Head of Growth (Anthropic): Anthropic is automating its own growth

频道: Lenny's Podcast
视频: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-H4nsOTuxU
原文语言: en
统计: 共 84 轮 · Lenny 42 · Amole 42

[0:00] Lenny

A lot of companies claim to be the fastest growing companies of all time. Anthropic actually is. You guys were at a billion ARR at the start of 2025. The last number I've seen is 19 billion ARR. That's 1 to19 billion in 14 months. Historically, we were very much the smallest, least wellunded player in this space. We didn't have the free cash flow or the distribution of a Meta or Google. We didn't have the first mover advantage of an OpenAI. It's a complete miracle that we've gotten to the stage that we have. give us just a glimpse of what it's like to be leading growth inside of Anthropic.

很多公司宣称自己是有史以来增长最快的公司。Anthropic 确实是。你们年初在 10 亿 ARR，我看到的最新数字是 190 亿 ARR。也就是 14 个月内从 10 亿增长到 190 亿。说实话，我们过去一直是这个领域里规模最小、资金最少的玩家。我们没有 Meta 或 Google 那样的现金流和分销能力。我们也没有 OpenAI 的先发优势。能走到今天这个阶段简直是奇迹。能给我们讲讲在 Anthropic 领导增长是什么感受吗？

[0:33] Amole

This is the hardest job I've had in my life. To come into anthropic, you need to understand that 50 60 70% of how you operate in the past, just throw it out the door.

这是我人生中最难的一份工作。来到 Anthropic，你得明白一点：你过去 50、60、70% 的做事方式，都要彻底抛弃。

[0:41] Lenny

One of the cleverest growth moves you all made was this idea of importing memory from chat GPT. Activation is a really big challenge in AI. We are starting to look at how do we automate growth. Our growth platform team is driving this effort called cash which is claude accelerate sustainable hyperrowth. How can we use claude to automate growth experimentation and it's delivering results. You're basically living in the future. We always talk about the exponential. The product value that we will deliver in 2 years time is probably like a,000x what it is today. The funniest thing is I've noticed internally linear charts are just not cool. Everything is log linear. Just show me at log linear scale. Today my guest is Amole Evasari. Amole is head of growth at Anthropic which is on the most unprecedented growth run in history. In the past 14 months, they grew from 1 billion to over 19 billion in annual recurring revenue. Just in the past few months, their revenue doubled. They've been growing 10x year-over-year. This is unheard of at this scale. By the time this episode comes out, their revenue will be even higher. To put this scale in perspective, companies like Atlassian and Palunteer and Snowflake, which have been around for 15 to 20 years, each do something like 4 1/2 to 6 billion in ARR. Anthropic is adding this much ARR every few months. And if that isn't interesting enough to you, Amole who leads growth at Anthropic is an incredible human. He previously led growth at Mercury and Masterclass. Before that, he was a founder and an investment banker. And most interestingly, something that most people don't know about him is that Amole suffered a severe brain injury. He had to spend 9 months relearning how to walk and work and just not be nauseous all the time. He shared this story in a guest post in my newsletter a number of years ago. We actually chat about this during the conversation. These are my favorite kind of conversations because Amole and his team are living in the future and he's come to tell us where things are heading and what's going to change. And in this episode, AMOLE shares an unprecedented look at how a company like Anthropic operates and grows, including how they think about growth, what parts of the job they've automated, the future of the product and growth roles, how Mole got the job in the first place by cold emailing my Kreger, and so much more. A mole is wonderful, and just try to count the number of times that he blew my mind during this conversation. Before we get into it, don't forget to check out Lenny's productass.com for an incredible set of deals available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers. With that, I bring you Amole Avisari. Amole, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast. Pleasure to be here. Head of growth at Anthropic. No big deal. I've had a lot of people come on this podcast from companies that claim to be the fastest growing companies of all time. And Anthropic actually is. is if you look at the trajectory, I just have some of the numbers here just so people understand how absurd this is. So you guys were at a billion ARR at the start of 2025, then hit something like 4 billion mid2025, then 9 billion ARR at the end of 2025. And the last number I've seen is you guys are at 19 billion ARR, which uh just to put a couple pieces of context here. One is that's from1 to$19 billion in 14 months. Um I have so many questions. First of all, the story of how you actually landed this role is really interesting. Talk about how you how you got this role.

你们最聪明的增长招数之一就是从 ChatGPT 导入用户记忆的想法。在 AI 中，激活是个很大的挑战。我们开始思考如何自动化增长。我们的增长平台团队在推动一个叫 CASH 的项目，就是 Claude Accelerates Sustainable Hyperrowth。我们怎样用 Claude 来自动化增长实验呢？它正在产生成果。你们基本上活在未来。我们总是谈论指数级增长。我们两年后交付的产品价值可能是今天的 1000 倍。最有趣的是，我注意到公司内部线性图表已经不酷了。所有东西都是对数坐标。大家都说'给我看对数坐标'。今天我的嘉宾是 Amole Evasari。Amole 是 Anthropic 的增长负责人，这家公司经历了人类历史上最前所未有的增长期。在过去 14 个月里，他们从 10 亿增长到超过 190 亿年度经常性收入。仅在过去几个月，他们的收入翻了一番。他们一直保持着 10 倍的年同比增长。在这个规模上，这是闻所未闻的。到这集播出时，他们的收入会更高。为了说明规模，想想 Atlassian、Palanteer 和 Snowflake 这样存在了 15 到 20 年的公司，每家大约做 45 亿到 60 亿 ARR。Anthropic 每几个月就在增加这么多 ARR。如果这还不够让你感兴趣，Amole 这位 Anthropic 增长领导者是个了不起的人。他之前在 Mercury 和 Masterclass 领导增长。在此之前，他是创始人和投资银行家。最有趣的是，大多数人不知道的是，Amole 经历了严重的脑外伤。他花了 9 个月重新学习走路、工作，还有就是不总是感到恶心。他几年前在我的通讯里写过一篇客座文章分享这个故事。我们在对话中也聊过。这就是我最喜欢的那种对话，因为 Amole 和他的团队活在未来，他来告诉我们事情将如何发展、什么会改变。在这集里，Amole 前所未有地深入讲解了像 Anthropic 这样的公司如何运营和增长，包括他们如何思考增长、哪些工作他们已经自动化了、产品和增长角色的未来、Amole 是如何通过冷邮件 Mike Creger 得到这份工作的，还有更多。Amole 很棒，你可以试着数一下这段对话中他让我想法改变了多少次。在开始之前，别忘了查看 Lenny's Podcast 的网站，那里有专属于 Lenny 通讯订阅者的不可思议的优惠。那么，我给你介绍 Amole Avisari。Amole，非常感谢你来，欢迎上播客。很荣幸在这里。Anthropic 增长负责人。没什么大不了的。我请过很多人上这个播客，他们都说自己所在的公司是增长最快的。Anthropic 真的是。如果你看轨迹的话，我这儿有一些数字，让大家明白这有多荒唐。你们年初在 10 亿 ARR，然后 2025 年中期达到 40 亿左右，2025 年底 90 亿 ARR。我看到的最新数字是你们在 190 亿 ARR，也就是说，从 10 亿到 190 亿只用了 14 个月。我有太多问题了。首先，你是怎么得到这个职位的故事真的很有趣。你能讲讲吗？你是怎么入职的？

[4:15] Amole

Yeah, it's a little unorthodox. So, it was funny when I when I did my onboarding, they they walk through what percentage of the cohort came through referrals, what percentage came through applying on the website, what percentage came through uh sourcing. And I was on none of those. And I was like, okay, this is interesting. And basically the the way that I I got to was that I was actually a user of Claude and I was using a lot. I was like, man, these guys like great product, great company, but they they really like obviously don't have a growth team. And uh what I did was I just sent Mike Creger a cold email. He was the chief product officer. I sent him a cold email saying like, "Hey, love what you guys do. Love the product. I think you guys badly need a growth team. Want to chat?" And uh I didn't expect he would respond. And uh you know, he responds and says, "Hey, yeah, I'm interested. Let's let's talk." And it's funny, I didn't know. I mean, I wouldn't have known. They were not hiring for a growth team. There were no growth GM roles listed, but they were just at that time starting to think about hiring a growth team. So, it was very good timing. But yeah, one one spoke to spoke to Mike and and one thing led to another. He said, "I'm the only PM that he's hired from from cold email and I I feel very lucky that he decided to respond to my email."

嗯，这有点不走寻常路。我入职培训时，他们走过了一遍数据：多少百分比的人通过内部推荐进来，多少通过网站申请，多少通过主动搜寻。我都不属于这些。我就想，好吧，这很有意思。基本上我是通过这样来的：我其实是 Claude 的用户，而且用得很频繁。我就想，伙计，这些家伙产品很棒、公司很棒，但他们显然没有增长团队。所以我就给 Mike Creger 发了一封冷邮件。他是首席产品官。我发邮件说，'嘿，我很欣赏你们做的东西。喜欢这个产品。我觉得你们急需一个增长团队。想聊聊吗？' 我本来没指望他会回应。但你知道，他回应了，说'嘿，是啊，我有兴趣。我们聊聊吧。' 有趣的是，我不知道——我是说，我不会知道。他们当时没有招聘增长团队。没有挂出任何增长 GM 职位，但他们那个时候正好开始考虑招聘增长团队。所以时机很好。但是，我和 Mike 聊了，一件事接着一件事。他说，'我是他唯一一个通过冷邮件招进来的 PM，我觉得能有他回应我的邮件实在太幸运了。'

[5:30] Lenny

I did not know the story. That is that is another uh absurd fact. Uh clearly you're good at cold email. What did you do in this cold email to get his attention? I would say like I've basically perfected cold email over the years. So I was a when I was a founder, I I had to get really really good at this. So I I sent a lot of cold emails out and just honed the the the subject line, the message and and the tone and and so basically I've in the subject line the first thing is like from a conversion standpoint, someone sees the email, they need to click on it. And so I have a copy that I've tested that is like very very high uh open rate. And so

我不知道这个故事。太荒唐了。显然你很擅长冷邮件。你在这封冷邮件里做了什么来吸引他的注意？

[6:10] Amole

wait, what is this copy or is this a secret?

我会说，我多年来基本上完善了冷邮件。我当创始人时，我得真正擅长这个。所以我发了很多冷邮件，打磨了主题行、信息和语气。基本上我在主题行上做了很多测试——转化角度来说，有人看到邮件，他们需要点开它。所以我有一个我测试过的文案，打开率特别高。然后——

[6:12] Lenny

It's a secret I think.

等等，这个文案是什么？还是个秘密？

[6:13] Amole

Okay, we'll keep it we'll kind of keep secret. Um so that's one getting them to open. I think the second is then the tactics of you need to understand like where are people getting outreach and if you if everyone's getting outreach in one area and then uh you reach out to them there then then you're not going to get as high of a response rate. So you think about like LinkedIn, if you think about like work email, these are things that everyone is emailing. So there's there's ways to get people's personal emails out there. And so like that's one thing that I did. And so, okay, I've got his personal email. I know the copy that works. And then it's just keeping it very short on here's who I am. Here's why I'd be a good fit and and we should chat. And and these things typically don't work. And then you you should always follow up a few times. I think my rule of thumb is like if I really care about it, I should just keep keep reaching out to them and until they tell me like, "Please stop." And so I would have I would have kept doing that, but he responded the first time. It makes sense that a talented growth person would be very good at cold email and getting people's attention. So that's almost like an interview step as just did I want to read this email. This episode is brought to you by our season's presenting sponsor, WorkOS. What do OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor, Versell, Replet, Sierra, Clay, and hundreds of other winning companies all have in common? They are all powered by work OS. If you're building a product for the enterprise, you've felt the pain of integrating single signon, skim, arbback, audit logs, and other features required by large companies. Work OS turns those deal blockers into drop-in APIs with a modern developer platform built specifically for B2B SAS. Literally, every startup that I'm an investor in that starts to expand up market ends up working with Work OS. And that's because they are the best. Whether you are a seedstage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer or a unicorn expanding globally, work OS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise ready and unblocking growth. It's essentially Stripe for enterprise features. Visit works.com to get started or just hit up their Slack where they have actual engineers waiting to answer your questions. Workos allows you to build faster with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience. Go to work os.com to make your app enterprise ready today. Okay. So, give us just like a glimpse of what it's like to be leading growth inside of anthropic right now, the most by far fastest growing company in history. Just what is it like?

我觉得是秘密。

[8:36] Lenny

Yeah, I'd say I'd say it's very much a companywide effort, right? So, like yes, we we are the growth team. We have done great. I think we've driven a lot of impact but honestly man we can't claim too much credit for the success of the company like we we as Anthropic are really a model company and an intelligence company first and and foremost and so the the lion share of of like what has driven our success is our research team we have I think the best research team in the world we have great teams on inference and compute and then there's many other teams like claude code go to market etc who I think deserve much more credit than us I think Just zooming out going to some of what you said earlier that the growth trajectory has just been insane that that 10x year revenue growth trend has been there since the beginning. I think 2023 was 0 to 100 mil. 2024 was 100 to one. Uh last year was one to to roughly 10. And like I I look back to when I joined in 2024 revenue was in the the hundreds of millions. and just that trajectory. So, the end of 2024 and 2025, like week two of when I joined, we're going into 2025 revenue planning and we have these like base case and aggressive case scenarios. And Daria is pushing the aggressive case scenario and people are freaking out being like, how the hell are we going to hit that? And Dar's like, I think we can actually go much higher than that. And I'm I'm coming in like this this place is crazy. Like, there's there's absolutely no way. Um, and and and that happened, right? and and and then you you get to the end of 2025 and it's like okay law of large numbers there's going to be a pretty big slowdown here based on you know your baseline rate of of 10 billion how are you going to keep growing at this rate and like it just like has not slowed down and and you know those numbers are public the the 19 billion number you you quoted is from the end of Feb so that is also out of date um and it's a look it's absolutely insane like the the funniest thing is something that I've noticed internally is like linear charts are just like not Cool. Like no one cares about linear charts. Everything is log linear. Show me at log linear scale and that's that's kind of scale we think. And I think overall we're just you know really hanging on by the seat of our pants. So we're trying to manage the growth and um do do the best that we can for our users. I was talking to somebody at Anthropic about you and they said that basically anytime they want something to grow they ask you to help and it works. So you talked about just like things are magical and amazing and like like Claude and all the tools you all build are amazing innately and that's a big part of the reason they grow. I think many people listening to this will be like what do you even do a mole with like a magical micro god that just can do anything for you? Why do we need a growth person? What do you even do? Talk about just the stuff that you focus on and maybe like a couple of the wins that your team has shipped that has helped accelerate growth.

