是一个比较开放的问题，它会追问几个后续问题，你点两下就能回答，而不用把所有东西都打出来。另一个好例子是：当你真的让它去做一件事的时候，聊天记录本身不必全是纯文本。你看这些东西从 chat 刚上线时到现在，已经演进得很远了，它早就不是一个纯粹的聊天机器人了，里面其实有很多功能。一个典型例子是我们叫「写作块」（writing blocks）的东西：你让它帮你写封信或者写封邮件，现在它会把那封邮件放进一个块里，你可以直接在上面操作，可以在里面打字，可以头脑风暴，可以只改其中一小段，也可以只复制那一块，这让整个交互体验好了很多。图像生成上我们也在做同样的事，为那种模式专门造工具。我觉得 UI 接下来真正会继续演化的方向就在这儿：如果你是个设计师来用它，也许 ChatGPT 就该长得不一样、提供不一样的可操作元素（affordances）。

[45:49] Ian

um or you're you know a a data scientist or you know you're using this for to run your home you know like your your personal life maybe it should really kind of work or look differently so like understanding the context and giving you different affordances based on that is something that you know we're thinking a lot about

或者你是个数据科学家，又或者你是拿它来打理家里、打理个人生活的，那它的样子和用法也许都该不一样。所以理解上下文、并据此给你不同的可操作元素，是我们现在思考很多的一件事。

[46:08] Lenny

in terms of the vision and future of where all this goes I know this is always evolving but is there kind of a sense of what the future of chat gpt codeex is I know there's this idea of a super app. You talked about voice, this personal assistant idea. What's like a way you think about where this goes long term?

说到愿景和未来，这东西会走向哪里——我知道这一直在变——但你们心里对 ChatGPT 和 Codex 的未来大概有个什么样的图景？我知道有「超级 App」这个说法，你也提到过语音、提到过个人助理这个概念。你是怎么看它长期的走向的？

[46:25] Ian

I think that it will start to become more and more adaptive to, you know, all of the context of your life. Um, I think proactivity is a big untapped kind of part of the experience that we're really excited to think about. Um, you know, we're starting to see this with chatd work now where it actually has pretty good suggestions based on, you know, your calendar or your slack or these different sort of inputs and um external kind of context. I think that's going to become more and more important um or kind of shift the way you know you use it. I think voice as you know we we we just had a step change in the model that just feels much more natural and again like you know I can only imagine how that's going to feel in 2 3 years as it just gets better and better. I think people I I do love interacting with chatbt especially voice in like just I want to just kind of like really quickly say something and and then I think like its ability to kind of go sort of like not just from asking questions but actually doing things for you. Um that's all going to change and hopefully all of this gets simpler as we do it too right you know when we think of the super app I think eventually we really think of the idea of especially for our broad consumer base we do think that there should be sort of this one universal input that you can ask that knows when it needs to answer like really quickly or it should be chatty or whether it should go and like go off and do work for you. And so that's a big like excitement that we can get to is how can we continue to simplify the experience such that you shouldn't have to think about how this works. You shouldn't have to think about what model you're on or what sort of speed you're using. You know that like that's like goes back to the balancing the different kind of you know personas and user needs like right of course we want to expose that for the right people but then we

我觉得它会越来越能自适应你生活里的全部上下文。我认为「主动性」（proactivity）是这个体验里一块尚未开垦的大空间，我们对此非常兴奋。现在在 ChatGPT Work 上已经能看到苗头了——它能基于你的日历、你的 Slack 这些不同的输入和外部上下文，给出相当不错的建议。我觉得这一块会越来越重要，也会改变你使用它的方式。语音方面，我们刚刚在模型上有了一次台阶式的跃迁，感觉自然多了；我完全能想象两三年后它会好到什么程度。我自己就很喜欢跟 ChatGPT 交互，尤其是语音，就想很快地说一句话就完事。还有它的能力也会从「回答问题」变成「真的替你去做事」，这一切都会变。而且希望在这个过程中，一切反而变得更简单。我们说「超级 App」的时候，我们最终真正想的是——尤其是面向我们广大的消费者用户——应该有这么一个统一的输入口，你往里问，它自己知道什么时候该秒回、什么时候该多聊几句、什么时候该跑出去替你干一大摊活儿。这是我们特别期待能做到的：怎么把体验继续简化，简化到你根本不用去想它是怎么运作的，不用去想你现在用的是哪个模型、什么速度档位。当然这又回到刚才说的、在不同人群和需求之间找平衡——对那些真正需要的人，我们当然要把这些暴露出来，但同时——

[48:29] Ian

want to make sure that we can get a default experience that works great for for most people. Um, but yeah, I think it's going to be really proactive. I do think that we're going to like get much uh richer sort of input through voice and like richer visual outputs that are more interactive. I think that you'll start to build more durable kind of workflows with attribut that you can kind of use over and over. Right now, you know, it a lot of times it feels like you're coming and starting from scratch each time. and we want to really make this kind of the tool that you can use to to help you uh with whatever sort of task you have.