好吧，我们就保密了。所以那是第一步，让他们打开。我觉得第二个是你需要理解，像，人们在哪儿收到外联邮件，如果每个人都在一个地方收到外联邮件，然后你也在那儿联系他们，你就不会有那么高的回应率。所以你想想 LinkedIn，想想工作邮箱，这些是大家都在用的东西。所以有办法拿到人们的个人邮箱。所以，好吧，我弄到了他的个人邮箱。我知道什么文案有效。然后就只是保持简洁——这是我的身份，这是我为什么适合，我们应该聊聊。这种东西通常不起作用。然后你应该总是跟进几次。我的经验法则是如果我真的在乎这个，我应该就一直联系他们，除非他们告诉我，'请停止。' 所以我会一直这么做，但他第一次就回应了。这很有道理，有才能的增长人员会非常擅长冷邮件和吸引注意力。所以这几乎就像是一个面试步骤——我想读这封邮件吗？这集由我们的当季主赞助方 WorkOS 呈现。OpenAI、Anthropic、Cursor、Vercel、Replit、Sierra、Clay 和数百家其他成功公司有什么共同点？他们都由 WorkOS 驱动。如果你在为企业构建产品，你一定经历过集成单点登录、SCIM、RBAC、审计日志和其他大公司所需功能的痛苦。WorkOS 将这些交易阻碍因素变成了即插即用的 API，具有专为 B2B SaaS 构建的现代开发者平台。坦诚地说，我投资的每家初创公司，只要开始向上扩展市场，最后都会用上 WorkOS。这就是因为他们是最好的。无论你是种子阶段的初创公司试图登陆你的第一个企业客户，还是一个独角兽全球扩张，WorkOS 是成为企业就绪并解锁增长的最快路径。它本质上是企业功能的 Stripe。访问 workos.com 开始或直接去他们的 Slack，那儿有真正的工程师在等着回答你的问题。WorkOS 让你用令人愉悦的 API、全面的文档和顺畅的开发者体验构建得更快。去 workos.com 今天让你的应用变成企业就绪吧。好的。所以，在 Anthropic 内部领导增长是什么感受，这家迄今为止历史上增长最快的公司。就是什么感受？

[11:21] Amole

I would say like they're not fully wrong, right? like we're we're very very lucky to have the best models in the world. We're very lucky to have products like Claude Code and and Co-work. It it it certainly makes life a lot easier. Um having said that, I would say this is like the hardest job I've had in my life and that's uh you know, having been a founder, having been an investment banker and other things like that. Uh it's it's it's tough. And if I if I look at what do we do as a growth team here, I think it's it's it's ultimately it's the same categories of things that you would think about at a normal company. So we care about acquisition, how are we getting more more people in the door, the the intent of the people coming through the door. We care about activation, the the signup flow, funneling people to the right products, making them them successful, you know, we care about things like monetization, free or paid conversion, pricing and packaging, all all of that stuff. The categories of work is the same. I think then the the probably the big differences is I would say that like roughly 70% of what I I spend my time on is is what we internally refer to as success disasters and that is where like things have gone so well that other things are breaking now and and I think anyone who's worked at companies that have gone through rapid growth uh you think like Facebook or or Uber or Door Dash early on like they understand this viscerally where scaling this much just brings a lot of challenges. So if you think about each of those categories on acquisition, on activation, on monetization, there's just a ton of firefighting jumping from like one urgent thing to another. And it's often like extremely painful and and like it's funny because you look at all the charts, all the charts are like green, like fully up into the ride and everyone's just like it's it can be quite tough emotionally still. And so you need to sort of step back and just realize like we're very lucky to have these problems. But that's sort of 70% of my time I'd say is just these like firefighting of success disasters. And I think the 30% remaining is just much more standard bread and and butter growth work where it's like more proactive. So you think about okay if we have limited resources which which are the products we have many different products. Which are the products we want to put some juice behind? What is our long-term pricing and packaging look like? Especially given that the technology is changing a lot and and behavior and engagement trends are shifting. And then you know things like we have a lot of new products coming up like okay you you ship co-work now what like when is the right time that we should lean in as a growth team to start optimizing the core adoption funnel for for co-work so it's probably yeah 70% just crazy firefighting 30% more more breadandbut stuff.

我想说，这很大程度上是全公司的努力。所以，是的，我们是增长团队。我们做得很好。我觉得我们推动了很多影响。但说实话，我们不能把太多功劳往自己身上揽，因为我们，Anthropic 首先是一家真正的 AI 和智能公司。所以驱动我们成功的绝大部分是我们的研究团队。我觉得我们有世界上最好的研究团队。我们在推理和计算上有很棒的团队，然后还有很多其他团队，像 Claude Code、进入市场等等，我觉得他们比我们值得更多的功劳。我觉得退一步看，根据你早前说的，增长轨迹一直都是疯狂的，那 10 倍年收入增长的趋势从一开始就有。我觉得 2023 年是 0 到 1 亿，2024 年是 1 亿到 10 亿，去年是 10 亿到大约 100 亿。我回头看我 2024 年加入时，收入是几亿。在 2024 年底和 2025 年初，我加入的第二周，我们在做 2025 年的收入规划，我们有这些基础案例和激进案例场景。Daria 在推激进案例场景，人们都快疯了，'我们怎么可能达到那个目标？' 然后 Daria 说，'我觉得我们其实能做得比那高多了。' 我就进来了，像，这地方疯了。绝对没可能。但，它发生了。然后你到 2025 年底，就像，好吧，数字法则，根据你的 100 亿基线增长率，会有相当大的放缓。你怎样才能继续保持这样的增长率呢？然后它就像，根本没有放缓，你知道这些数字是公开的，190 亿这个数字你提到的是二月底，所以那也已经过时了。总之，它绝对疯狂。最有趣的是我在公司内部注意到的东西是，线性图表就像，根本不酷。没人关心线性图表。一切都是对数坐标。给我看对数坐标，这就是我们思考的规模。总的来说，我们就像，拼命坚持住。我们在尝试管理增长，为我们的用户做最好的。我和 Anthropic 的某个人聊过你，他们说基本上，只要他们想让什么增长，他们就问你帮忙，然后就有用。所以你说到只是，东西是神奇的、令人惊叹的，以及 Claude 和你们构建的所有工具本身都很了不起，这是他们增长的大原因。我觉得很多听这个的人会想，Amole，你到底做什么啊，像，一个魔法的微神可以为你做任何事，我们为什么需要增长人员？你到底做什么？说说你关注的东西，也许说几个你的团队已经交付的胜利，帮助加速增长的。

[13:53] Amole

Okay I'm going to dig into a lot of that stuff. One of the cleverest growth uh moves you all made recently was this idea of importing memory from chat GBT where you just made it really easy and kind of jumped on this trend of people getting really excited about anthropic. Is there anything you could share about this the behind thes scenes story of that feature? We're always thinking about what can we do to improve the the cold start problem and improve the new user experience? I think that activation is a really big challenge in in AI. And so, you know, that's like one one example of something that that we shipped that was very um you know, specific to a moment in time. But ultimately that you zoom out, it's like, okay, how do you really how do you really make it easier for people who are signing up to have Claude understand who they are and understand how Claude can help them and get them to to the right place?

我想说，他们不是完全错了，对吧？我们很幸运能有世界上最好的模型。我们很幸运有 Claude Code 和 Co-work 这样的产品。这确实让生活简单多了。话虽如此，我想说这是我人生中最难的工作，这个，你知道，考虑到我做过创始人、做过投资银行家和其他的事。这真的很难。如果我看看我们作为增长团队做什么，我觉得最终来说，这些都是你在普通公司会想到的东西。我们关心获取，我们怎样才能让更多人进门，来的人的意图。我们关心激活，注册流程，把人引导到对的产品，让他们成功。我们关心像变现这样的东西，免费或付费转化、定价和打包，诸如此类。这些工作的类别是一样的。我觉得然后大概最大的不同是我想说的是，大概 70% 的我花时间做的东西我们内部称之为成功灾难，那就是事情进行得太顺利，以至于其他东西现在坏掉了。我觉得任何在经历快速增长的公司工作过的人，你想象像 Facebook 或 Uber 或 DoorDash 早期那样，他们会深刻理解这一点，扩大这么多规模只会带来很多挑战。所以如果你想象一下在获取、激活、变现这些类别中的每一个，就有大量的消防工作，从一个紧急的东西跳到另一个。这通常非常痛苦，而且有趣的是，当你看所有的图表，所有的图表都像绿色，完全向上爬升，每个人都像，这在情感上仍然可能相当艰难。所以你需要有点退一步，意识到我们很幸运有这些问题。但那就像是我时间的 70%，我想说就是这些成功灾难的消防。我觉得剩下的 30% 更多是标准的面包和黄油增长工作，这更像是更主动的。所以你想象一下，好吧，如果我们资源有限，我们有很多不同的产品。我们想在哪些产品上用力？长期定价和打包会是什么样的？特别是考虑到技术在变化很多，行为和参与趋势在转变。然后你知道，我们有很多新产品来临，像，好吧，你现在推出 Co-work，然后呢？什么时候是我们作为增长团队应该开始优化 Co-work 核心采用漏斗的合适时机？所以可能是的，70% 只是疯狂的消防，30% 更多标准的面包和黄油东西。

[14:43] Lenny

I want to follow that thread activation. This is something that comes up a ton when I talk to people leading driving growth on AI products. It's just like like there are so much stuff trying to get your attention these days for people to get to a place where they okay wow this is really going to be something I I want to keep using it. It proves to be really hard and it's also just unreliable sometimes it's not going to be magical. It's AI. It's non-deterministic. I guess one is just like uh how important is focusing on activation getting people to that aha moment with AI products? and two, what are some things you've learned about how to do that well with with cloud and AI in general?

好的，我要深入这些东西很多。你们最近做的最聪明的增长举措之一是从 ChatGPT 导入记忆的想法，你们让这真的很简单，基本上乘上了人们对 Anthropic 兴奋的这一趋势。有什么你能分享关于这个功能的幕后故事吗？我们总是在想我们能做什么来改善冷启动问题和改善新用户体验。我觉得激活在 AI 中真的是一个大挑战。所以，你知道，那就像一个例子，我们交付的东西，非常具体到一个时刻。但最终，你缩小范围，就像，好吧，你怎样真正让注册的人更容易让 Claude 理解他们是谁，以及 Claude 怎样能帮助他们，让他们去对的地方？

[15:18] Lenny

Yeah, it's a good question. I I think that activation it's it's critical, right? And and and defining that as like early activation, call it day zero, day one product experience. I think that historically anyone who's who's been in growth or been in product understands that that's that's usually one of the highest levers that you have to actually even increase like longer term retention. And I think that that the importance of that has just gotten exponentially higher. Now zooming out, I feel like one of the biggest problems in the industry is capability overhang where the the models are just getting better so quickly and and it the the real challenge is on the product side of how do we start to um diffuse those benefits to to to people where even internally like there's there's new models coming internally and you're sitting there you're so busy and and when it when you when a new model's available you you need to like really carve out time to be like what what can this do? how do I need to update my priors? And and if you think about more broadly for most people, you may have a model that is like you may have AGI or some, you know, model that can do all sorts of crazy things, but if if people's instinct is to come there and be like, hey, what's the weather in SF? Then, you know, they're not going to get the the most out of of of the product. And and so I think that it's it's it's tough because the model capabilities are rising so much. So like if I if I think about okay back when we had I don't know say like opus 4 at that there's there's a series of things the model can do at that point and and opus 4.5 unlocked a whole bunch of new things. you think about, okay, we sit there, we've got this new model, Opus 4, the the time to then go and run a bunch of tests, figure out, okay, there's the capabilities from this new model. What are the right on-ramps to to guide people to those features? You know, you run you run tests, you get the learnings, you then ship a new flow. By then, you may already have the next model which unlocks newer capabilities that makes all these learnings irrelevant, right? So, like it's actually just like a really difficult problem to to stay on top of. I think that many of the same things, same old trends in in in growth and activation remain I think accurate where to me it's like ultimately the some of the highest leverage is from finding the right product or the right feature for the right user and uh I think that one learning you've seen this time and time again across companies actually like the right friction helps and and adding more friction usually works if you do it the right way. I think that's something I've consistently seen that we we've seen here as well. Uh so to me, I think it's really un being able to identify which what are the characteristics of a user that allows you to then recommend them to the right feature or product and not being shy about adding friction to to do that I think is probably like the single biggest thing that that's important here. When I asked uh Ben Mann, one of the co-founders, former podcast guest, what to ask you about, and this is what he highlighted is your experience, especially at Mercury redoing onboarding and making it magical. And basically, he's in the same uh place as you of just how important it is for people to understand what the AI tools capable of to help people decide to use it and stick with it. Is there an example of something you changed in onboarding that helped significantly improve activation? Yeah, it's a great great question and and I I like that he brings up Mercury. I I talk about their their product a lot. So, worked on the growth team at Mercury. I think it's a fantastic product. It's something many people use and the reason they use it is because it's a better banking experience than

我想追随那条线激活。这是我和驱动 AI 产品增长的人聊天时一直出现的东西。就像这些天有那么多东西在争夺你的注意力，对于人们来到一个地方，好吧，哇，这真的会是我想继续使用的东西。这被证实了真的很难，而且有时也就是不可靠。有时不会是神奇的。这是 AI。它是非确定性的。我想一个是，关注激活，让人们在 AI 产品中有那个啊哈时刻，有多重要？第二个是，你学到了什么关于怎样用 Claude 和 AI 一般来做好那件事？

[18:47] Amole

Yeah, I'm a I'm a very happy customer just to put it out there. I love it.

嗯，这是个好问题。我觉得激活，这很关键，对吧？定义那个就像早期激活，称之为第 0 天、第 1 天的产品体验。我觉得历史上任何在增长或产品方面做过的人都能理解那通常是你实际上甚至增加像更长期保留这样的东西的最高杠杆之一。我觉得那的重要性刚好指数级上升。现在退一步，我觉得业界最大的问题之一是能力过剩，模型增长就是那么快，而且，真正的挑战是产品端的怎样开始把这些好处扩散到人们那儿，即使在内部，像，有新模型来了，你在那儿，你太忙了，当一个新模型可用时，你需要像，真的拿出时间，像，这能做什么？我怎样更新我的观点？而且如果你更广泛地想，对大多数人来说，你可能有一个模型，像，你可能有 AGI 或某个，你知道，模型能做所有这些疯狂的东西，但如果人们的本能是来那儿问，'嘿，旧金山的天气怎么样？' 然后，你知道，他们不会从产品那儿得到最多。所以我觉得这很难，因为模型能力上升那么快。所以像如果我想，好吧，回到当我们有我不知道，说像 Opus 3.5 的时候，有一系列东西这个模型在那个点可以做，然后 Opus 3.5 解锁了一整堆新东西。你想想，好吧，我们坐在那儿，我们得了这个新模型，Opus 3.5，然后的时间去跑一堆测试，想明白，好吧，这个新模型的能力。什么是对的入口来引导人们到那些功能？你知道，你跑测试，你得到学习，你然后提交一个新流程。到时候，你可能已经有了下一个模型，它解锁了新的能力，让所有这些学习无关了，对吧？所以，像这真的就像一个非常难的问题来保持最高。我觉得许多相同的东西，在增长和激活中的相同的老趋势保留，我觉得准确，我觉得最终最高的杠杆之一来自为对的用户找对的产品或对的功能，而且我觉得一个学习，你在公司中一次次看过这个，实际上像对的摩擦帮助，加摩擦通常有效如果你以对的方式做。我觉得那是什么我一直看到我们在这儿也看到。所以，我觉得真的，联合识别什么是用户的特征让你然后推荐他们到对的功能或产品，而且不胆怯加摩擦来做那个我觉得可能像这里最单一最重要的东西。当我问 Ben Mann，一个共同创始人，前播客嘉宾，问你什么，这是他强调的是你的经历，特别是在 Mercury 重做入职并使其神奇。而基本上，他在和你一样的地方，只是有多重要让人们理解 AI 工具能做什么来帮助人们决定使用它并坚持下去。有什么例子是你在入职中改变的，帮助显著改善激活吗？嗯，这是个伟大伟大的问题，我很喜欢他提到 Mercury。我经常谈论他们的产品。我觉得这是一个很棒的产品。这是很多人使用的东西，他们使用它的原因是因为它是比传统银行更好的体验。

[18:50] Lenny

Great product. Highly recommend it. They have personal banking. Everyone should go go and use it.

我是一个非常满意的客户，只想说出来。我喜欢它。

[18:54] Amole

Right. They just launched that.

好产品。高度推荐。他们有个人银行。每个人都应该去使用它。

[18:54] Lenny

I I I and and and so I think that the interesting thing about Mercury is like the core value is that it's a better experience, right? that that's the reason you use it. You're not getting like better other things. It's just it's a better product experience. And so the that ethos is very very deeply held within the company. It comes from uh a number of the founders. And um I think that we we had a big push one quarter when I was there on on the onboarding flow. So onboarding flows for for banking institutions and regulated entities are extremely complex. like the the the amount of time I've spent on the difference between like a registered agent address and a legal address and a physical address like these things are very very complex and we we basically looked at the onboarding flow and we were like okay we we've invested so much in quality in the rest of the product but we haven't really done it here and this is the first experience that people have and and so we said forget metrics forget growth forget everything else as the growth team on conversion we're going to spend a whole quarter fixing quality in in this flow. And so that's all we did. Like forget the metrics. We're just going to make this as good of an experience as we can and fix all these like you go back from one field to the other field and adding in your beneficial ownership details. And it actually ended being like and probably until I joined here like the the single most impactful quarter that I've ever had as a growth PM in terms of the impact that it had. And so we saw a significant uplift from uh on basically our like onboarding started to to completion from from just focusing on quality. And so that that to me is like a broader learning around quality drives growth that I think I I've tried to to to bring to anthropic. I think for us at Enthropic um you know some of the things that we've done in the onboarding flow uh is is basically like we we ask users questions around who who they are what their interest areas are and we we then use that to recommend different products and features and like number of people look at the flow and they're like you have so much friction it's such a long flow and like we have the data we're kind of happy you with how that's performing. What is your kind of a philosophy on friction good friction versus bad friction? I've just seen time and time again at every job I've been in in growth that adding friction and adding the right steps uh leads to higher conversion and and higher funnel completion. So you want to get rid of an I think especially if you have high volume you should test the majority of this and just learn and and see like does this apply to your business as well. But you you want to you want to get rid of annoying friction that doesn't add value. But the the like I think the most simple understanding people have is like just get just just just solve time to value. Cut all the steps and just get them into the product and and like that doesn't work most times. I think if you if you're if you've really thoroughly tested your flows, I look at the companies I've been at masterass. If you go through masterclass's purchase flow right now, you'll go through all these steps in this this quiz when you land on when you're trying to buy and it's like you're like, I came here to buy and it's taking me through all these questions. What are you here for, etc. I think it's easy to look at that and be like, why why do they have this? This is like a terrible thing. Just cut it all. And it's like no, like that's been thoroughly tested and and actually there's like a significant revenue driver uh because it helps users feel that the product is for them by understanding what their interests are and then recommending the content and and classes there. One of the the growth PMs on our team left to to join Karm.com the meditation app. If you go to K's uh you know their landing page and you go through their purchase flow, their login flow, you'll see a quiz. It's like not not a not a a coincidence. But at Mercury, we also tested I think um I think you might posted on Twitter like we broke out some steps in onboarding and just having one screen if you have like five or six different form inputs and you you often break that into two screens and reduce the cognitive load to people that that is something that that performs well. We added steps into the flow there that that actually performed well. Same at at anthropics. So I think that the takeaway to me is like cut friction when it doesn't add to the experience of helping a user understand why the product is for them. But if you can help users understand a product, why a product is for them and like how to use it and and what's what's most relevant to them and it's going to add friction, uh don't shy away from it. Test it, confirm that it works for you. But I I think this is like a something that like most growth practitioners deeply understand

对。他们刚推出的。

[23:28] Amole

and the for them is really important there. What you described is adding friction to better understand who they are so that you know how to recommend the right thing for them.