——我们也要保证有一套默认体验，对绝大多数人来说就足够好用。总之我觉得它会非常主动。我也确实认为，我们会通过语音获得更丰富的输入，通过更可交互的视觉输出获得更丰富的输出。我觉得你会开始搭出更持久的工作流，能反复复用。现在很多时候你感觉每次都是从零开始，而我们真正想做的，是把它变成那种「不管你手头是什么任务都能拿来用」的工具。

[49:04] Lenny

This all sounds wonderful. I can't wait. [laughter]

听起来太美好了，我等不及了。（笑）

[49:07] Lenny

Uh just kind of zooming out a little bit and then I want to talk a little bit to designers again, but you're in this uh epic role right now. I imagine there's a lot of surprises as you entered OpenAI and took on this role. What's something you wish you'd known? What's something you wish you could whisper into Ian of of day one and to give you some advice? I mean so many things. I think you know the first one is like recognizing that we're really early and instead like I actually was pretty intimidated coming to OpenAI if I'm being honest. Um, you know, uh, I remember like, okay, interviewing. Oh, no, I got to like, you know, G GPT4 had kind of recently come out and what GPT, like I, you know, I was like, what is all this stuff? Like, I I was using it and I was using the the stuff, but I I didn't feel like I had a true understanding of of it. And to be honest, I, you know, there's I still have so much to learn. So that idea of like you are early, we're we're figuring this out like that I think I would I would want to hear. And the other thing like that I found uh you know and for me this is more of like a personal thing. It's less about AI or anything but I stepped into a really different role. um you know most of my career I I've managed uh I definitely managed before but never like at a scale that's growing so fast and and then at a company that is like so different you know that it the role was just every day was something new uh and for a long time I felt like I'm kind of like bad at this or you know I don't know what I'm doing um and then I went and like talked to friends that had led like really large design teams dreams or um or or were in a similar transition as me and they all felt exactly the same or the problems that I had were not unique. Um and so you know this is I guess yeah more personal advice that it's like I think at any stage of your career there's that feeling of like imposttor syndrome and

稍微往外拉一层——待会儿我还想再聊聊设计师这块——你现在在一个堪称史诗级的位置上。我猜你进 OpenAI、接下这个角色之后，一定遇到过很多意外。有没有什么是你希望自己当初就知道的？如果能对「第一天的 Ian」耳语一句建议，你会说什么？ 太多了。第一条我觉得是：要意识到我们真的还处在非常早期。说实话，我刚来 OpenAI 的时候其实挺发怵的。我记得当时面试，那会儿 GPT-4 刚出来不久，我心想：这都是些什么啊？我在用这些东西，但我不觉得自己真的理解它。老实讲，到现在我要学的东西还多得很。所以「你处在很早期、我们都在摸索」这件事，我当时就该听到。 另一件事——这个更偏个人层面，跟 AI 关系不大——是我进入了一个非常不一样的角色。我职业生涯里大部分时间都在带团队，我以前肯定管过人，但从没在一个增长这么快的规模上管过，而且是在一家如此不同的公司里，这个角色每天都有新东西冒出来。有很长一段时间我觉得自己「是不是不太行」「我根本不知道自己在干嘛」。后来我去找了一些带过超大设计团队的朋友聊，还有一些跟我处在类似转型期的人，结果发现他们的感受一模一样，我遇到的问题一点都不独特。所以这算是更个人的一条建议吧：我觉得在职业生涯的任何阶段，都会有那种冒名顶替综合征的感觉——

[51:09] Ian

like what am I doing? I don't I don't know how to do this. Finding people you can talk to that are going through the similar things. you'll find that there's usually a lot of shared kind of uh challenges and struggles and having that like sort of whether it's a mentor or just like a a buddy that is like impartial and out of it has was really helpful to me. Um and you know finding that community I think has been has been helpful. Um so yeah so like that and then understanding that this is all so new and evolving really quickly.

——「我在干嘛啊，我根本不会做这个」。去找到那些正经历类似处境的人聊聊，你会发现大家的挑战和挣扎往往是共通的。有这么一个人——不管是导师，还是一个身在局外、能保持中立的朋友——对我帮助非常大。找到那样一个圈子，我觉得真的很有用。所以就是这两点：找到能聊的人，以及理解这一切都还很新、变得非常快。

[51:37] Lenny

That is extremely helpful to hear. Elena Vera had this really great post. I don't know if you know her. She's how to grow to lovable right now. uh she had this great post called stop the AI confidence theater where she just kind of like all these people just keep posting all these things they've done with AI and all the ways it's changes their life and it's just they're killing it figured all out and really it's like very few people like very few of these things are actually that great and working and and it's just like stop stop pretending like this is actually you figured it all out.

这话听着太有用了。Elena Verna 写过一篇特别好的文章，不知道你认不认识她，她现在在 Lovable 负责增长。她那篇文章叫《Stop the AI confidence theater》（别再演 AI 自信秀了），大意是：现在一堆人不停发自己用 AI 做成了什么、AI 怎么改变了他们的生活，好像个个都玩明白了、都摸透了。但实际上，这些东西里真正靠谱、真正跑得通的没几个。所以别再装作自己已经全想明白了。

[52:05] Ian

I think it's much better to be humble about it and be like wow yeah I don't know this is like changing quickly and like I'm just going to embrace it and see where it goes. Yeah, and that connects to what you said was a core component of people that are doing well right now, people that are curious and just kind of poking around and trying to trying these things and try them again because maybe it didn't work now. It didn't work before, now it works now.