我，所以我觉得关于 Mercury 有趣的东西是像核心价值是它是一个更好的体验，对吧？那就是你使用它的原因。你没有得到像更好的其他东西。它就是一个更好的产品体验。所以那个精神在公司内非常非常深深持有。它来自创始人的一些。而且，我觉得我们在我在那儿时有一个大推动一个季度在入职流程上。所以银行机构和受管制实体的入职流程是极其复杂的。像我花的时间量在像注册代理地址和法律地址和物理地址之间的区别上，像这些东西是非常非常复杂的。而且我们基本上看了入职流程，我们像，好吧，我们已经投入了那么多质量在产品的其余部分，但我们在这儿没有真的做过，这是人们有的第一个体验，所以我们说忘掉指标，忘掉增长，忘掉其他一切，作为转化增长团队，我们要花整个季度修复这个流程中的质量。所以那就是我们做的。像忘掉指标。我们只是要让这个体验尽可能好，修复所有这些像你从一个字段回到另一个字段的东西，加入你的受益所有者细节。而且它最后被像，而且可能直到我加入这儿，像我作为增长 PM 有过的最单独最有影响的季度在影响方面。所以我们看到了一个显著的提升，基本上在我们的入职到完成，只是关注质量。所以那对我来说就像一个更广泛的学习，质量推动增长，我觉得我一直试图把那个带到 Anthropic。我觉得对我们在 Anthropic，你知道，有些东西我们在入职流程中做的就是基本上像我们问用户关于他们是谁、他们的兴趣区域是什么的问题，然后我们使用那来推荐不同的产品和功能，以及像有些人看那个流程，他们像你有那么多摩擦，这是一个那么长的流程，而且像我们有数据，我们有点高兴你怎样那个在执行。你对摩擦的哲学是什么？好摩擦对比坏摩擦？我一直一次次看到，在我在增长中的每个工作上，加摩擦和加正确的步骤导致更高的转化和更高的漏斗完成。所以你想要摆脱一个我觉得特别是如果你有高体积你应该测试大部分这个，只是学习和和看像这个是否也适用于你的生意。但你你想要，你想要摆脱令人厌烦的摩擦，不加值。但像我觉得最简单的理解人们有的是像只是得到只是只是只是解决时间到价值。切掉所有步骤，只是让他们进入产品，和像这在大多数时间不起作用。我觉得如果你如果你真的彻底测试了你的流程，我看看我曾经在的公司 Masterclass。如果你现在经历 Masterclass 的购买流程，你将经历所有这些步骤，这个这个测验当你登陆当你试图买，而且它像你像，我来这儿买而且它正在带我经历所有这些问题。你在这儿做什么等等。我觉得很容易看那个和像，为什么他们有这个？这像是一个可怕的事情。只是切掉它所有。而且它像，不，像这已经彻底测试过了，而且实际上有像一个显著的收入驱动因为它帮助用户感到产品对他们来说通过理解他们的兴趣是什么，然后推荐那儿的内容和类。在我们的团队的成长 PM 之一左边去加入 Kam.com 冥想应用。如果你去 K 的呃你知道他们的登陆页面，你通过他们的购买流程去，他们的登录流程，你将看到一个测验。它像不不不不一个不一个巧合。但在 Mercury，我们也测试我觉得呃我觉得你也许推特上贴过像我们在入职中破开一些步骤，只是有一个屏幕，如果你有像五个或六个不同的表单输入，你你经常把那个分成两个屏幕，减少到人民的认知负荷，那那是什么那执行得很好。我们加了步骤到那儿的流程中那执行得很好。同样在 Anthropics。所以我觉得那个的收获对我来说像切摩擦当它不加到帮助用户理解为什么产品对他们的体验。但如果你能帮助用户理解一个产品，为什么一个产品对他们来说，和像怎样使用它，而且什么是最与他们相关的，而且它会加摩擦，呃不羞怯从它。测试它，确认它对你起作用。但我我觉得这像一个东西像大多数增长从业者深深理解

[23:38] Lenny

Correct. Yes. And like that that like done right that just it just flows through right. So it helps you with activation but then it helps you with life cycle. you know more about those users and why they're here and and like you know most sophisticated businesses you can then even if someone drops off you can do like lookalike targeting and you can get you can get them at the ad layer as well. So that that initial piece of how you understand the who the user is is just like it's a juice that just keeps on giving if you if you then use it right further down funnel.

而且为他们真的很重要。你描述的是增加摩擦来更好地理解他们是谁，所以你知道怎样推荐对的东西给他们。

[24:05] Amole

Everyone's about to go do a bunch of tearowns of Claude's on boarding, masterclass on boarding, Mercury on boarding. Uh kind of as a tangent, I was at this PM dinner recently and I was asking all the PMs, how is your role as a PM changed most with AI? Like where is AI most impacted what you do? And one of the PMs answered that is actually doing competitive analysis doing a bunch of like tear downs of what other people are doing for pricing pages and onboarding. So it's easy to do now. Just hey co-work would co-work for this or cloud. What would you use for that? Okay, this is good. Help people pick which tool to use. If you want to go do a bunch of tear downs of other competitors onboarding flows, what would you use? You can use you can use co-work for this, right? Um so you have co-work with the Chrome extension. So if you task co-work with a Chrome extension, go and look for these these flows and uh show me give me a view of what's working, what's not, that's definitely something that that co-work can do.

完全正确。是的。而且像做得对，那就流过去了。所以这帮助你的激活，但然后它帮助你的生命周期。你知道更多关于那些用户的，以及他们为什么在这儿，而且像你知道大多数成熟的企业，你甚至能，如果有人掉线，你能做像相似的目标，你能得到你能在广告层面得到他们。所以那初始的你怎样理解谁用户的部分就像，它是只是一个一直给予的果汁，如果你然后在漏斗下游正确地使用它。

[24:58] Lenny

Cool. I think I imagine that's one of the challenges is like you have all these tools now just which one's for me. Um by the way, the Chrome extension, I use it all the time. It's amazing. I want to drill a little bit further into the growth org.

每个人要去做一堆 Claude 入职、Masterclass 入职、Mercury 入职的拆解。呃作为题外话，我最近在一个 PM 晚宴上，我问所有 PM，你的 PM 角色最主要怎样改变了 AI？像 AI 最影响了什么你做的？而且一个 PM 回答的是实际上在做竞争分析，做一堆其他人做的定价页面和入职的拆解。现在很容易做。就像嘿 Co-work 对这个有用吗或 Claude。你怎样用那个？好吧，这很好。帮助人们选择使用哪个工具。如果你想去做一堆其他竞争者入职流程的拆解，你会用什么？你可以为这个用 Co-work，对吧？呃，所以如果你用 Chrome 扩展给 Co-work 安排任务，去看那些流程，而且呃给我一个视角什么在起作用，什么不是，那肯定是 Co-work 能做的东西。

[25:10] Amole

There was this whole meme on Twitter the other day of just like you have one growth marketer driving all growth at Enthropic and it's like okay that's crazy. What's like how many growth people are there? What's kind of the rough org structure of the growth team?

很酷。我想象那是一个挑战，像你现在有所有这些工具，只是哪个是给我的。呃顺便说一下，Chrome 扩展，我一直在用它。太棒了。我想再深入一点增长组织。

[25:22] Lenny

We're roughly maybe 40 people now. And so we are I think structured very much like a traditional growth team in that we have sort of horizontals of of growth platform and monetization who think about the the the the sphere of growth across the the entirety of our products. And then we we have more sort of audience focused growth pods. You can think about like B2B growth. You can think about cord code growth, knowledge worker growth, API growth. So, so really like these audiences to to keep a narrow focus, which is the thing you have to do when you have so many different products. Uh, and then these these horizontals that that sort of think about things um across across the board.

Twitter 上前几天有这整个段子，就像你有一个增长营销人员驱动 Anthropic 所有增长，就像，好吧，那疯了。有多少个增长人员？增长团队的大概组织结构是什么样的？

[26:05] Amole

And is it a cross uh a team of engineers, designers, PMs? What's kind of like the functions within this growth or? Yeah, it's it's engineers, designers, PMs, data. Um, I think that overall the shape of the org is quite similar to I'd say a traditional um growth team. Probably the things that are maybe different is that we I think that we index a lot more towards larger swings as opposed to smaller optimizations. Like if I think about a traditional growth team, I would have probably done maybe 60 70% of my time on small to medium bets, 20 to 30 um% on on larger swings. And I think that for us, we we we we flip it a lot like we we do much more the other way where it's sort of 7030 or more like 50/50 um rather than than than indexing towards smaller bets. That's probably like one of the the biggest changes. I I think just to highlight that what's interesting there is at the scale you guys are at like a 1% win is massive in the scheme of things. So it's interesting that even at the scale you're at you're not focusing on these micro optimizations. It is easy like you could easily focus on these small optimizations and then you tally them up at the end of the quarter and be like look how much impact we made and like you could do that

我们现在大概也许 40 个人。而且所以我们是我觉得结构化很大程度上像一个传统的增长团队，我们有像增长平台和变现的水平方向，他们想象增长的球体跨越我们所有产品的整体。而且然后我们有更像观众关注的增长小组。你能想象像 B2B 增长。你能想象 Claude Code 增长、知识工作者增长、API 增长。所以，真的像这些观众保持狭隘焦点，这是当你有那么多不同的产品时你必须做的事情。呃，然后这些水平方向跨越整个董事会想象事情。

[27:26] Lenny

another billion no big deal.

而且这是跨职能的团队，工程师、设计师、PM 吗？这个增长里的功能大概是什么样的？是的，这是工程师、设计师、PM、数据。嗯，我觉得整体组织的形态相当相似，我想说一个传统的增长团队。可能与众不同的东西是我们我觉得我们更多地指数朝向更大的摇摆而不是更小的优化。像如果我想象一个传统的增长团队，我可能已经花也许 60 70% 的我的时间在小到中等赌注，20 到 30，呃百分之在更大的摇摆上。而且我觉得对我们来说，我们翻转很多像我们做很多不同的方式，其中它像是 70/30 或更像 50/50，呃，而不是比较偏向更小的赌注。那可能像是最大的改变之一。我，我觉得只是强调什么有趣在那儿的是在规模你们在一个 1% 赢是大规模上的大规模。所以有趣的是即使在规模你们在，你没有关注这些微优化。这很容易，像你能容易关注这些小优化，然后你把他们加起来在季度末，像看我们做了多大影响，而且像你能做那个

[27:27] Lenny

Yeah. But but the the thing is like we're we're we've been tracking a 10x year on year and we we we you know that's like the the thing that we we sort of keep in mind and I think it like ultimately comes down to our fix fixation at this company about the exponential. I think if you look at anyone is talking about talking from anthropic about basically anything we always talk about the exponential like it's is effectively as model capabilities continue to grow on an exponential um and and the tools around them enable a better job of of diffusing that into into uh useful use cases. You basically just keep unlocking new markets that where where the value of those markets significantly dwarfs what the value of of the previous markets were. And like aentic coding is a great example like it didn't exist you know a year a year and a half ago and then now just the value of agentic coding is is bigger than the like previous market of of AI coding use and and so I think that is like the core thing here where just that the future product value is an order of magnitude higher than it is today and I think about I don't know like a a normal business like number of companies that I maybe mentioned or like you think about like a a trading app or like a grocery delivery product like they're all many of the like the leading companies they're great businesses but if I think about what is the product value that the a company like a standard like call it a grocery delivery app like what is the product value you get as an end user today versus two years from now I I I look at it as like okay in two years from now even if you're you're shipping all these new products as an end user the value you get from that product maybe goes up like 30 to 50% if the company's done a really good job of of shipping new features. It's not exponential though. And and and and so if I think about okay, you're here today, in 2 years you're going to have 30 to 50% more product value, then as a growth team, the like relative differential of the product value 2 years from now relative to today, I can actually capture like a decent percentage of that with the small to medium optimizations that typically have higher conviction as opposed to like larger bets. But for anthropic it it's not really that way where where the because of the exponential and and our products being like very very very the the product value coming from AI the um the the product value that we will deliver in two years time is probably like a thousandx 100 to a,000x what it is today and so if I think about that and it's like there's so much value on offer you need to shift more towards okay we need to take larger bets and we need to not not sort of miss the the forest for the trees and and so that's why we we do we still do all the smaller optimizations. It really matters and like no one else is going to do some of these things and so we we need to do it. The compounding value is not immaterial but we we do take on much larger core producty type of swings as well. So you mentioned it the chrome extension like that is now the thing that underpins a number of use cases on co-work and and uh and cloud code as well and that's something that the growth team built that's like a very like AI product that is like a very research heavy product but we we were just bullish on it. We had an an engineer who was very bullish on it and we were just like hey no one else is doing it we're going to do it and and so that's the sort of thing that I wouldn't have done at another company. Oh wow, that's I did not know that. So the takeaway one takeaway here is like you know there's like stuff to extract from your advice that is like only true at anthropic and then there's what can other companies learn from this experience that you've had? So one is is your sense that if you're working in AI shift more of the pie chart towards bigger bets because in the future the opportunity is so large you want to get find those as soon as possible versus micropimize to be more specific there. It's I would say that it's if the primary value that your product delivers is underpinned by AI as as a a central element of it then I think you should operate this way. So I don't know companies like yeah lovable cursor you know all these like great businesses that are like it's as the exponential rises their their value props are also going to continue to rise significantly like if if you're building a product where it's it's an AI first product then I would definitely operate in this way. I think if you're building a product where you're it's not necessarily an AI first product and you have some AI features that are on the side but it's not the core of your value I don't know that I would operate this way. It would need to I would it would depend on how is the rest of the product all staffed and how is the growth all staffed in relation to that.

又一个 10 亿，没什么大不了的。

[32:14] Amole

Okay. Awesome. And then in terms of the way you're structured I thought that was really interesting. It's like a combination of different sorts of things. So there's like uh the API growth, there's cloud code growth, but then there's also like personas like a vertical of like knowledge workers and B2B. Is that intentional? Like some specific bets and one just kind of like broad market opportunity. When you have like one product, it's easier to to have a growth team that's more like purely on the funnel, right? It's like you have the conversion, you have activation, you have monetization. But as you start to get into having multiple products, I think that's harder because if you do that then, you know, if you just have like one activation team for example, but then you have cord code, you have co-work, you have all the other things, they're very different audiences and and and they're very different sets of crossunctional stakeholders internally. So, we're kind of looking at what what is the thing and all structures are like not perfect and they're like right for a point in time, but we're looking for what is the structure that allows us to have as much focus like focus is a really big thing and um on on audience and and uh and and problems and and uh and also the tie-ins to cross functional partners is really really important like the the folks on our claude code growth team like they work extremely closely with Kat and Boris and the others uh on that team and so that that tiein is is is really important as well.

是的。但但东西是像我们在追踪一个 10 倍年同比，而且我们，我们，你知道，那像是东西我们排序保持在心里。而且我觉得最终来说，它归结到我们这个公司关于指数的固定。我觉得如果你看任何人从 Anthropic 谈论大概任何事，我们总是谈论指数，像它实际上，当模型能力继续在指数上增长，而且围绕他们的工具启用更好的工作把那扩散到有用的用例。你基本上只是继续解锁新市场，那些市场的价值显著超过以前市场的价值。而且像 agentic coding 是一个好例子，像它不存在，你知道，一年、一年半前，然后现在只是 agentic coding 的价值比以前的 AI coding 使用市场要大。而且，所以我觉得那就像这儿的核心东西，其中只是未来产品价值是比今天高一个数量级，而且我觉得关于我不知道，像一个正常的生意，像有一些公司，我也许提到或像你想想像一个交易应用或像一个杂货递送产品，像他们所有都有很多的，像前导公司，他们是很棒的生意，但如果我觉得什么是产品价值，一个公司，像一个标准，像称之为一个杂货递送应用，像什么是产品价值你得到如最终用户今天与两年从现在我我看那个像好吧，在两年从现在，即使你是你运送所有这些新产品，如最终用户，价值你得到，从那个产品，也许去起来，像 30 到 50%，如果公司已经做了一个真的好的工作交付新功能。它不是指数级的。而且而且所以，如果我觉得好的，你在今天这儿，在 2 年你要有 30 到 50% 更多产品价值，然后，如一个增长团队，像相关的差异，产品价值，2 年从现在相对到今天，我能实际上捕获，像一个体面百分比的那个与小到中等优化，那通常有更高的信心与相反的喜欢更大的赌注。但对 Anthropic，它它不真的那样，那儿那儿，因为指数，而且而且我们的产品是像非常非常非常，产品价值来自 AI，而且，这产品价值我们会交付两年时间可能像一个千 x，100 到一千 x，什么它是今天，而且，所以，如果我觉得那个，而且它像，有那么多价值在提供，你需要转变更多朝向好吧，我们需要拿更大的赌注，而且我们需要不不排序失去森林因为树。而且，所以，那是为什么我们我们做，我们仍然做所有更小的优化。它真的重要，而且像，没人其他人要做一些这些东西，而且，所以，我们我们需要做它。复合价值是不不物质的，但我们我们要拿关于更大的核心产品类型的摇摆也好。所以你提到它 Chrome 扩展，像那是现在东西，那基础有一些用例在共同工作，而且，而且呃，而且 Claude Code 也一样，而且，那是东西增长团队建造，那是像一个非常像 AI 产品，那是像一个非常研究重的产品，但我们我们是只是看好它。我们有一个一个工程师谁是非常看好它，而且我们是只是像嘿，没有其他人是做它，我们要做它，而且，而且，所以，那是那种东西，我不会在另一个公司做。哦，哇，这就是我不知道那个。所以收获，一个收获这儿是，像你知道，有像东西，提取从你的建议，那是，像只有真在 Anthropic，然后有什么，能其他公司，学习从这个体验，你已经有了？所以一个是是你的感觉，如果你在工作在 AI 转变更多的馅饼图表朝向更大的赌注，因为在未来机会是那么大，你想得，找那些只是尽快对比微优化，更具体在那儿。它是我会说，那是，如果初级价值，你的产品交付，是基于 AI 作为一个一个中心元素的它，然后我觉得你应该以这种方式操作。所以，我不知道，公司像是的，可爱的，Cursor，你知道，所有这些，像好生意，那是，像它，如指数上升，他们他们价值提议也去继续上升显著，像如果如果你在构建一个产品，那儿，它是，它是一个 AI 优先产品，然后我会肯定以这种方式操作。我觉得如果你在构建一个产品，那儿，你，它不必然一个 AI 优先产品，而且你有一些 AI 功能，那在侧边，但它不是核心，你的价值，我不知道，我会以这种方式操作。它会需要，我会，它会取决于，怎样的这个其他产品，所有的人员配备，而且怎样的增长所有的人员配备在关于这个。

[33:34] Lenny

So you've done growth at a lot of different companies, a lot of basically let's call it traditional growth before anthropic. How else is growth as a function and as a skill set changing with the rise of AI, AI products, AI startups? I think if your your your core product value is very backed by AI then it is it is shifting where you're you're skewing more towards larger bets as opposed to smaller medium experiments. I think in um other things maybe a big big thing related to this that I think will accelerate this which I am really interested to see how it will play out is we are starting to look at how do we automate growth which I think is like a really interesting area. So our growth platform team um we have a we're very lucky we have like Alexe Kamisuroka teaches growth engineering at Reforge and he's just like the guy on the team and and so he is driving this effort um that it's it's the name is it's a little cringey. I didn't come up with it but it's like it's called cash which is Claude accelerates sustainable hyperrowth. I I did not come up with that. Um

好吧，太棒了。然后在你怎样结构化的方面，我觉得这真的有趣。这像是不同类型东西的组合。所以有像呃API增长，有Claude Code增长，但然后还有像角色的人物的竖立像知识工作者和B2B。那是故意的吗？像一些具体赌注和一个只是像宽泛市场机会。当你有像一个产品，那更简单有个增长团队，那更像纯粹在漏斗上，对吧？它像你有转化，你有激活，你有变现。但当你开始进入有多个产品，我觉得那更难，因为如果你那样做然后，你知道，如果你只有像一个激活团队，比如，但然后你有 Claude Code，你有 Co-work，你有所有其他东西，他们是非常不同的观众，和和他们是非常不同的跨职能利益相关者集合内部。所以，我们有点在看什么那是东西，而且所有的结构不像完美，他们像对一个时刻是对的，但我们在看对允许我们有尽可能多的专注的结构，像专注真的是一件大事，而且在观众和和呃和问题上，而且，呃，而且与跨职能伙伴的关系真的真的很重要，像在我们 Claude Code 增长团队的家伙，像他们与 Kat 和 Boris 和其他人在那个团队上极其紧密地工作，所以那个关系真的很重要。

[34:41] Amole

but but but really it's an it's an effort to to to look at how can we use claude to automate growth experimentation and it is still very very small. It's still very very early. Uh we we we kicked it off only I think a couple of months ago. I think before Opus 4.5 it wasn't really possible. We were just like not not seeing the results. And more recently with Opus 4.6 we're like okay this this is like headed in the right direction. And so this I think is it will happen more and more across the the the industry where basically if you think about okay I think this can happen all across product but grow growth teams in particular because there's this whole body of work that is very small optimizations I think are just more inherently uh suited to to like tackle this earlier. Uh I think if you think about like the the life cycle of shipping there's there's sort of four parts to it. one is is um identifying opportunities like how good is Claude at actually identifying opportunities based on different trends based on um previous trends that that Claude has seen in the past. Second is then building the actual feature and and getting it ready to ship. Um third is is testing and ensuring that it meets your your your quality bar and your brand bar. And then fourth is then once you've actually shipped the thing analyzing the data ga gathering the learnings. If you think about that as like a the the the loop of okay these are four things that you can eval and hill climber in each of these areas and understand how good is a model doing for you there and we we we we basically think about it in that like the four four four ways and um and and we are scoring how good is Claude doing in each of those areas and so we've been testing this at pretty small scale right now it's been a lot of copy changes and some like very minor UI tweaks it's it's It's it's it's delivering results, right? Like and it's like you can push it, press play with it, and it's like it it ultimately prints money where I'd say that the win rate is like I would expect a senior PM to do better. Like I I would say like this is like a junior PM like 2 three years in. I would say this is like the the win rate that I would expect from from like a junior PM. Um but it's not quite at the senior PM level. Although I think like you look at the exponential, this wasn't available at all a couple of months ago. So it's it's it's getting better, you know, rapidly and um I I think that the the it's going to change where you you'll be able to do this for larger and larger types of experiments. Um but but then you know you think about the largest types of experiments. I think that the the I mentioned the the four pieces around sort of identifying opportunities building testing and shipping. The one I didn't mention there Lenny is crossunctional stakeholder management. There's still a need for human brains.

所以你在很多不同的公司做过增长，很多基本上让我们称之为传统增长在 Anthropic 之前。增长作为一个功能和技能集怎样随着 AI、AI 产品、AI 初创公司的兴起改变？我觉得如果你的核心产品价值非常由 AI 支持，那么它确实在改变，你在更大的赌注上倾斜相对于更小的中等实验。我觉得在呃其他东西也许一个大大东西相关的这个，我觉得会加速，我真的很有兴趣看它怎样会进行，是我们开始寻找怎样自动化增长，我觉得这像是一个真的有趣的区域。所以我们的增长平台团队，呃我们真的幸运我们有像 Alexe Kamisuroka 在 Reforge 教增长工程，他只像这个团队的那个人，而且，所以他驱动这个努力呃它是，这个名字是它有点令人厌烦。我没有想出来，但它像，它被称为 CASH，这是 Claude 加速可持续超增长。我没有想出来的。呃

[37:29] Amole

Yes, there is.

但但真的它是一个努力看我们怎样能用 Claude 自动化增长实验，而且它仍然非常非常小。它仍然非常非常早期。呃我们只是呃踢它关闭，我觉得只有也许几个月前。我觉得在 Opus 3.5 之前，它不真的可能。我们只是像不看看结果。而且更最近与 Opus 3.5，我们像，好吧，这个，这像是朝对方向去。而且所以这个我觉得会更多，更多发生跨越行业，基本上你能想象好吧，我觉得这能发生所有跨越产品，但增长团队特别地因为有这整个工作的身体，这是非常小的优化，我觉得本质上是更适合更早解决这个的。呃我觉得如果你想象像有很多种运送的生命周期有分类的四部分。一个是呃识别机会，像 Claude 怎样好在实际上基于不同趋势识别机会基于呃以前的趋势 Claude 在过去看过。第二个是然后建造实际的功能和让它准备好运送。呃第三个是测试和确保这符合你的你的质量酒吧和你的品牌酒吧。而且然后第四个是然后一旦你实际上运送分析数据的东西，聚集学习。如果你想象那像一个像好吧这些是四件东西，你能评估和丘陵爬山者在每个那些区域，而且理解 Claude 对你有多好，那儿，而且我们我们我们基本上想象它在那像四四四种方式，而且我们正在评分 Claude 怎样在每个那些区域做好，而且所以我们一直在测试这在非常小的规模，那儿，它被很多复制改变和一些像非常次要的 UI 调整，它是，它是，它是交付结果，对吧？像，而且它像你能推它，按播放，而且它像它最终打印金钱，那儿我想说像赢率，我会像期望一个资深 PM 做得更好。像我我会说像这个像一个初级 PM 像 2 三年英寸。我会说这个像赢率，我会期望从像一个初级 PM。呃但它不完全在资深 PM 级。虽然我觉得像你看指数，这不可用，全部，几个月前。所以它是，它是变得更好，你知道，快速，而且呃呃我觉得那那它会改变，那你你能做这个越来越大的类型的实验。呃但但然后你知道你想象最大的类型的实验。我觉得那那，我提到的四件关于像识别机会，构建，测试，和运送。那个我没有提到那儿，Lenny 是跨职能利益相关者管理。那儿仍然是人类头脑的需要。

[37:31] Amole

And and like I think that that that one is is going to mean that like in my eyes the work of PMs is like not going away actually anytime soon. And um that that piece especially for larger projects you don't need to do as much of it for smaller stuff, right? You can you can you can skip it. But for larger stuff uh that that piece is is not not not going away

我认为这意味着，从我的角度看，PM 的工作其实不会很快消失。对大型项目来说，这个部分的工作量相对较大。但对于较小的项目，你可以跳过这个步骤。但对于大项目，这个环节确实不会消失

[37:51] Amole

until the the other stakeholders are their own little agents running around.

除非其他利益相关者各自都变成了独立运转的 agent

[37:54] Lenny

I think that's right. I think that would be the point where changes. It's funny. We had a we had like a difficult meeting a couple of weeks ago and me and my our head of design, Joel, we were debriefing afterwards and he pings me. He's just like, "Amal, we will have AGI and it will still be impossible to get six people in a room to to get to a line." And uh I'm like, "Yeah, I think that's I can see that." That's a like what's the harder alignment problem? Oh, okay. This is so interesting and this is exactly where I feel like things are going. So just to be clear what you shared here, there's basically this tool that comes up with experiments to run to help grow Claude and all the tools. So it comes up with idea, somebody looks at them, proves cool, let's do these things, builds it, ships it, tests the results, see how it's doing, and then comes back like here's things that are working. Is that roughly right?

我认为你说得对。我觉得那将是一个转折点。有意思的是，几周前我们有一次很困难的会议，会后我和我们的设计负责人 Joel 一起复盘，他给我发消息说："Amole，我们就算有了 AGI，但要让六个人在同一个房间里达成共识仍然会是不可能的。"我说："对，我看得出来。"所以什么是更难的对齐问题呢？好吧，这真的很有趣，这正是我认为事情会发展的方向。所以为了澄清一下你分享的内容，基本上有一个工具来提出实验帮助增长 Claude 以及其他所有工具。所以它提出想法，有人审核，说好主意，我们做这些，构建它，发布它，测试结果，看看效果如何，然后反馈哪些是有效的。大概是这样吗？

[38:48] Amole

It's roughly right. Right. And like we right now we have human in the loop approving but like the amount of time I kind of think about scale in this way of just like week on week are things getting better in each of the areas. Are people spending less time on each of the areas? Are are the results getting better in each of the areas? And as long as like week on week that's getting better then you're like okay this whole initiative is like scaling. Um and and so that that's roughly right but you can think about it as

大概是这样。对的。现在我们有人工审核，但我考虑规模化的方式是，从周到周，每个领域的情况是否在改进？人们在每个领域花费的时间是否在减少？每个领域的结果是否在改进？只要周与周相比在改进，你就会想，好吧，这个整体计划正在扩展。基本上可以这样看待它

[39:13] Amole

I think a lot of this can be automated where human review is not needed. said we care a lot about brand, right? So

我认为这里很多东西可以自动化，不需要人工审核。我们非常关心品牌，对吧？所以

[39:19] Amole

that is something that we we do look at right now. We don't want to be shipping something that goes against the brand.

这是我们现在确实在关注的东西。我们不想发布违背品牌定位的内容

[39:24] Amole

Um but then

但你知道

[39:26] Amole

you know you can have a skill that a skill that that contains your your your brand guidelines and and very clear yet dos and don'ts on on brand and and and so all of these types of like accompaniment I think are going to get better. The model is going to get better at understanding how to use them. And so over time I I think that the need to like human review this really really decreases significantly.

你可以有一个 skill，其中包含你的品牌指南，以及关于品牌的明确的要做和不要做的清单。所有这些类型的配置我认为都会改进。模型会更好地理解如何使用它们。随着时间推移，我认为人工审核的必要性会大幅降低

[39:49] Lenny

Yeah. And you could always unhip it if it's like okay that was actually not a great idea. And that's such a good point that we like we think we need people to do these things forever and it turns out okay a skill could do this really well. Here's our brand guidelines. Here's our vision. Here's our mission. Here's our goals. Here's what matters to us. Okay let's not ship that thing. So the reason I think this is so interesting, this is like I've just been watching the expansion of AI doing more of the product development process. In this case, the growth process of just okay, it went from helping you write code to like writing all your code to reviewing your code. Now it it feels like what are the other ends of this the two ends around this? It's kind of going from the middle out. The the top of that is coming up with what to do and then there's like the alignment stuff still very hard and then on the other end it's uh reviewing the code and then shipping it. uh and then get distribution is that's like a whole other thing I want to talk to you about. So, what I'm hearing here, and this is exactly what I thought was going to start happening, is AI is now getting really good at telling us what to do. Not just taking our orders and building it. And it feels like the growth version of this is where it starts because it's so much simpler. Just like not that growth is easy, but just like it's data driven. There's this loop that you talk about. So, I think this is such an interesting sign of things to come across just generally product.

没错。你总可以取消发布。如果看起来不是个好主意。这是个很好的观点——我们认为我们需要人永远做这些事，但事实上，一个 skill 可以做得很好。这是我们的品牌指南。这是我们的愿景。这是我们的使命。这是我们的目标。这是对我们重要的东西。好吧，让我们不发布那个东西。所以我认为这很有趣的原因是，我一直在看 AI 在产品开发过程中扮演越来越多的角色。在这个例子中，就是增长这个过程——从能帮你写代码，到写所有代码，再到审核代码。现在似乎有两个端点——顶部是提出做什么的想法，然后是对齐的部分（仍然很难），另一个端点是审核代码然后发布。呃，然后分发是另一个我想和你讨论的话题。所以，我听到的是，AI 现在在告诉我们该做什么方面变得真的很擅长。不仅仅是执行我们的指令并构建。感觉增长是最先启动这个的原因，因为它相对简单一些。不是说增长容易，而是说它是数据驱动的。有一个反馈循环，你提到过。所以，我认为这是个有趣的信号，说明未来整个产品开发的走向

[41:04] Amole

Yeah, just putting that out there.