我觉得谦逊得多的态度更好：哇，是啊，我也不知道，这东西变化太快了，我就抱着开放心态跟着看它往哪儿走。 对，这也接上你刚才说的——现在做得好的人有一个核心共同点：好奇心强，就是到处捅一捅、试一试，试完再试，因为可能之前不行、现在就行了。

[52:25] Ian

100%. Yeah. It's like being kind of like Yeah. Every every model, every new every new feature, it's like the people that are poking around at those edges, I I found are just having such a blast doing it, you know. And this connects to something else Kevin Wheel, former CPO at OpenAI, said on the podcast, which has always stuck with me, which is the model we have today is the worst the model will ever be.

百分之百。每出一个新模型、每上一个新功能，那些在边界上到处捅一捅的人，我发现他们玩得可开心了。 这也接上 Kevin Weil——OpenAI 前 CPO——在播客里说过的另一句话，我一直记着：我们今天拥有的模型，是它这辈子最差的一个版本。

[52:48] Ian

Exactly. I mean, that that goes back to like when, you know, we we Yeah. I mean, a new model comes out what, every week? I don't know, every day. Like,

完全同意。这就回到刚才说的——是啊，现在新模型多久出一个？一周一个？还是一天一个？

[53:01] Ian

uh, if you count all the labs and and everything, it's like it's changing so quickly and and everyone gets better. Um and I don't know it's like yeah I I always try to remind myself it's like you know you you know it must be like what like I don't know building or designing and like early days of computers when like componentry was like really evolving really quickly and there were these drastic step changes and um you know like you would hit these limitations and all of a sudden those limitations were gone. You know, I think it's the same, right? It's like these things just change and they're what was totally broken yesterday now actually just kind of works.

如果把所有实验室都算上，那变化速度真的太快了，而且大家都在变强。我常提醒自己：这大概就像早期计算机时代做产品或做设计的感觉吧——元器件在飞速演进，一次次出现剧烈的台阶式跃迁，你昨天还撞在某个限制上，突然那个限制就没了。我觉得现在是一样的：这些东西一直在变，昨天完全跑不通的，今天就莫名其妙地能用了。

[53:41] Lenny

So maybe to start to close out the conversation, say a designer is listening to this and they're in that bucket of overwhelmed, anxious, struggling, stressed, uh feeling uncertain about their future. What's one suggestion you have for them to help them move out of that state and into a better place? just recognizing that it's it's a it's a totally rational feeling and it's a great time to just try to explore and see what if I tried working what if I tried you know think rethinking about the the tooling or what if I just embraced like oh maybe I should prototype more let me try you know um try using these tools but again like recognizing that I maybe it helps to hear that I think that we're all still so early and it's and it's still changing and and just kind of embracing that like just have fun with it and and see where it goes. And and I think maybe another thing I would say is really try to focus on the output the outcome, right? At the end of the day, we're not here to build tools like processes. We're not here to like build uh or token max or something like that. we're here to make great software that people love or great products or whatever it is you do. Um, but that's the thing that really matters and if you focus on that, you know, I think that you'll hopefully find that, you know, these tools can help you do that, but you still have a huge role in that as as the person that's kind of steering and directing it.

那我们可能开始收一收。假设有个设计师正在听这期节目，他属于那种被淹没了、焦虑、挣扎、有压力、对自己未来很不确定的状态。你会给他一条什么建议，帮他从这种状态里走出来、到一个更好的位置上？ 首先要认识到，这种感觉完全是理性的、正常的。而且现在是探索的好时机：不如试试换个方式工作？不如重新想想手上的工具链？或者干脆拥抱它——也许我该多做原型，那就试试用这些工具。但还是那句话，要意识到——也许听到这点会有帮助——我们所有人都还处在极早期，一切还在变，接受这一点，玩得开心一点，看它把你带到哪儿去。 另外我想说的一点是：真的要盯住产出、盯住结果。归根结底，我们不是来造工具、造流程的，也不是来把 token 刷满的；我们是来做出人们真心喜欢的软件、做出好产品，或者不管你干的是哪一行的好东西。那才是真正重要的事。如果你盯住这个，我想你会发现这些工具确实能帮到你，但作为掌舵和指挥的那个人，你自己依然扮演着极其重要的角色。

[55:17] Lenny

So, along those lines, I'm going to take us to a couple recurring corners of the podcast. The first corner is AI corner. The question is just what's one way that you have found AI to be really useful in your job that maybe might inspire someone to use say uh JGBT or Codex

顺着这个话题，我想带大家进入播客的几个固定环节。第一个是 AI 环节。问题很简单：在你的工作里，AI 有哪个用法让你觉得特别好用，可能会启发别人也去这么用 ChatGPT 或者 Codex——

[55:34] Ian

as like a designer designer. I mean nowadays I spend less time in the pixels. Um but I really do use it to kind of help me think through broader ideas. Um or may like, you know, I'll have an idea at night or something and then I'll just like quickly, you know, type it in and have it like prototype something and it'll give me like an idea that I can go and talk to the team about and it help visualize something. And so there that's like a part of the design process. It's like early ideas or we're riffing through something and and I can I found that chatbt whether it's CHP work or Codex can like really kind of help me visualize that. That's been something that's been really fun. And then like there's there's more of the operation side, you know, it's like I have it now like checking and making sure that like important Slack uh messages that I need to follow up with are summarized and giving me context before um sort of like uh you know important meetings or for recruiting or for all like every pro every part of my process I I I use this to kind of augment u uh the work that I do.