对，我只是把它说出来

[41:07] Lenny

Okay. So something that I'm constantly thinking about along these lines is just the future of product PM engineering, how those roles shift over time based on the stuff we're talking about. How how are you working together as a as a triad? And where do you see these roles going? What's most going to change, do you think, across these three roles? This is like something that we talk about and think about frequently and the the the picture changes rapidly. So sometimes when when things break you know execution like the bottlenecks break historically in the past it's like okay now you need to hire more engineers you need to hire more designers etc and it's more just like a a life cycle thing of like where is the life cycle of your team and that specific pod to identify where the bottleneck is but now when when things break you need to still look at it of like okay is it like the actual ratio or is there also underlying technological shifts that are that are also causing this to break and so that's like a an interesting thing I think that smaller companies like if I'm at like a 15 or 20 person company I'm like the only PM there working with some designers and engineers I I I think um I think in the smaller companies you'll see probably like the biggest blend where like the PM will be doing all sorts of they'll be you know designing shipping etc and I think you just have extreme bifocation you know larger organizations more scaled organizations I think the jury is still very much out like you you speak to people even internally here and different people in different teams have different views of like okay how much are these roles coming together versus how much are these roles going going to be separate I I think that um it's not to say like I think even the PMs like a number of PMs are shipping and and and themselves shipping and and and pushing PRs etc but I I if I if I look at okay across what I'm seeing I think that it's it's clear that while PMs and designers are getting more leverage from AI engineering is getting the most leverage Right now I I look at tools like claude code and like they the the amount of leverage engineers are getting from them is higher than I think the amount of engine the leverage that designers and PMs are getting from them today. Now that this like rapidly also changing but that that to me is like my view today and so um if you think about okay a default team which is say five engineers one designer one PM with cord code that that that five engineers is like two to 3xed right and and the PMs and designers have also increased but the that now they're managing what is effectively a much larger group of of engineers and so even though like the headcount the org structure hasn't changed. You're now you're now just dealing with a situation of maybe 15 to 20 engineers in the old world, one and a half to two PMs and like maybe one and a half to to two designers. And so we're seeing that that's putting like a lot of strain on on PM and and design. And it's it's not everywhere. Like I look at teams like Claude Code and I think that or because that product is so technical like it's probably like just the the right thing where you the the PMs are like all basically engineers themselves anyway. Um but but you know we had a product like a PM lead on site the other week and we were all just like talking about this where across the board we're feeling this where PM and design is just squeezed. It's just absolutely squeezed and we're like is it is the right thing here? we just need to actually hire like a ton more more PMs and and that that could it could actually be where we we we we land you know on growth how I think about it is like one we are hiring a number of growth PMs uh we we desperately need people who are very very good and uh we are we are hiring so if you if you are excited by what we're doing and and you know growth please please feel free to apply uh would love to love to chat and um maybe craft a maybe craft an amazing cold email to you.

好的。所以一直在思考的一件事是产品、PM、工程的未来，以及这些角色如何随时间演变。你们作为产品、设计、工程的三角形是怎么协作的？你在这些角色的发展中看到了什么？你认为这三个角色中最会改变的是什么？这是我们经常讨论和思考的东西，格局变化很快。有时当事情打破时——你知道，执行的瓶颈——历史上的做法是好的，现在需要招更多工程师，需要招更多设计师，等等。这更多是关于生命周期的事情——你的团队生命周期在哪里，那个特定的 pod 的瓶颈在哪里。但现在当事情打破时，你仍然需要看——好吧，是实际的比例问题，还是也有潜在的技术变化导致了这个破裂。所以那是个有趣的东西。我认为在较小的公司——比如说你在一个 15 或 20 人的公司，你是唯一的 PM，和一些设计师、工程师一起工作——在那些小公司，你可能会看到最大的融合，PM 会做各种各样的事情，会设计、会发布等等。我认为你会看到极端的双聚焦。在更大的组织，陪审团仍然非常有争议。你和人们谈谈，甚至在内部，不同团队的不同人有不同的看法——这些角色是怎样融合的，对比这些角色怎样分离。我认为，嗯，不是说 PM——有些 PM 正在发货、推送 PR 等等。但如果我看遍各地，我认为清楚的是，虽然 PM 和设计师从 AI 获得了更多杠杆，但工程现在获得了最多杠杆。我看工具比如 Claude Code，工程师从它们获得的杠杆量比我认为的设计师和 PM 今天从它们获得的要高。现在这也在快速变化，但那是我今天的看法。所以呃，如果你想象一个默认团队——比如说五个工程师、一个设计师、一个 PM，加上 Claude Code——那五个工程师就像翻了两三倍，对吧。PM 和设计师也增加了，但现在他们管理的实际上是一个更大的工程师组。所以虽然组织结构的人数没有变，但你现在处理的情况可能是旧世界里 15 到 20 个工程师、一个半到两个 PM、也许一个半到两个设计师的规模。所以我们看到这给 PM 和设计带来了很大压力。不是到处都这样。我看到像 Claude Code 这样的团队——因为那个产品非常技术性——可能就是对的，那里 PM 基本上本身就是工程师。但呃，你知道，我们最近有一个产品 PM 来现场，我们都在谈这个问题，各地都感到 PM 和设计在被严重挤压。完全被挤压了。我们就像，这是对的吗？我们真的需要招更多更多的 PM。那可能就是我们会落脚的地方。你知道，在增长上，我怎么想这个问题——一是我们正在招许多增长 PM。呃我们迫切需要非常非常优秀的人。我们正在招。所以如果你对我们在做的东西感到兴奋，如果你了解增长，请随时申请。很想和你聊天，也许给你写一封很棒的冷邮件

[45:00] Lenny

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Feel feel free to cl craft that email. Um so so that's one is I think we are going to be hiring a number of PMs. But then the second thing that we do is we we we very much hire productminded engineers. I think this has always been the best thing to do in growth. Like you always want to have the the engineers coming up with ideas etc. And so we especially especially people who who can really like step in as mini PMs if if people uh if the PM is is absent. And so we're like basically more formally leveraging that right now because we are so stretched. So the the frame that we have is that if a project is less than is 2 weeks of engineering time or less then the the uh engineer is on the hook to effectively be the PM for that. And so that means things like talking to security, talking to legal, talking to cross functional stakeholders, and the engineer is very much driving that. The PM will get looped in and and they'll advise if needed, and if something is like like wildly going off track, then they'll step in, but they're much more in an advisory capacity versus execution. If a project is more than two engineering weeks, then the default is that the PM should continue to to be on the hook for for making that go well. unless they still delegate more to ENGE, but they're like squarely accountable. It's not like fully cleancut. It's like use your head like if this is a oneweek thing, but it's extremely controversial like the PM should probably still drive it, but that that I think is like the the approach that I expect more companies will start to do, which is just deputize the engineers to be mini PMs. Now, not everyone can do it, right? So the the PMs the the the engineers who are more product minded suddenly their value goes up significantly like like an order of magnitude and and then I think we will probably still be hiring a a lot of PMs. There is so much interesting stuff I want to follow up on here. Okay. So one is this idea of two weeks just briefly. I I always joke as a PM uh you can go on vacation and be away for like a couple weeks from your team and things are going to be all right. like they'll, you know, there's like a momentum, there's a plan, people keep operating and it feels like that's kind of the this rule of thumb you use of just like, okay, if it's two week project, you'll be all right without a PM, you can handle it. Uh, I love that those two connect. Okay, the other here is so interesting. So, you're saying here that because engineers are so accelerated and this all makes sense. PMs in design are kind of just like, holy, there's like hard to keep up with the pace of engineering. And what you're saying is you need more and more PMs to keep up. That's one route or it's engineers that can PM essentially which is so funny. It's just like okay great news for product managers uh until more of the PME stuff can be done by AI but that's a really interesting trend. I don't know is there anything else there just like oh wow we actually may need more PMs the ratio more PMs to your engineers might be the future. Yeah, I I think this is like it it just like really depends on the industry, the the size of company, like any company where you're building something that's like much more developer focused, like you're going to rely on the engineers a lot more. Earlier companies, you don't have as much of this like crossunctional coordination, stakeholder alignment nonsense that you need all these PMs for. So you you you can like get by with less. But then as a company scales and like if I think about okay now you have this ratio where maybe the the one PM became two PMs from like productivity that the like five engineers became like 20 engineers the one designer maybe became like three designers. If you think about like what is the best use of time for that PM I think this is like a really interesting thing of like how much should PMs be actually shipping things themselves versus everything else. I think like in the in in the world where you're like limited on engineering, the PM should definitely be shipping things. I think in in today's world um it's a good way to like get an understanding of the tools which is really important. So the PM should be shipping for that reason. But if I'm if I'm one 1 p.m. or 2 PMs and there's 20 engineers. I think about what is the incremental value I can add with with my time and is it actually shipping like the 21st PM feature or is it saying how am I getting a little bit better at guiding the team on what the right opportunities are and and and so that's where I think like in this world you may have all these engineers who are like mini PMs and the better that happens like that's like where I would love to be doing more of but still like the if if you then get a really good PM who can come in and can like improve that the the like why and the what and and the why and the what particularly by like 5%. That is like such a high leverage. This is such an interesting insight you're making. It's like so counter to how a lot of people are thinking PM is evolving. Like what I'm hearing here is because PMs are so behind because engineers are just getting so much done. There's like many people here, okay, you need to be prototyping, you need to be shipping PRs as a PM. what you're saying which I completely agree with is your time is much better spent helping PM basically and helping the engineers uh become better PMs themselves and and the leverage there is a lot higher than you spending time coding shipping PRs in most cases I think that's true in certain circumstances I think that as a smaller company I don't know that that's the case in a smaller company where it's all hands- on deck I I think you you you probably need to be shipping I think if you're in a company where like budgets are very tight and engineers are very tight and you you know you're not able to just hire because money is unlimited then like you need to do what the what is needed to to accelerate the the like the the impact your team's going to have right so there's going to be a number of cases where like as a PM the right thing to do is to be like screw it I am shipping and like I am I am going it the whole way but I'm talking here more about the like larger companies more scaled businesses yeah if you have 20 p 20 engineers is is is is it the highest use leverage of your time to ship an extra feature or figure out how do I uplevel everything that we're doing get the user insights better etc. Yeah, and I think there's also an element of shipping to learn, building a prototype so that you can have a better opinion like a lot of people talk about just going to try three things, see how it goes and that'll help inform the road map. This is now the PRD is look at it instead of talking about it. So there's a lot of value there still. That's that's that's very true. I think that's a great that's a great point. So like even for me now where we've got number of PMs, we've got many engineers, there are certain times I'm like I want to articulate the idea I have in my head, it's just better for me to prototype it and show it, right? So I think that that is really important. Um and then you know we we are very scrappy. So like we're like a big big company by by name valuation, but we're like extremely scrappy and just the the focus internally is just like minimize bureaucracy and just like just go. And so probably 70 70% maybe 60 70 80% of what we what we ship does not have a P. I'm like averse to PDs. I think I just like I just like hate documentation. I'm just like go just like cut cut the blockers. um 20 30% of stuff where it's like it's important it's really important to get right like the documentation should be really good and like that people sp should spend a lot of time on it but by and large I think PS are just out outdated at this point and and um you can just kick things off with a good team without without needing to to do that sort of thing.

是的是的是的。随便给我写那封邮件。呃所以那是其一，我认为我们会招许多 PM。但第二件事我们在做的是我们非常重视招聘有产品思维的工程师。我认为这一直是增长中最好的做法。你总想要工程师提想法之类的。所以我们特别地——那些真正可以跳进来、当 PM 缺席时当个小 PM 的人。所以我们现在更正式地利用这个。所以我们用的框架是：如果一个项目少于或等于两周工程时间，那么呃工程师就像在钩子上有效地成为那个项目的 PM。这意味着和安全部门讨论，和法律部门讨论，和跨职能的利益相关者讨论，工程师非常much主导这个。PM 会被拉进来，如果需要的话会建议。如果某些东西严重偏离轨道，他们会介入。但他们非常much处于顾问角色，而不是执行角色。如果一个项目超过两个工程周，那么默认是 PM 应该继续负责让它顺利进行。除非他们仍然委任更多给工程师，但他们明确负责。这不是完全干净的界线。它的感觉是用你的判断——如果这是一个单周的东西，但非常有争议，PM 可能仍然应该主导它。但那就是我认为更多公司会开始做的方法——委任工程师当小 PM。现在，不是每个人都能做到，对吧。所以那些更有产品思维的工程师，他们的价值突然上升显著，一个数量级。然后我认为我们可能仍然会招很多 PM。有很多有趣的东西我想跟进这里。好的。一个是这个两周的想法。我作为 PM 经常开玩笑，你可以去度假离开你的团队两三周，事情会好的。他们知道，有动力，有计划，人们继续运作。感觉这有点像你用的这条经验法则，就是，好吧，如果是两周的项目，你不需要 PM 也能搞定。呃，我喜欢这两个怎样连接的。好的，这里还有一个很有趣的地方。所以，你在说因为工程师被这么加速了，这一切都有意义。PM 和设计就像，哇，真的很难跟上工程的步伐。而你说的是你需要越来越多的 PM 来跟上。这是一条路，或者工程师也能当 PM，这真的很有趣。它只是像，好吧，PM 的好消息呃直到更多 PME 的东西能由 AI 做，但这真是个有趣的趋势。我不知道还有没有别的像哦，哇，我们实际上可能需要更多 PM——比例可能是更多 PM 对工程师可能是未来。是的，我认为这真的取决于行业、公司大小，像任何地方你在构建东西如果更多是开发者导向的，你会更依赖工程师。早期公司，你没有这么多的跨职能协调、利益相关者对齐的废话，你需要这些 PM。所以你能少一点。但当公司扩展时，像如果我想象现在你有这个比例，可能一个 PM 变成两个 PM，从生产力的角度，五个工程师变成 20 个，一个设计师变成三个。如果你想象对那个 PM 最好的时间用法是什么——我认为这是个真的有趣的东西——PM 应该多少自己在做东西对比其他一切。我认为在一个你的工程有限的世界里，PM 应该肯定在做东西。我认为在今天的世界，这是一个理解工具的好方式，这真的很重要。所以 PM 应该因为那个原因在做东西。但如果我是一个或两个 PM，有 20 个工程师。我想的是我能加的增量价值是什么，以及我的时间用来做第 21 个 PM 功能还是说我怎样能更好地指导团队找到正确的机会。所以那就是我认为在这个世界里，你可能有所有这些像小 PM 一样的工程师，越好地发生，那就是我想做更多的地方。但仍然，如果你能找到一个真的好的 PM，能来进来，能改进那个为什么和什么，特别是改进个 5% 的水平。那就是超高杠杆。这是个真的有趣的见解你在做。它真的反对很多人认为 PM 在进化的方式。我听到的是，因为 PM 这么落后，因为工程师在做这么多。很多人说，好吧，你需要做原型，你需要作为 PM 推送 PR。而你说的——我完全同意——是你的时间更好地花在帮助 PM 上，帮助工程师本身变成更好的 PM。杠杆在那里更高，比你花时间写代码、推送 PR 在大多数情况下高得多。我认为那在某些情况下是对的。我认为作为一个小公司，我不知道那在一个小公司是不是对的，在那里是全员上阵。我认为你可能需要在做东西。我认为如果你在一个公司，其中预算非常紧，工程师非常紧，你又不能随便招因为钱是无限的，那你需要做必要的东西来加速你的团队的影响。所以会有一些情况，作为 PM 正确的事情是像，随便，我在做，我全力做。但我在这里讲的更多是大公司、更成熟的业务。是的，如果你有 20 个工程师，是花你的时间来做额外功能还是想象怎样提升我们在做的一切、获得更好的用户见解等等。是的，我认为还有做东西来学习的元素，构建原型这样你能有更好的看法。很多人谈做三个东西，看看怎样，这会帮信息路线图。现在 PRD 就是看而不是谈。所以仍有很多价值。那那那都对。我认为那是个很好的点。所以甚至对于我现在——我们有 PM，我们有很多工程师——有时候我像，我想表达我脑子里的想法，对我来说做原型然后展示就好了。所以我认为那真的很重要。嗯，然后你知道，我们非常快速敏捷。我们在名义上是个很大的公司，按估值，但我们运作得极其敏捷，内部专注就是最小化官僚，就是行动。所以可能百分之 70、也许百分之 60 到 80 我们发布的东西没有 PRD。我很反感 PRD。我就是讨厌文档。我就是行动，就是砍掉阻挡。嗯百分之 20 到 30 的东西像很重要、真的很重要要做对的，文档应该很好，人们应该花很多时间。但总体上我认为 PRD 现在就是过时了，你可以用一个好团队启动东西，不需要做那种东西

[52:34] Lenny

Say more about that. What do you do to help make sure because people can build so fast or spend a lot of time going in the wrong direction ship things that are not what you're asking. How do you kick off a project and clarify here's what we're doing? Is it just a conversation or is there anything beyond that?