作为设计师嘛——说实话，我现在花在抠像素上的时间反而少了，更多是用它来帮我把一个更大的想法想清楚。比如晚上突然冒出个念头，我就随手打进去，让它先做个原型出来，它给我的东西往往能变成一个可以拿去跟团队聊的点子，把某个想法可视化出来。这其实就是设计流程的一部分——早期的点子阶段，或者大家在互相碰想法的时候，我发现不管是 ChatGPT 还是 Codex，都能很好地帮我把它画出来，这一点我玩得挺开心。另外还有偏运营的那一面，比如我现在让它帮我盯着 Slack，把那些我需要跟进的重要消息总结出来，在重要会议之前、或者招聘的时候先给我补上背景。基本上我工作流程里的每一个环节，我都会用它来给自己的产出加一层放大。

[56:40] Lenny

It makes sense. on the prototyping piece, just to give someone a tip on how to do this. Are you opening up on your phone and firing off just like a codeex thread? What's like the mechanic of doing this? At

有道理。说到做原型，能不能给大家一个更具体的操作提示？你是直接掏出手机、随手起一个 Codex 的任务吗？具体是怎么个操作法？

[56:48] Ian

CHP work has been incredible because um it now runs fully in the cloud, right? And so the idea is you can kind of just be anywhere and sort of like talk to chat and have it like really spend the time and and come back with like a really great artifact. So, I found that it's been really fun to just be like, "Hey, you know, we're working on I don't know whatever um this thing is like whether it's helped me think through it or um you know, yeah, sometimes I will just have like some ideas that I would love to see like quickly visualize before I even like take it further and it will just like kind of help me like play with it and try it and stuff." And so that's been really fun. The fact that it's so accessible, right? um like I might not even be near a computer or I can you know um I don't know just kind of like have that that flexibility I think is really fun.

Codex 真的太好用了，因为它现在完全跑在云端。也就是说你人在哪儿都行，随口跟它说一声，它就能实打实地花时间去做，最后给你一个相当不错的成品。所以我觉得特别有意思的一点是，我可以直接说：「嘿，我们最近在做某某东西」——有时候是让它帮我把思路捋一捋，有时候我脑子里冒出几个想法，想在往下推进之前先快速看到它长什么样，它就能陪我这么玩一玩、试一试。这个过程真的很好玩。而且它随时随地都能用，我甚至可能根本不在电脑旁边，这种灵活度我觉得特别爽。

[57:43] Lenny

Awesome. Okay, I'm going to take us to another corner uh fail corner.

太好了。好，接下来进入另一个环节——失败环节。

[57:47] Ian

Yeah.

好。

[57:48] Lenny

So the reason I do this a lot of people awesome awesome people like yourself come on the podcast and all people hear is all the amazing things they've done all the ways they've been really successful and they don't hear all the times things didn't work out. And I feel like that's very important for people to hear. It's not always up until the right and success. What's a story of a time you failed in your career and and what did you learn from that?

我之所以设这个环节，是因为很多像你这样很厉害的人来上节目，大家听到的都是他们做成的那些了不起的事、一路怎么成功过来的，却听不到那些没做成的时刻。我觉得这些恰恰特别值得听——人生并不是一路朝右上方走的。你职业生涯里有哪次失败的经历？又从中学到了什么？

[58:12] Ian

I mean there are so many times um I think that I mean even at OpenAI it's like I I think that I found that I've had to learn every step of the way, right? Um, you know, when I first uh joined, I remember, you know, not really even like fully understanding like how I wanted to build a design team and, you know, um, not understanding how to hire or whatever. Um, I mean, just I I sort of felt like I was kind of failing every day, but just kind of like quickly trying to adjust and learn. Um, I think that that uh I I don't know. I mean, that's like maybe kind of a copout answer, but like really just feeling like every day I'm kind of like learning on the go. [laughter] I I feel that my whole career has sort of been that way and that I have never really kind of like planned like any any one step and I've in and sort of like quickly learning from your mistakes. I've shipped plenty of things that did not work out. Um and uh I've also shipped things that you know you know have worked out but like the most many times I I've shipped or you know you try something and it's kind of a failure and uh you know at Instagram we had flops and then we you know we'd like quickly move on. I mean, I worked on IGTV which was like a huge flop and then we shipped reals uh and reals was like we and and I mean that's a good example cuz like we had we we just like kind of baked in some wrong assumptions and we held on to a few constraints but then we learned from that quickly and we were like okay actually let's change that and then we sort of redid it and then it became a really successful product. Um and uh you know I I've seen that many cases many cases of like and that's helped I think that's helped harden me to the sort of critique and feedback of things because you know sometimes you get it wrong sometimes you try something and sometimes it is just about having to like put it out in the world and work through it and um and get the feedback

太多次了。就算在 OpenAI 也是——我发现自己每一步都得现学。刚加入的时候，我其实都没完全想明白自己想把设计团队搭成什么样，也不太懂该怎么招人。那阵子我几乎每天都觉得自己在搞砸，只能靠快速调整、边做边学。我知道这个答案可能有点像在回避问题，但真的就是每天都在路上学。[笑] 我整个职业生涯基本都是这样：我从来没有认真规划过哪一步，就是不停地从错误里快速学。我做砸的东西多了去了。当然也有做成的，但更多时候是你上线了、你试了，结果就是失败。在 Instagram 我们也有过扑街的产品，但我们会很快翻篇。我做过 IGTV，那就是个巨大的失败，后来我们做了 Reels——Reels 其实是个很好的例子，因为我们一开始把一些错误的假设写进了产品里，还死守着几个约束条件，但我们很快就从中学到了教训，意识到「不对，这块得改」，于是重做了一遍，最后它成了一个非常成功的产品。这样的例子我见过很多次。我觉得这也让我对批评和反馈变得更抗打了——因为你有时候就是会做错，有时候你就是得先把东西放到世界上，在真实环境里磨，把反馈收回来，

[1:00:20] Ian

and and iterate and I think that that's like the mo more importantly is not sort of what you shipped one time but how you react and how you um you know how you kind of like fix forward and how you continue to iterate and listen to listen to your users.

然后再迭代。我觉得更重要的其实不是你某一次交付了什么，而是你怎么反应、怎么往前修、怎么持续迭代，以及怎么去听用户在说什么。

[1:00:34] Lenny

This is a very common theme in this corner is just people's careers are like it's mostly failure along the way. [laughter]

这个环节里一个非常常见的主题就是：大家的职业生涯，绝大部分其实都是失败堆出来的。[笑]

[1:00:39] Ian

Yeah, definitely.

确实是这样。

[1:00:40] Lenny

And so I think that's helpful for people to hear.

所以我觉得让大家听到这些挺有价值的。

[1:00:43] Ian

Yeah.

嗯。

[1:00:44] Lenny

Uh okay, before we get to a very exciting lightning round, is there anything else you wanted to share that we haven't covered? If I could distill it, it's like I hope that this is just like a really fun time to build build stuff. And I hope that we, you know, as designers can be really adaptive and focus on making really fun, making really great stuff. And I and I and that I think that designers are just like hope, you know, I think I think great companies are are seeking designers and seeking great great design. And I found that to be really true. There probably going to be a bunch of companies that will be left behind because they haven't shifted, but I think that that there's plenty of room for amazing, great design, and that's going to be more true than ever.

好，在进入激动人心的闪电问答之前，还有什么我们没聊到、但你想分享的吗？ Ian：如果要浓缩成一句话，我希望大家能感受到：现在真的是做东西特别好玩的一个时代。我也希望我们这些做设计的人能保持足够的适应力，把心思放在做好玩的东西、做真正好的东西上。我觉得好公司都在找设计师、都在找好设计，这一点我感受特别真切。肯定会有一批公司因为没能转过身来而被甩在后面，但我认为留给出色设计的空间大得很，而且这一点比以往任何时候都更成立。

[1:01:30] Lenny

I completely agree. I'm very bullish on design.

我完全同意，我对设计非常看好。

[1:01:33] Ian

Yes.

对。

[1:01:34] Lenny

Well, Ian, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready?

那么 Ian，接下来就是我们激动人心的闪电问答环节了。我有五个问题，准备好了吗？

[1:01:39] Ian

Okay. Yes.

好，来吧。

[1:01:40] Lenny

All right. Here we go. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

那我们开始。有哪两三本书是你最常推荐给别人的？

[1:01:46] Ian

I'm not like, you know, it's funny. I'm not like a big big book recommener. Um I think like when people ask me uh I do get asked about like books for design and I'm not I haven't found that many that really have stuck with me like purely design. Although I will say I have I do love the design of everyday things. I think that's like such a classic.

说来好笑，我其实不太爱推荐书。经常有人问我有没有讲设计的书，但纯设计类的书里，真正让我一直念念不忘的其实不多。不过有一本我确实很喜欢，就是《The Design of Everyday Things》（设计心理学），我觉得那本绝对是经典。

[1:02:07] Ian

That's the one that's the one that you know it's not like yeah it's not a unique recommendation. Um, but it it is just kind of a classic of thinking about how you how we think how I think about design. Yeah,

就是那本。当然，这个推荐一点都不新鲜，但它就是那种经典之作——它奠定了我们怎么去思考、也奠定了我自己思考设计的方式。嗯。

[1:02:19] Ian

you have to read it if you're in tech or not in tech.

不管你是不是搞技术这行的，这本书都得读。

[1:02:22] Lenny

Yeah.