多说一点。你做什么来帮助确保——因为人们可以非常快地构建或花很多时间走错方向，发布不是你要求的东西。你怎么启动一个项目，澄清这就是我们在做什么？是只是一个对话还是有别的？

[52:48] Amole

It really depends on the size of it. And this kind of goes back to like the two week thing. So the why we have that two week thing, it's more like a how do I have some filter to say if we're investing heavily into something we should apply more thinking behind it versus if it's a smaller set of investments, just go for it. And as a growth team, again, you do have a decent amount of these smaller things that you do. So for for very small changes, you're like, "Oh, there's a thing coming. We need to have an upsell for it. What is it the thing we're doing?" Like this is just on Slack, right? This is just purely on Slack. It's just a a messages back and forth and we'll I think it also depends on having a good caliber of engineer in there, but engineers can can understand like, "Hey, I know you said this, but like what about that for the audience?" And so like we're lucky we have good good product minded engineers in that sense. But all these smaller things are very much just on on on Slack back and forth and and and that's what you you do for the larger things. I think I I very firmly believe in like a proper kickoff. So we we still do you just there's so much going on at this place. No one's got time. No one knows what's going on. And so doing a cross functional kickoff get legal, get safeguards, get everyone in the room and just be like this is what we plan to do. what what do you care about? What do you care about? What do you care about? Like that that 30 minute meeting um for larger things is just I think still so important to to just streamline all the mess that may happen later if you don't do that work early on.

这真的取决于它的大小。这又回到两周的事情。所以为什么我们有两周的界线，它更像是怎样我有某种过滤器来说，如果我们重投入某东西，我们应该在它后面投入更多思考，对比如果它是较小的一堆投入，就去做吧。作为增长团队，再次，你确实有相当数量的这些较小的东西。所以对于非常小的改动，你像，哦，有东西来了。我们需要为它做向上销售。这是什么东西我们在做？就像这只是在 Slack 上，对吧？完全是 Slack。它只是来回的消息，我们会——我认为这也取决于有好的工程师口径在那里，但工程师可以理解像，嘿，我知道你说了这个，但对于观众呢？所以就像我们幸运地有很好的有产品思维的工程师。但所有这些较小的东西都完全就是在 Slack 上来回，那就是你对较大的东西做的。我真的坚定地相信一个正式的启动。所以我们仍然做——你只是这地方有这么多在进行。没人有时间。没人知道发生了什么。所以做跨职能启动，把法律、把保障拉进来，把所有人在房间里，就像这是我们计划做的。你关心什么？你关心什么？你关心什么？那个 30 分钟会议，对于大的东西，我认为仍然非常重要，就是理顺所有混乱，这些混乱可能在后来发生如果你不早期做这个工作

[54:17] Lenny

What's your approach to crafting that PRD in those cases? Is it like ramble into cloud? Is it do you have a template?

你做 PRD 的方法是什么？是像对 Claude 说吗？你有模板吗？

[54:24] Amole

Even in those cases, there are times I don't craft a PD like cuz we're just everything's moving so quickly, right? So there's still some of those cases where I just set up the meeting and then like 5 minutes before I'll put it into quote work like here you know some of my thoughts what credit like here are the things that I need to think about spin up like a a basic doc and and we use it to talk other times I won't even have a doc but if if I am creating a prd um I have basically skill like a skill that that I I've you've created um and then there's projects with all the previous PRDs in there uh and then I will each is pretty simple like I'll it has the format down so I'll just say here are the things I care about here's the why here's the problem and flesh out the key considerations flesh out the cross functional stakeholders those types of things but again my my my default is like if I can avoid the dock and if we can just just jump to action then then that's what we should do and increasingly just just jump to prototyping the thing

即使在那些情况下，有时我也不做 PRD，因为我们一切都在非常快地动。对的。所以仍然有一些那样的情况，我只是建立会议，然后像五分钟前我会把想法放进，像这里是一些我的想法，这里是我需要考虑的事情，启动像一个基础文档，我们用它来讨论。其他时候我甚至没有文档。但如果我在做 PRD，呃我基本上有一个 skill——一个我创建的 skill——然后有个项目，有所有之前的 PRD。然后我会，每个相当简单，我有格式了，所以我只是说这是我关心的东西，这是为什么，这是问题，充实关键考虑事项，充实跨职能利益相关者，那些类型的东西。但再次，我的默认是如果我能避免文档，如果我们能只是跳到行动，那就是我们应该做的。越来越多地只是跳到给东西做原型

[55:24] Lenny

yeah and that's that's where I think it'll get so interesting once we can automate more of that just like your uh assistant talking to the legal assistant just like ironing out all these little you know what's important to you what's important to the yes and it's coming and I think the legal team has done like good enablement around this like we work you know versions of like how do you you can think about like how can you um mimic what someone might say and like set up you know like a co-op right so there's there's things like that that I think that we have now and then as plot gets more and more context and gets better at passing long context I think These are things that quaude will just get better at knowing. One of the one of the things Lenny is like a slight tangent but one of the I think most effective ways I use quad or most interesting ways I use quad is this I see a number of people doing internally is to like help you identify misalignment. Um this is like a I think something that's I found really really helpful. So with with coowork you have this the Slack MCP and you and you can you can tell coowork you can tell co-work to say basically look across Slack you know the projects that I'm working on these are the things that are top of mind go and find me areas of potential misalignment right now and it does a really really good job so this is something that I've scheduled runs every week's like looking at things and coming back to me with and saying like hey I think these things you should be aware of and so you can think about in that in that shipping context text. It's a similar thing where Cord can basically be looking at what's what's happening across the company and say, "You're thinking about shipping this thing. Here's who you need to talk to. Here's what what you need to keep in mind." That is so cool. I am so excited to tell you about this season's supporting sponsor, Vanta. Vanta helps over 15,000 companies like Cursor, Ramp, Duolingo, Snowflake, and Atlassian earn and prove trust with their customers. Teams are building and shipping products faster than ever thanks to AI. But as a result, the amount of risk being introduced into your product and your business is higher than it's ever been. Every security leader that I talk to is feeling the increasing weight of protecting their organization, their business, and not to mention their customer data. Because things are moving so fast, they are constantly reacting, having to guess at priorities, and having to make do with outdated solutions. Vanta automates compliance and risk management with over 35 security and privacy frameworks including SOCK 2, ISO 27,0001 and HIPPA. This helps companies get compliant fast and stay compliant. More than ever before, Trust has the power to make or break your business. Learn more at vanta.com/lenny. And as a listener of this podcast, you get $1,000 off Vanta. That's vanta.com/lenny. I feel like there's this like what are the jobs of a product manager and then how are they slowly going to be uh supported slashdone by AI. So there's this misalignment just like fine misalignment and then maybe one day it'll be like align people initially. You talked about this uh cache automation for growing like how do I grow this product that's starting to happen. Another that I I might use myself when I'm building stuff is just asking how do I make this product better? how do I make this a better user experience and asking the AI just give me a bunch of ideas and they're actually really good. Uh so it's interesting how these little pieces are starting to be put into place to do more and more of this role. I'm curious what other automations you have and your team have that are effective. What I love about these conversations is you're basically living in the future. you're working at like the most bleeding edge company with the most talented people with the most cutting edge tools and you can like see where things are going and start to actually live in the future build things uh that nobody else has even thought about or can do. I'm curious just what else is working, what else your team has done to help save you time, be more productive.

是的，那就是我认为一旦我们能自动化更多会变得真有趣的地方。就像你的 assistant 和法律 assistant 对话，只是解决所有这些小事，你知道什么对你重要，什么对他们重要。它在来，我认为法律团队在这上面做了很好的启用工作。我们就像有方法，像你怎样——你可以想象怎样模仿某人可能会说的东西，像建立某种对话，对吧。所以有那些东西我认为我们现在有。然后随着 Claude 获得越来越多上下文，越来越好地传递长上下文，我认为这些是 Claude 会变得更好地知道的东西。Lenny，其中一个是，轻微的切线，但我认为我使用 Claude 最有效的方式之一——或者最有趣的方式——是这个我看很多人在内部做的，就是帮你识别错位。呃，这是我认为真的真的有帮助的东西。所以用 Cowork，你有这个 Slack MCP，你可以告诉 Cowork，基本上说看 Slack，你知道，我在做这些项目，这些是对我最重要的东西，去给我找潜在的错位区域现在。它做得真的很好。所以这是我设置成每周运行的东西，像在看东西，回来告诉我，像嘿，我认为这些东西你应该意识到。所以你可以在运发货的背景下考虑。这是个类似的东西，Claude 基本上可以看所有在公司发生的东西，说，你正在考虑发货这个东西。这就是你需要和谁谈。这就是你需要记住的。这太棒了。我太兴奋了，无法告诉你这个赛季的赞助商 Vanta。Vanta 帮助超过 15,000 家公司像 Cursor、Ramp、Duolingo、Snowflake 和 Atlassian 赚取和证明对客户的信任。团队由于 AI 而在以比以往快得多的速度构建和发货产品。但结果是，你引入到产品和业务的风险量比以往更高。我谈到的每个安全领导都感到保护他们的组织、业务——更不用说客户数据——的增加的重量。因为事情动得这么快，他们不断反应，必须猜优先级，必须用过时的解决方案。Vanta 用超过 35 个安全和隐私框架（包括 SOC 2、ISO 27001 和 HIPAA）自动化合规和风险管理。这帮助公司快速合规并保持合规。比以往，信任有力量让或破坏你的业务。在 vanta.com/lenny 了解更多。作为这个播客听众，你得到 1000 美元的 Vanta 折扣。那就是 vanta.com/lenny。我感觉像有这个 PM 的工作是什么，然后它们怎样慢慢地被 AI 支持或完成。所以有这个识别错位，然后也许有一天会像让人对齐的初始部分。你谈到这个呃，自动化增长，像我怎样增长这个产品开始发生。另一个我可能自己用——当我构建东西时——就像问我怎样使这个产品更好？我怎样使这个用户体验更好？问 AI 只是给我一堆想法，他们真的很好。呃所以有趣的是这些小部分开始到位，做这个角色越来越多。我好奇你还有什么其他自动化，你的团队有效果。我喜欢这些对话的东西是你基本上活在未来。你工作在像最尖端的公司，有最有才华的人，有最尖端的工具，你可以看到事情的地方，开始真的活在未来，构建东西呃没人甚至想过或能做。我好奇还有什么别的有效，你的团队还做了什么来帮助节省时间、更高效

[59:17] Amole

We use it pretty extensively across the board, right? So there's the standard PM stuff like writing docs, brainstorming, looking at data. Um for data I personally have like a co-worker runs on a schedule and looks at sort of 20 25 different charts every morning and then so when I when I come in the morning there's just so many charts so many products to track. co-work will tell me, okay, here are the things that you should pay attention to. Here's like what is concerning and here are just some like interesting insights

我们整个地方都广泛用它，对吧？所以有像写文档、头脑风暴、看数据那样的标准 PM 东西。呃，对于数据，我个人有个 Cowork 任务在日程上运行，看某种 20、25 个不同的图表，每个早上。然后当我早上来时，就像有这么多图表要跟踪、这么多产品。Cowork 会告诉我，好的，这是你应该注意的东西。这是令人担忧的。这是一些有趣的见解

[59:45] Lenny

and it sends you the update in Slack or how does what's kind of the workflow?

它把更新发给你在 Slack 还是工作流是什么样的？

[59:48] Amole

I it for me it just shows it comes up in co-work. the co-work has a schedule

对我来说，它只是显示在 Cowork 中。Cowork 有一个日程

[59:52] Lenny

in the desktop app

在桌面应用上

[59:53] Amole

you yeah in the desktop app you can have a scheduled task that you create and so I have a bunch of hex links that it will go and and look at um it uses the the Chrome extension for for some things and it uses MCP for for other things and and and then it'll just give me a summary and then I I know like I still there's a few charts that I just like to look at because I just like I'm a numbers guy I just like charts like up to the right too so I'm just I like to see the chart. Uh uh but then there's a there's like a long tale of things and even the medium tail where it's like you don't have time to look at it every day that if Claude is is proactively looking at it and you start to feel good over time of okay it's like the the false positive rate is going down the like false negative rate is going down of the things that cord brings to you um then you you just get a little bit more confidence and peace of mind there. This touches on an idea I've always had that teams will have is a strategy bot which just imagine an agent that's just constantly watching metrics the market the road map what's working not and just like hey here's what I think we should do now here's the pivot we should take here's where we're going to win like it feels like we're very close to that I think we're close I think we'll get there later this year um to to like the point where that's very very effective that's my my my gut I that that level of like proactivity and getting looking across a bunch of context and and distilling insights I think is it's it's it's like you know the the thing I mentioned earlier Lenny about the alignment piece like that's like a version of it right now you're just looking at across more more data sources um this is something that I use so I talked about like this some of the standard PM stuff you know brainstorming data UXR there's a lot of like admin stuff I just hate like life admin and like paperwork work. I just hate it. And so I get called to book my meeting rooms. I got to book meeting rooms. Claude archives sort of my my email first pass at clearing out my inbox. I I don't do any of my reimbursements and and expenses. Claude will go to Ben pass and like file the reimbursements. He'll go to Brex and file the expenses. So all of that side of things I'm just like just hand it hand it to co-work just get get rid of it. And then the the stuff that's quite interesting I think is like the the man the manager lens where where I talked about alignment is one thing. So I I look also across my direct reports like Cord can look into what what have they done this week. you look at sort of our team goals and OKRs. Look at the transcripts from our our discussions and understand can basically ask for like what are what are the key takeaways and observations I should keep in mind and like what feedback do you think I should give them. Um and that's something that is like again you can just set that up weekly. The quality is like hit or miss right now. It's like it's decent on some things. Sometimes you're like holy like I am so glad that I caught this and and um that's very very helpful. And then I do that for myself as well. So I basically um you know one of my manager Army Vora was I think a podcast guest of yours right. So I say hey based on what you know of army both publicly she's written extensively about product and then internally

对，对，在桌面应用上你可以有个计划任务你创建的。所以我有一堆的十六进制链接它会去看。呃它用 Chrome 扩展做一些事情，用 MCP 做其他事情。然后它只给我一个总结。然后我，我知道，像我仍然有些图表，我只是喜欢看因为我是个数字人，我就是喜欢图表向上的。所以我就是喜欢看图表。呃呃，但然后有个长尾的东西，甚至中等尾巴，像你没有时间每天看它，如果 Claude 是主动看它，你开始时间推移会感觉越来越好，像好的，错误警报率在下降，假阴性率在下降，Claude 给你的东西。呃然后你只是获得更多的信心和安心。这涉及我一直有的个想法，团队会有的，就是个策略 bot，想象个 agent，只是不断看指标、市场、路线图、什么有效什么没效，只是像这是我认为我们应该做的，这是我认为我们应该转向的支点，这是我们会赢的地方。感觉我们非常接近那个。我认为我们会在今年晚些时候到达呃那会非常有效的程度。那那是我的直觉。那那种主动性，看一堆背景，蒸馏见解，我认为它就像你知道我前面提到的，Lenny，关于识别错位的部分。那就像对的现在一个版本，你只是看更多更多数据源。呃这是我用的东西。所以我谈到像标准 PM 东西，你知道，头脑风暴、数据、UXR。有很多像管理的东西，我就是讨厌，像生活管理、文书工作。我就是讨厌。所以我被要求预订我的会议室。我得预订会议室。Claude 会存档某种我的电子邮件，先通过清理我的收件箱。我不做任何我的报销和费用。Claude 会去 Brex pass 然后提交报销。他会去 Brex 然后提交费用。所以所有这些的东西，我只是像，只是交给它，只是交给 Cowork，只是摆脱它。然后那东西相当有趣，我认为，像经理的镜头，其中我谈到的识别错位是一件事。所以我也看我的直接报告，像 Claude 可以看他们这周做了什么。你看我们的团队目标和 OKR。看我们讨论的记录，理解基本上可以要求像什么是我应该记住的关键要点和观察，我应该给他们什么反馈。呃，那是像再次你可以每周设置那个。质量像有点命中或错过，对，现在。有时候你就像哇，我真的很高兴我抓住了这个。呃那非常非常有帮助。然后我对自己也做那个。所以我基本上，呃，你知道，我的一个经理是 Army Vora，我认为是你的播客客人，对。所以我说嘿，基于你所知的 Army，都是公开的，她写了很多关于产品的，然后在内部