对。

[1:02:24] Lenny

Awesome. Uh, anything else there or should we keep moving?

太好了。这块还有别的要补充吗？还是我们继续往下走？

[1:02:27] Ian

We can keep moving. Yeah,

继续吧，嗯。

[1:02:28] Lenny

let's do it. Favorite recent movie or TV show that you have really enjoyed?

那走起。最近有什么特别喜欢的电影或者剧集？

[1:02:33] Ian

Okay, so I have one that actually is not a movie or TV show, but it's a I I'm in New York. I just saw a Broadway show

好，我有一个，其实既不是电影也不是剧——我人在纽约嘛，前不久刚看了一部百老汇的音乐剧，

[1:02:41] Ian

um called Maybe Happy Ending.

叫 Maybe Happy Ending（《也许美好结局》）。

[1:02:44] Lenny

Yes. I've seen it. Love it so much. Yes.

对！我看过，太喜欢了，真的。

[1:02:47] Ian

Oh, you saw it? Okay. Yeah. It was so unique, right? Um and of course it kind of hit home a little bit because it's about these like super intelligent humanoid uh robots and like you know um but um but the the production was incredible. the set uh design, everything about it I thought was like so unique. Um which was um I thought Yeah. So if you have the chance to see it, I thought it was really really good. Um I also just saw the invite which was I thought and [laughter] have you seen it?

哦你也看了？那太好了。它真的特别独特，对吧？而且说实话，它多少也戳中我了，因为讲的就是那种超级智能的人形机器人……不过整个制作水准太惊人了，舞台设计、方方面面，我都觉得特别独特。所以……对，如果你有机会一定要去看，我觉得真的非常非常好。另外我最近还看了 The Invite，我觉得……（笑）你看了吗？

[1:03:23] Lenny

Yes. Also love it. So simple but so good.

看了，也超喜欢。特别简单，但特别好。

[1:03:26] Ian

It that's what I loved about it is it's like so simple. It's like it actually is a like a play, you know, and it's just four people in one kind of beautiful apartment and the set design is amazing. Um, but like the writing, act, everything about it was like incredible and it's just kind of a wild ride [laughter] and I went in knowing nothing about it. I thought it was incredible.

我最喜欢的就是这一点——它太简单了。它其实就是一出话剧，就四个人，在一间挺漂亮的公寓里，舞台设计特别棒。但剧本、表演，所有环节都做得特别厉害，整个观影过程像坐过山车一样（笑）。我进场之前对它一无所知，看完觉得太牛了。

[1:03:52] Lenny

Excellent taste, sir. I love both those so much. Uh, and the invite just came out. It's in theaters right now.

品味真好啊，先生。这两部我也都特别喜欢。The Invite 刚上映，现在院线还在放。

[1:03:57] Ian

Yeah. Next question. Favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love. I I feel kind of like a typical Silicon Valley person recommending this one or something. But um I did finally switch to an EV after having uh many cars for a long time and I got a Rivian and um I don't know they just I do respect the design a lot of just kind of how they've really made it just all of the they like I think if you know probably Tesla's similar but like there's a lot of assumptions that how get operating a car should work have gone away. You just walk up to it, it unlocks, you know? It's like you just like you don't have to like turn on and off the car. And it's cool to see like that evolving. Of course, I love, you know, at Whimos are probably if if I could like own a Whimo right now that that is the most magical experience in the world. Um, and uh I I'm waiting on baited breath for that to to be broadly accessible for everybody. Do you have a favorite life motto you find yourself coming back to in work or in life?

嗯。下一个问题：你最近发现的、特别喜欢的产品是什么？我推荐这个可能显得像个典型的硅谷人，不过我确实终于换电车了——之前开了很多年油车。我买了辆 Rivian。我挺欣赏它的设计的，就是他们把很多东西……我猜 Tesla 大概也差不多，但很多关于「车该怎么操作」的固有假设被直接拿掉了。你走过去，车就自动解锁了，对吧？你也不用去做启动、熄火这些动作。看着这种东西一点点演进挺酷的。当然我也很喜欢 Waymo——如果我现在就能拥有一辆 Waymo，那大概是世界上最神奇的体验了。我特别期待它早点普及到每个人。你有没有什么人生格言，是工作或生活里会反复回到的？

[1:05:07] Ian

Not necessarily other than I think it like kind of trying to sum up like how I felt about all of this is like have fun with it and like just try stuff. Um and you know I think don't feel like I've never felt like you have to fit into a specific box. Um, and know that it's perfectly all right to be very fluid about the way you work or the way you think about things and um, I don't know, be flexible and adaptable. But yeah, it's not quite a life motto. More of a vibe of just trying to like have fun with it and and build great stuff.

倒没有特别明确的。非要说的话，大概就是我对这一切的整体感受——把它当成好玩的事去做，多去试。我从来没觉得自己必须塞进某个特定的框里。你得知道，工作方式也好、看事情的方式也好，非常流动是完全没问题的，保持灵活、能适应就行。不过这算不上人生格言，更像是一种状态：玩得开心点，然后做出好东西。

[1:05:42] Lenny

I I I should shift this question to what's just like the vibe. What's [laughter] the vibe that's been helpful to you? Because I love that. It's very a Sam Alman in terms of just you can just build stuff.