[1:03:07] Lenny

and then our discussions what what is every based on everything that I've done or not done this week. What feedback do you have for me as army? And like I get that every week, right? So like a lot of these things can already be done today. I think that the as as as um the models improve, I think it's just like the accuracy and the signal of these things is going to continue to improve rapidly. I don't think you realize just how much awesomeness you're sharing here. This is just like every one of these is like what? Okay. So Okay. So this Ammy example, so you you have one-on- ones with her. You're you ask is this so do you ask Claude co-work to go through all of her writing basically build like a model of her and you ask what should I be doing differently based on what you know about is that is that the

然后我们的讨论，基于这周我做过或没做过的一切。作为 Army 你对我有什么反馈？就像我每周都得到那个。对吧？所以像很多这些东西已经可以做了。我认为随着模型改进，我认为只是这些东西的准确性和信号会继续快速改进。我不认为你意识到你分享了多少很棒的东西。这只是每一个都像什么？好吧。所以好吧。所以这个 Army 例子，所以你和她有一对一。你问是这样的，所以你要求 Claude Cowork 去通过所有她的写作，基本上构建像她的模型，你问基于你所知我应该做什么不同？那是

[1:03:58] Amole

yeah effectively there's a number of ways you can do this I think with if someone has um a public profile where they've written extensively it's it's helpful because you could claude can just get all that information otherwise you can have a project or you can have a skill but increasingly claude is better at just understanding because you can tell Claude like look on on co-work you can say using the Slack MCP look at everything that this person has said in the last you know week etc and based on that like what are their top priorities what are priorities my manager has based on how they're spending their time that I don't know um and and so all of this this layer of stuff which is like the I think about it as like soft coaching um I think that that is like unlocked in my opinion already. I think it's just that you you're like working with a coach who's like kind of like drunk at times. Not drunk, but like you know like sometimes like says something you're like why like why would you bring that up? Like that's clearly wrong. But you other times you're like wow like that has there there's like one of um one of the the the guys Scott who leads our enterprise team. I think he there was a few cases like he found like major areas of misalignment that would have caused teams to sort of spin their wheels significantly or or or um do overlapping work. And you think about that the impact of that like your your shipping in this world is a bigger companies is going to be constrained at often by all the cross functional coordination right and I think we're now starting to see at this cross functional coordination layer some of that work AI is really being able to be used to to reduce that toil and and I think that 6 months ago that wasn't possible and I'm like like 6 months from now what what what is is going to be possible there.

对，有效地有很多方式你可以做这个。我认为如果某人有他们写过很广泛的公开资料，有帮助，因为你可以 Claude 能只是获得所有那个信息。否则你可以有个项目或你可以有个 skill。但越来越多 Claude 更好地理解，因为你可以告诉 Claude 像看 Cowork 上，你可以说用 Slack MCP 看所有这个人在过去，你知道，一周说的所有东西等等。基于那个，像他们的顶级优先级是什么，我的经理的优先级是什么基于他们怎样花时间，我不知道。和所以所有这个层的东西，我认为像软教练呃我认为那就像已经开锁了在我的看法。我认为它只是那你你像和有点醉的教练工作。不醉，但你知道有时像说什么东西你像为什么，像你为什么会提那个？那显然是错的。但其他时候你像哇，像那有——有个像呃其中一个的那个——那个叫 Scott 的家伙谁领导我们的企业团队。我认为他有像几个情况他发现像错位的主要区域会让团队像旋转他们的轮子显著或或呃做重叠工作。你想象那那个影响像你的运发货在这世界是个更大的公司通常会被限制像通过所有跨职能协调对，我认为我们现在开始看到在这个跨职能协调层的一些工作 AI 真的在能被用来减少那个劳动。我认为六个月前那不可能，我像像六个月从现在会发生什么

[1:05:45] Lenny

Oh man. And I think the fact that all this data is there, Slack, there's granola, whatever people use, like all these notes from conversations and and discussions are really key to this working.

哦伙计。我认为所有这个数据在那里，Slack，有 Granola，不管人们用什么，像所有这些来自对话和讨论的笔记对这个真的很关键

[1:05:55] Lenny

Yes. So for someone that wants to do something like this, what how do you set this up? What's kind of the steps?

对。所以对想做这个的人，怎样呃你怎样设置这个？什么是像步骤？

[1:06:01] Amole

Yeah, you go on to Coowwork, download the the desktop app on Co-work. Uh connect the Slack MCP. That's where you you need to um depending on how big the organization is, you you you may need to get sort of team or enterprise admin permissions to to um you know someone with those permissions to to enable that. But once you have the Slack MCP connected and on co you just ask Claude that's it. Amazing. Okay. I want to go in a kind of a different direction. I want to talk about the focus that Anthropic has had over the years. So if you look at the numbers um that that you're all putting up, what's really uh incredible about it is the focus that you all have had and I think this is the reason it has worked out so well. There's a certain competitor in the market that is realizing they should have done this and are starting to shift to a similar approach. As an external observer, it feels like anthropic has been very good at doing very few things but going super deep. So B2B for example, just going deep on B2B and then going really deep on coding use cases, cloud code being an example and it's worked out really well. Where who's been driving that focus? Who has helped keep that focus from the beginning? Yeah, I mean I think it's I think it's a foundational part of the the company. I think it's been there from the very very early days and it really comes from leadership and and I think they they've just done a phenomenal job of of distilling that. Uh I I think that you know I I saw this doc come up recently is I don't know where it was shared. It was something that Den man is one of our founders that he had on on the podcast had written it's dated in 2021 I think a few months after they started the company and it was like here's why we should just focus on AI coding and this is like you know this is like 5 years ago this is long before anyone knew what the actual market opportunities were around this and um I think this is just like a a deep focus that we have had internally from the start on the importance of of coding and and and B2B the um you know it's a it's a I think there's like two lenses to it right it's like the maybe a view of okay that this is going to be commercially beneficial to tackle and then also the the side of it around accelerating research so I'd say it's a pretty mainstream view now I've now heard people from various labs talking about the this the you know the the importance of of coding to accelerate research but that has just been like a very firm view that we have been laser focused on internally of okay if you have the best models that's going to accelerate your researchers and that's going to accelerate the research loop and I think that's something that like Daario has has seen very clearly for a number of years. So I would say that that that's probably one of a lot I think a lot comes from Dario. I think a lot comes from from leadership and and just our DNA. I think the second though is is probably just like necessity where if you're if you're um you know it's now changed like we're more well-known company raised lots of money blah blah blah but you know historically we were we were very much like the smallest least wellunded player in this space like in many ways it's a complete miracle that I think we've like gotten to the stage that we have like we we didn't have the free cash flow or the distribution of a meta or Google we didn't have the first mover advantage of an open AI and So like what do you do right? I think there's um I think there's like this broader principle I have just around life of of like the the freedom through constraints that when when you when you have a bunch of constraints applied on you whether that's in personal life or or or or at work I think that that that can just it can bring a lot of freedom because it just frees up all this excess choice. You're like okay like this is this is clearly the path. And I think for us it's like okay you're not you don't have a ton of funding. You're you're a small player. You don't have distribution. like you just have to to really pick a very narrow focus and even for a very generalizable technology to to maximize your chances of getting to escape velocity and um I think that that's also just related to like how history played out right so you know it was it was well before my time but anthropic had a version of claude we had a chatbot before chat GPT was was launched and we we had ultimately chosen not to launch it for safety reasons I think the team didn't want to kick off effectively like an AI global arms race and um you know Chachi PD launched and like they got like insane traction right and and that just naturally sort of pulled them towards consumer you know there's another world where if anthropic had launched pred first like maybe be the other way around even with all that focus stuff so it's who knows it's it's hard it's always hard to say looking back with some of these things

对，你去 Cowork，在 Cowork 上下载桌面应用。呃连接 Slack MCP。那就是你需要的。取决于组织多大，你你可能需要得到某种团队或企业管理员权限，呃，你知道，有那些权限的人来启用它。但一旦你有 Slack MCP 连接，在 Cowork 上你只是问 Claude，那就是它。太棒了。好的。我想往个有点不同的方向走。我想谈谈 Anthropic 这些年的焦点。所以如果你看数字呃那你们都在放，真的不可思议的是焦点，你们都有过的。我认为那就是它工作得这么好的原因。有个某个竞争对手在市场上意识到他们应该做过那个，现在开始转向类似的方法。作为外部观察者，感觉像 Anthropic 一直非常擅长做很少的东西但非常深。所以 B2B 例子，只是在 B2B 上深，然后真的在编码用例上深，Claude Code 是个例子，它有效得非常好。谁在推动那焦点？谁帮助保持从一开始的焦点？对，我的意思是我认为这就像是公司的基础部分。我认为它从很早就在那里，它真的来自领导。我认为他们他们只是做了个很棒的工作蒸馏那个。呃，我认为你知道，我看到这份文档最近浮现，我不知道它在哪里分享。这是 Darius Mann 是我们的创始人之一，他在播客上写的。它的日期是 2021 我认为，几个月在他们启动公司后。它像这就是为什么我们应该只专注于 AI 编码。这就像你知道，这就像五年前。这远早于任何人都知道了关于此的实际市场机会。我认为这只是像个深焦点，我们从内部开始一直就有的对编码和 B2B 的重要性。呃，你知道，它的两个镜头，对，像也许一个观点好的，这会商业上有利处理。然后也是侧重加速研究。所以我会说这就像一个相当主流的观点现在我已经听过从各个实验室的人说这个呃编码的重要性加速研究。但这一直像个非常坚定的观点，我们一直从内部激光专注于好的，如果你有最好的模型，那会加速你的研究人员，那会加速研究循环。我认为那就像 Dario 已经看到多年真的非常清楚的东西。所以我会说那那可能是很多一个很多来自 Dario。我认为很多来自领导，我们的 DNA。我认为第二个是可能就像必要性，其中如果你你知道它现在改变了像我们知名公司筹集了很多钱等等。但你知道，历史上我们非常像最小最不资金的玩家在这个空间像在很多方面，这是个完整的奇迹，我认为我们喜欢到达我们的阶段，像我们没有像 Meta 或 Google 的自由现金流或分发。我们没有像 OpenAI 的首先动作优势。所以像你做什么对？我认为有呃有个更广泛的原则我有关于生活的，像通过约束的自由。当你有当你有一堆约束应用于你，不管那在个人生活还是工作。我认为那可以只是它可以带很多自由，因为它只是释放所有那个过度的选择。你像好的，像那就是很清楚那条路。我认为对我们就像好的你没有吨资金。你是个小玩家。你没有分发。像你只是有真的选择个非常窄的焦点，甚至对一个非常通用技术最大化你的逃逸速度的机会。呃我认为那也只是与历史怎样展开有关，对，所以你知道它是早期那样很好。但 Anthropic 有一个版本 Claude，我们有个聊天机器人在 ChatGPT 启动前。我们最终选择不启动它出于安全原因。我认为团队不想有效地启动个 AI 全球军备竞赛。呃你知道，ChatGPT 启动，像他们得到像疯狂的牵引对。那只是自然某种拉他们朝向消费者。你知道，有个另一个世界如果 Anthropic 启动第一权利。也许会是另一个方式。甚至有所有那焦点东西。所以它的谁知道。它的它总是难说回顾一些那些东西

[1:10:42] Lenny

wow I didn't know that I think also people just don't realize how far behind Anthropic was like right now it's like of course they're amazing but like I just remember when people were talking about Anthropic, we were raising money. I was like, there's no way they're going to compete with OpenAI at this point. It's like so over just like they're so far ahead. And it shows the power of focus and just uh I guess I don't know all the things you all did. Like it it is absurd how far y'all have come and how successful and how things have changed so quickly.

哇，我不知道那个。我认为人们也不意识到 Anthropic 当时有多落后。就像现在它像当然他们很棒。但就像我只是记得当人们谈论 Anthropic，我们在筹钱。我就像，没可能他们会和 OpenAI 竞争在这。它就像太遥远了。就像他们那么领先。而这展示了焦点的力量，就只是呃我猜我不知道你们所有做的东西。就像你们有多远来的这荒唐，和成功的方式，和事物变化有多快

[1:11:14] Amole

Yeah. And I I would say I I very much agree. I think a lot of that like we I think a lot of that comes down to our leadership team. We have a number of people who've worked at like call it like the best companies you know in the world very senior people and I think almost uniformly everyone's like this is the strongest leadership team out of any of those companies and so I think a lot comes from them and then we're just very lucky to have incredible people. Uh, I think that that helps a lot as well.

对。我我会说我我非常同意。我认为很多那个像我认为很多来自我们的领导团队。我们有许多人像在最好的公司工作在世界各地非常高级的人。我认为几乎一致每个人像这就是这些公司中任何一个的最强的领导团队。所以我认为很多来自他们。然后我们只是非常幸运有了不起的人。呃，我认为那帮助很多

[1:11:41] Lenny

On the coding piece, just to make sure that part is is clear, I never thought about this that the reason that the bet was so deep on coding is not just that's a huge tam, but it's that this will excel. This is a feedback loop that will accelerate us further and further. So, if we get the best at coding, coding will help us do research. It'll help us build better models and accelerate faster and faster.

在编码方面，只是为了确保那部分清楚，我从来没这样想过。这赌注在编码上那么深的原因不只是那是个巨大的 TAM。而是这会加快。这是个反馈循环，会加快我们进一步进一步。所以，如果我们成为最好的编码，编码会帮我们做研究。它会帮我们构建更好的模型，加快更快更快

[1:12:01] Amole

Yeah, that's correct. And and this is something I checked Dario has talked about this publicly so I invite to find

是的，没错。我检查过了，Dario 已经公开谈论过这个，所以我邀请你去查一下

[1:12:07] Lenny

like okay it makes sense. Um the safety piece is really interesting so I want to spend a little time here. So famously anthropic I think the official name of anthropic is anthropic and AI safety research company. As a growth person there's this balance I imagine you strike between growing and just and not and the mission being don't grow at all cost. Our goal is AI safety and alignment. How do you balance those two things? How does that impact your job? Look, I think it's something we take very very seriously and um it is it's the whole reason the company exists and and and if you think about it's it's all the way from it's why they they they left to start the company. It's deep in our corporate structure itself. So you historically um everyone raising money is like go go create a Delaware C corp and and that's like the structure you do and with a with a corporation um you have a fidiciary duty to maximize returns for sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh shareholders, maximize shareholder value. And uh from the beginning they they went a different way. We we went to went and created a public benefit corporation PBC which allows you to legally say that maximizing shareholder value is not the the like overarching umbrella goal of this of this company and you you can optimize for for public benefits. So really I think it it starts from there and it it ladders down from there. for us, you know, our our our purpose, our our mission ultimately is to is to make sure that the transition to powerful AI goes well and is is net beneficial for for humanity. Um, you know, we I think internally like we we are like very excited and I think honestly there's a lot of like very very optimistic about where this can go, but we also understand what what the risks are. And so for us that topline objective of this just like this needs to go well for humanity. this just needs to go well for humanity. That is something that we are happy to take a significant commercial hit for and and we've done that time and time again, right? So like we have a you know like back then, okay, you had clawed but you don't want to release it cuz you're like there's these safety risks and so there's time and time again that I' I've seen we've been happy to take that hit and it's it's actually worked out well for us in other ways. from like a growth lens, you know, I I look at it as like growth teams can often push the boundaries of what is like good user X UX, etc. because they're trying to very very uh much like eek out metrics at times. When I think about if a controversial test is is bought to me, I I sort of look at it as like this there's two types of tests that are controversial. One is when that test is so controversial that you you just should not run the thing because the results don't matter because you would not ship it for a combination of uh you know brand and and sort of customer friendliness and and values. And then the second is where it's like it's controversial. You're like I don't like it. I certainly don't love it but it it's it's like it's not like a red line. And so you're like, you know, if someone comes to you with conviction and is like, I have a really good hypothesis around this and you're like, I don't love it. But like, you can run the test and see what impact it has. And if it's like if it's like a high level of like cringe or ick, then I want to see a high level of return for for the result for that. I kind of think about everything like is is it in is it in one or is it in two? And for every company that one and and two is is is different. Um, I think for us the AI safety is like very much in in in one. I think that it's like, yeah, that's why we exist. Like, yeah, it's fine. We're just not going to not going to do this thing. I think then there's other things that fall into two where you're like heightened sensitivity, but we can we can we can try it and and see what happens. I think zooming out though, Lenny, one of the biggest mistakes I feel like I see growth teams make and particularly just like hardcore growth practitioners is is just trying to squeeze every last dollar. This is like I think this is like a general principle also in life like if you're a founder raising money you're just trying to squeeze that like last dollar like you don't you don't want to do that because you want people to come back next time as well is my view and I think in in growth like it's it's I think it's really important that you you just need to be okay leaving money on the table and that's a core principle for us as a growth team where we are very comfortable forgoing metric impact in order to prioritize safety in order to protect our brand in order to hold a high quality bar and and to maintain a great user experience. And if you like look beyond the short term and like okay what are the numbers for this quarter and and you zoom out and you think about what are the very best products out there you realize this is how they all all operate and that's actually the thing that's going to drive more growth long term as well and and so I think that that actually ties back to safety where as the risks get higher and the stakes get higher I think the fact that we are taking a stance and safety is like critical to what we do is actually going to become a significant uh it's going to be a significant ificant um competitive advantage for us that I think is going to help us in the long run.