我真该把这个问题改成「你的 vibe 是什么」（笑）——什么样的状态对你最有帮助？因为我特别喜欢这个说法。这很 Sam Altman，就是那种「你完全可以自己动手做点东西」的感觉。

[1:05:50] Ian

Exactly. Yeah.

对，就是这个意思。

[1:05:52] Lenny

Okay. Last question. Something I love about your career history. If you look at your LinkedIn, you were a designer at Groupon. I love that you are at Groupon and now you're heading design for essentially super intelligence. [laughter] Uh what's something you learned at Groupon that is is being is maybe helpful these days building

好，最后一个问题。你的职业履历里有一点我特别喜欢：翻你的 LinkedIn，你当年是 Groupon 的设计师。这个反差太有意思了——你在 Groupon 干过，现在在给基本上等同于超级智能的东西做设计负责人（笑）。你在 Groupon 学到的哪件事，放到今天做

[1:06:08] Lenny

super intelligent AI?

超级智能 AI 的时候，反而还挺有用的？

[1:06:10] Ian

I love that. Groupon was a really fun company. Um, Andrew Mason was like a really incredible CEO and just that he brought such character uh to the product, you know, it was like kind of a brandled product. Um, and um, you know, like we we had a there was like a a comedy team. Uh there was like a writer team at at at but they were like all comedians basically and the product really did not take itself seriously at least in its early early couple years. It was like it was it didn't take itself seriously and I think that the brand really stuck out, right? You weren't signing up for Groupon because NEC I mean of course the daily deal was great. You were getting like 50% off something but people loved that email because it was like really well written and it was funny and it was and it had character and I thought that like the early on the company did a really good job with with brand and sort of embracing uh that side of things. Um and and I think the other thing if I were to carry that forward is I found that every company that I've worked for has such unique DNA and the way you have to work kind of maybe changes a little bit based on that right. So I you know Groupon was run one way you know then I went to Instagram which was like this very design and and creativity focused and Kevin's you know Kevin Cyrum was you know really like an incredible designer and he he sort of saw himself or like worked in that way with us which was really cool and it just created a different way of working and then you have like Sam Alman who's like a completely different way of operating and he's like uh you know I you know, and then and open being a research lab. And so learning that companies have these really different DNAs and understanding how to sort of embrace them and kind of leverage that to your uh like or help kind of like empower that or like I guess lean into that um has been something that I've learned a lot um from moving around and

我太喜欢这个问题了。Groupon 是一家特别好玩的公司。Andrew Mason 是个非常了不起的 CEO，他给产品注入了很强的个性，那基本上是个品牌驱动的产品。我们当时有一个喜剧团队——名义上是文案团队，但里面基本都是喜剧演员。那个产品在最早的一两年是真的不把自己当回事，它就是不端着。我觉得也正因如此，品牌才特别突出，对吧？你订阅 Groupon 并不是因为……当然每日团购本身也很棒，你能拿到五折之类的，但大家喜欢那封邮件，是因为它写得真的好，很好笑，有性格。我觉得公司早期在品牌上、在拥抱这一面上做得非常好。另外一件我会一路带走的事是：我发现我待过的每家公司都有非常独特的 DNA，你的工作方式多少得跟着它变，对吧。Groupon 是一套运转方式；然后我去了 Instagram，那是一家极度看重设计和创造力的公司，Kevin Systrom 本人就是个非常出色的设计师，他也确实是用那种方式跟我们一起工作的，特别酷，这就形成了一种完全不同的做事节奏；再往后是 Sam Altman，那又是完全不同的一套运作方式；再加上 OpenAI 本身是个研究实验室。所以，意识到公司之间的 DNA 差别真的很大，并且学会怎么去接纳它、借力它——或者说去放大它、顺着它来——是我换过这么多地方之后学到最多的东西，

[1:08:23] Ian

getting the opportunity to work at very very different companies.

也得益于我有机会在非常非常不同的公司里工作过。

[1:08:26] Ian

And also just to add to that, it's also important to realize you're not going to change that. you're not gonna like come in and change that culture because that's just that's very hard especially if it's very founder oriented.

还有一点要补上：同样重要的是要意识到，这东西你是改不了的。你没法空降进去就把那套文化给改掉，那太难了，尤其是在一家高度以创始人为核心的公司里。

[1:08:36] Ian

I think it's about finding like oh wow like at OpenAI you know yeah sure like we spent more time at Instagram we definitely moved slower and I would say that we um we changed the product less and that actually worked really well for most stages uh of of Instagram. uh but I don't think that that would work in in the current stage of where we're at with open AI and that way of working. Of course, I bring a lot to that and I think like you know at at um at Instagram we have this motto like do the simple thing first and we always use that and we really embrace that. I've tried to carry that through to the way I think about building product at at OpenAI. Um but that's not the only way I think of working. You know, sometimes it's actually not necessarily the right way to think about. Sometimes we actually do throw some things out that we're still experimenting with. And so just being really I found that having to yeah be flexible and yeah, not necessarily trying to change it, but try trying to kind of like help round it out. Maybe.

我觉得关键是要意识到——「哦，原来在 OpenAI 是这样的」。当然，我们在 Instagram 花的时间更长，节奏明显更慢，而且我得说，我们对产品的改动要少得多。那套做法在 Instagram 的绝大多数阶段都非常奏效，但我不认为它适用于 OpenAI 现在所处的阶段和工作方式。当然，我自己也带了很多东西过来。比如在 Instagram 我们有一句口号：先做最简单的那件事。我们一直用它，也真心信它，我也试着把这句话带进我在 OpenAI 做产品的思考方式里。但那并不是我唯一的工作方式。有时候那个思路其实并不见得对，有时候我们确实会把一些还在试验中的东西直接扔掉。所以我发现，最重要的是保持灵活——不是非要去改变这个地方，而是尽量帮它把缺的那一块补圆，大概是这个意思。

[1:09:36] Lenny

Ian, what a what an incredible uh place you have in the world right now. Just being on the inside of such cool technology, such cutting edge stuff that's happening. Uh, and I feel very fortunate that you found time to chat with us and share what you're seeing, where things are heading. Two final questions. Where do you want to point people? If you want to plug anything and how can listeners be useful to you?

Ian，你现在所处的位置真的太难得了——身在这么酷、这么前沿的技术内部。我很幸运你能抽时间跟我们聊，把你看到的东西、事情正在往哪儿走都分享出来。最后两个问题：你想把大家引向哪里？有什么想推荐的吗？还有，听众能怎么帮到你？

[1:10:00] Ian

Where do I want to point people? I mean, I think that um please, you know, I guess use, you know, have fun with with the stuff we're making with JBT and Codex and fire away feedback and thoughts. I'm on Twitter. Uh I love to talk with designers uh at all sort of stages. Um or not just designers, engineers, PMs, whatever. Um, that's probably where I'm most uh sort of reachable and accessible. Um, and you know, how can you? Yeah, I think to be useful. Again, it's like I love when when people do show off the way they are kind of working and how that's kind of shifting and that's like a great way for us to learn how we can we can build better products both like internally at OpenAI but just as a as a design community like maybe showcasing a little bit more of our process because it is becoming a little bit more opaque like well how is it working just um I think sharing that is is like such a gift to the community so doing more of that

我想把大家引向哪里？我想说的是，请大家尽情去玩我们做的这些东西——ChatGPT、Codex，然后把反馈和想法尽管砸过来。我在 Twitter 上，我很喜欢跟各个阶段的设计师聊天——不光是设计师，工程师、PM，谁都行，那大概是最容易找到我、也最容易联系上我的地方。至于怎么帮到我？我特别喜欢看到大家把自己的工作方式亮出来，看到这些方式正在怎么变。这对我们来说是特别好的学习机会，既帮我们在 OpenAI 内部做出更好的产品，也帮整个设计社区——多展示一点我们的过程。因为这个过程正变得越来越不透明，大家都在问「这到底是怎么运作的」，我觉得把它分享出来对社区来说就是一份礼物。所以，多做一点这样的事。

[1:11:01] Lenny

also point people to your website which I have here now. And I think my face is probably changing colors because the site [laughter] has all these crazy colors.

我也想把大家引向你的个人网站，我现在正开着。我的脸大概正在变色，因为这个网站有一堆疯狂的颜色（笑）。

[1:11:09] Lenny

So, if you go to Iansber.com, you could see this uh insane website. That's [laughter] your personal website and there's a

所以如果你打开 iansilber.com，就能看到这个疯狂的网站（笑），那是你的个人主页，而且上面还有——

[1:11:15] Ian

Yeah, that's a deep dive into all of my past work. You can see there. Yeah. [laughter]

对，那上面是我过往作品的深度呈现，你都能在那儿看到。（笑）

[1:11:20] Lenny

And the trick is you Yeah. You'll have to discover the Easter egg where there's a game in involved.

而且诀窍是——对，你得自己去发现那个彩蛋，里面藏了一个小游戏。

[1:11:25] Ian

That's right.

没错。

[1:11:25] Lenny

Uh

呃……

[1:11:26] Ian

see if you can set the high score.

看你能不能刷出最高分。

[1:11:28] Lenny

Yeah. This high scores are out of control. I don't know what's happening. [laughter] Someone's found a cheat code. Uh, Ian, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for doing this.

是啊，那些最高分已经离谱到不像话了，我都不知道发生了什么（笑），肯定有人找到作弊码了。Ian，非常感谢你来这一趟，感谢你抽时间做这期节目。

[1:11:36] Ian

Buddy, this was awesome. Super fun.

老兄，这太棒了，聊得特别开心。

[1:11:38] Lenny

Same. Bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennispodcast.com. See you in the next episode.

我也是。各位再见，非常感谢你的收听。如果你觉得这期有价值，可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或你常用的播客 App 上订阅本节目。也请考虑给我们打个分或者留条评论，这真的能帮到更多听众找到这档播客。所有往期节目和更多信息都可以在 lennyspodcast.com 找到。我们下期见。