好吧，这有道理。嗯，安全部分真的很有趣，所以我想在这里花点时间。

[1:17:19] Lenny

Yeah. What's as you as you share all this like clearly it's working anthropic is killing it. Uh so I love when those examp when someone doing something someone approaching problem that way it you it actually works out. That's the same way I think about with my newsletter. There's so much more I can do to grow it. I just my philosophy is just like just focus on creating good content. Nothing else like all these micro optimizations are not going to matter in the end. it'll grow through people sharing it if it's useful to them. So uh in a very small scale I have similar philosophy. One of the things that people are probably thinking about as we talk so you know we joke about like AI replacing parts of jobs here and there like you know it is it is pretty scary to a lot of people just like what is the future of my job? Will I have a job? How do I stay relevant in this future? So for there's a couple questions here. one is just like for folks that want to be to thrive in this approaching AI future as a PM as a growth person. Do you have any advice things that they should be doing right now? To me, a couple of things come up like one thing that everyone says is like use the tools. You need to be on top of the tools. I think you need to be using cloud code. You need to be using co-work and understanding just each model release. What is the new things you can do with this? How can you apply this to your job? It'll work well in some things. it worked terribly in other things and then one model launched later it's like oh that other thing worked but if you didn't go back to try it you would not have known and now many months have passed so you didn't know that that was possible and so I think that that that being on top of the tools is really important both for improving your own productivity but also for getting product sense around AI products um which I think is just going to become increasingly important I think then zooming out beyond that I I kind of look at it as like just leaning into where you will have a competitive advantage and an unfair unfair advantage. And so to me it's like if you know there are some people some PMs who are really good at like craft for example and there's others who you throw them into a situation with all these stakeholders who have all these strong opinions and you know there's no way they're going to mediate this and they and they come out and it's like everyone's kind of swimming in the right direction and and so the if you think about like what is the major skill set that you have where you spike in the that that can be tied to delivering uh driving impact for a company in a product role. I would just double down on that and like almost like forget the weaknesses, just what can you do to be become like the best person at that thing. Um because that's that's like very very valuable and I think that ties to the notion of just leaning into being interdisciplinary. So going back to some of what we mentioned earlier on where it's like okay in this world of engineers are mini PMs that the the engineer who is like highly product minded is a unicorn is an absolute unicorn. I think the same thing is true for for PMs where it's like okay now you know this in this ratio if the designers really stretched and you're a PM who can design you are also a unicorn now like the chances of a company letting you go has gone down dramatically because you are now just so much more more useful and so I think that is just like really really important I think if I look at what's benefited me it's probably a version of this like I think that for me I came from a founder background. So like the mix of the the founder background, the the like finance, I was an investment banker. So like the finance background and numbers and then sales like I was I almost became an account exec instead of going into product. I was right on the edge of should I go into sales or product and I think like a combination of those along with with growth is probably what's led to like there are certain areas and situations where I can just have outsized impact to other people and and so understanding what that is for you is is really important. And I look at our financial services product. Um, you know, we've launched like quad for for sheets, quad for Excel, the guy like tank the market by the way. Everyone went

是的。当你分享所有这些的时候——显然它有效，Anthropic 很成功。我喜欢当有人用这种方式做事、解决问题时，它确实行得通。

[1:21:18] Amole

I know. Um, but like the guy running that, Nick Lynn, like he came from investment banking, he came from private equity and he just has such a competitive advantage where he's building that product and he's like, I know this. I know this. Like he's like built for this. And so I think just understanding what what are those interdicciplinary areas you can lean into to to make yourself more um just like higher higher higher impact is is really important. And then the last one is just being adaptable. Anyone who you who who is trying to just keep applying old playbooks I think you're you're going to make life a lot harder for yourself. So one of the biggest things you come into anthropic is you need to understand that probably yeah 50 60 70% of how you operated in the past just throw it out the door. it's it's not going to be relevant. And if you try to stick to that, you're going to have a lot of friction and it's not going to be helpful. So just being adaptable and understanding, okay, the job's changed this way, I'm going to go that way is is I think like it's it's so so important.

我知道。嗯，但那个管理它的家伙，Nick Lynn，他来自投资银行，来自私募股权，他就是有这样的竞争优势，他在构建那个产品，他就像「我懂这个」。

[1:22:17] Lenny

That is awesome advice. It matches a lot of what Jenny shared when she came on the podcast, the design design leader on Claude and CL work and all these things of just like like the idea of going deep, becoming the best or one of the best at a very specific thing and that not every company will need and you don't need all 10, but just going deep and on something. I forget what how she described it. Mark Andre said the same thing just like I think we called it a sideways E instead of just like T-shaped of one thing. If you could have a couple of things you're really really good at, uh there's a lot of power to that. Oh man. Okay. Before I get into something that I think will blow a lot of people's minds about how we actually met and kind of a big part of your journey, um let me just ask you this. Is there anything else about anthropic that might be worth sharing, might be worth talking about? The thing that maybe comes to mind is is just like our our culture and and the people that that we have here. I really think it's our secret source. I think it's the thing that is the most defensible, the thing that no one else is going to be able to replicate. And um I don't think it's an accident like leadership has has really invested in this a lot and Danielario they they really believe in this in this a lot and I think they've just created a very special culture. So I would say that you know this is like truly a missiondriven company and I was not 100% sure of that when I joined. Like I was like I think that this is an exciting company. I I I like very much agree with their principles but I didn't know anyone at the company. I didn't have any references on what it was like inside. So I was a little skeptical when I joined. I'm like at least they're talking about it but like I don't know are they are they are they serious about this? And then I came in very early. I was like, "Oh, oh shit." Okay. Like they they are maybe they're even more serious about this internally. They they talk externally. And so it's just like the it's it's a missiondriven company where people viscerally viscerally understand both the upsides and the downsides of the technology and therefore understand the the the divergent ranges of how this may go for humanity and and how different of a future that could be. And I think like when you understand that of how different this could be as a future for all of us and like our children and our grandchildren etc. I think it it it leads to a lot of passion for what we do. And um it just leads to a a lot of belief in in what we're what we're doing. And so I kind of look at every other job I've had in the past. There's some degree of people at the company who are just checked out where it's like, you know, I'm I'm here. I I'm sick of this, but I I don't have a better option or I'm getting paid too much to leave, etc. That is just like not the case here. I have not met a single person I'm saying a single person who's checked out. Everyone is putting everything they have on the table. Everyone is is pouring it out and like leaving nothing behind and and is just fully fully in it. And so I think that leads to like this releases energy that is just like very very hard to to describe. I think you have that energy, you have that missiondriven nature and then it's it's such an open culture. So leadership is very very transparent with us on things. We uh Slack is like a it's a it's a whole maze. There's so many things that play out on Slack. We're very open. Everyone has these notebook channels where you kind of have like your own like Twitter feed in a way where you're just talking about your thoughts about things. And so you can go and like join the Slack channel, the notebook channels of people on research and all these other areas and like you you can learn whatever you want and and you can spend so much time like getting lost in that as well. But that that openness where we even encourage like people can just argue with Daario. There was an all hands you he said something where someone didn't agree and then and the person goes onto Dario's notebook channel and just says like hey I didn't appreciate how you said this or this and that. And then it sparked a whole big debate. Um but like that sort of thing where like it's encouraged like go to leadership and disagree with them, challenge them publicly and like that I think that just leads to a level of trust and all of that together. I think it just means that we have this very very deep sense of togetherness that um man I have just like never I've never experienced anything like it. And and then you get to the talent, right? That I think that is the thing where the talent density is like I feel like I'm playing for like Real Madrid at times. I look around, I'm like, man, I'm playing for Madrid, right? It's like you just like have the best people in the world. I think it's most I think it's most the case on research. We have like the very very best researchers in the world. But even you look on on like product, we have an Vora like she is phenomenal. We have Mike Kger. You're like, "Okay, casually started Instagram. He's here." Um, you know, on growth we have John Eaggan who who's my engineering counterpart who's like the OG in growth engineering. He's he's he's he's great. We have Alex guy who teaches growth engineering at Reforge. He's just like another dude on the team. Um, and all of that I think is just very special. My my favorite here is like in the LA couple of months ago we had our onsite companywide onsite and in October and I'm walking around I see this guy. He's just walking around eating popcorn by himself. I go up to him and I'm like, "You're Jeff, right?" And he's like, "I am." And I'm like, "You are literally the US ambassador to my country, Australia, and you're just an employee here." I'm like, "This is insane." I'm like talking to our prime ministers of our country and all these things and it's just the the the talent combined with that culture, I think, is just this secret source that uh is is is the reason that I think we are as successful as we are. This notebook channel is so interesting just like as a tactical thing. So the idea there is Daria just shares it's like a little Twitter like internal Twitter feed where folks just share what they're thinking about and what their what their priorities are and things like that.

这是很棒的建议。它与 Jenny 来播客时分享的许多东西相符，她是 Claude 和 Cowork 等的设计负责人。就像深入挖掘、成为某个非常具体的东西上最好或最好之一的想法。

[1:28:22] Amole

Yeah, that's basically where it's it's an internal feed where it's not just everyone has one and you basically you share your internal thoughts. It's a way to like keep people updated on things on what's working. It's a way where people share provocative things. I think from like a leadership level and we also think about that as it's a way to scale your beliefs and views across an org as it grows quickly, right? So like if you're now adding a lot of people in the organization, you need to think about okay, what are the like behaviors that we want to model? What are the principles that are top of mind to us? And if you think about like yeah, you can have a bunch of these meetings where you talk about it. you can you can model that behavior. But if you have a channel which is like here's my top of mind and you you say these things right like if I have a post which I did the other week of like this is the importance of being comfortable leaving money on the table. Now all the new engineers on growth who've joined have seen that and they're like oh okay this is like different to to what we had we we we've known before right so I think it's like good for the openness but it's also good as a leader of how you can scale your views as an organization to like get people more up to speed on the way that things are done um which is I think really important to like avoid that drift which when you have so many new people signing up that drift can lead to a lot of drift in strategy and and sort of perception so it just helps run a run a tighter ship in that way

是的，基本上就是——这是一个内部 feed，不是说每个人都有一个，而是你基本上分享你的内部想法。这是一种让人们了解最新进展、什么有效的方式。

[1:29:46] Lenny

and more importantly it's data for the agents everyone's got running to help them work with all these humans. Yes, that is that is very very correct like it is it is something that goes to Claude you know that there are certain documents in onboarding where it's like the HR team has written before edi editing anything on this document please check with this person because this is a document that claude references as like a key thing right and so more and more these types of things of okay how does the growth team think about this how does safeguards think about this you're armying claude with that context to get better and better at at um at at helping in the future

更重要的是，这是每个人都在运行的代理的数据，用来帮助他们与所有这些人类合作。是的，这是非常、非常正确的——它是一些东西，会进入 Claude。你知道，在入职时有某些文件，就像 HR 团队在编辑任何东西之前已经写过「请与这个人核实」。

[1:30:20] Lenny

that's interesting it feels like that's something thing that every company's going to have to start doing is just sharing their thoughts in a structured way so that all these agents that we've all got running uh have what they need to know. Uh another interesting side note here is just Slack. Okay, so like there's all this talk of SAS tools being replaced by AI and you guys use Slack. I think there's this famous tweet of you guys still use Workday and all these tools, all these SAS tools, everyone's like what like they're all going to be vibe coded out of existence. the fact that you all at the cutting edge of what could be built with code uh still use Slack and all these other tools. To me, that's a good sign that maybe SAS companies will will be all right in the future. I don't know if you have anything there to share. Yeah, it's a really I think it's a really complicated picture, right? Like there's a number of things that we just build internally ourselves. Um as time goes on there, you know, your your the ability for Claude to do that better increases. And at the same time, like we use Figma a ton. We use Slack a ton. We use Workday. Uh we use a lot of these products. And I don't see that changing in the immediate future. And um and so yeah, I I think like there's there's probably some truth to some of this. I think the other parts are like it's overblown and many of these products are like they're customers of ours. we we value them a lot as customers and we use their products very very heavily and I don't see that changing in

这很有趣，感觉像是每个公司都将不得不开始做的事——只是以结构化方式分享他们的想法，这样所有我们都在运行的代理就有他们需要知道的东西。

[1:31:37] Lenny

and you have better things to do like I don't who's going to spend time building a slack at like that is not where value is going to acrue and I think it also helps you see how much how sophisticated these things are they're not just like you know like there's been teams thinking about these problems for a long time anyway that's a whole other tangent just coming back to the values thing I just want to highlight something here that's really important a lot of people criticize anthropic for talking about the dangers to humanity, throwing out all these numbers about jobs going away, just creating all this uh fear, but like and people think it's, oh, we're trying to raise money or we got to get people's attention or we just yeah, we're just trying to like create headlines, but everything I've ever seen internally is always just this is what we believe and we want people to know what it might be coming. Even if it isn't bad, we want people to understand here's what might happen and we are trying to avoid it. And you might say, why doesn't why is anthropic even building AI that's if it's so dangerous and you know the understanding Ben shared is just like we think it's better that we go at this and try to build it the right way versus just stay out of the and just hope that nothing bad happens.

而且你有更好的事要做。我不知道谁会花时间构建 Slack。那不是价值将积累的地方。我认为这也帮助你看到这些东西有多复杂。有团队长期思考过这些问题。无论如何，那是另一个切线。回到价值观的问题，我只是想强调这里真的很重要的东西。许多人批评 Anthropic 谈论对人类的危险，扔出所有这些关于工作消失的数字。

[1:32:48] Amole

Yeah. I think I think three three things that come to mind there. First is I I go back to something I said earlier which is that we we very much think about things from an exponential lens. And if you are thinking about things from a linear lens, you'll see the world very very differently, right? Cuz you look at where we are today and you're like, "Okay, but like how much better can it be in 2 3 years?" I think if you're looking at it from an exponential lens and you understand how exponentials work, then you just realize that like a lot of this stuff is actually going to be happening sooner that then than then people think if you're looking at it from a linear lens and um and then if you understand that that like that there could be upsides and downsides and the range of outcomes here, you you need to like I think we we very much like need to be talking about the downsides so we can avoid them and push towards the upsides. I think most people of the company are optimists. We're we're we're very optimistic about the future. I think it's just we understand the risk is like it is not a guarantee that we we we end up in a in a good place and not enough people are talking about the risks I think in productive ways um and and who have the know the knowhow of the risks. I think there's people who may talk about the risks but are not in the game and so they don't actually know fully like they're not like surgical on what the specific risks are but we're in the game. we understand what's happening. And so that's one piece. I think the second is like I think we actually believe in this stuff more strongly than we we we say externally. So like it is just such a key part of how we think internally that sometimes like we we just like reward your statements because it's like people might just think we're being like too over the top, but internally that's how we think and and what we're putting out is is a softer version of that at times. Um, and then I I think the the third piece is that is is going to what Ben said where we we think a lot about driving the race to the top. And so it's like if you're not in the game and you're shouting from the sidelines, no one cares. It's just the reality of of how the world works. Like no one no one really cares. If you're in the game and you're a leading player and what you're doing is working, you can influence people in who are also in the game to to take the right actions. And so that is like the core of it. Like if we just pack up and go home, you have no influence on this thing. And if you stay in the game and you're like commercially you're doing great and then you have ways to influence the that okay, the these are the principles and put that into the conversation and make more people sort of believe in those things. I could talk to you forever, Amal, but um two more questions just to round out the conversation and touch on some stuff that I've hinted at a number of times. One is I want to take us actually to failure corner because someone listening to this may be like all right look at this guy just worked at all these amazing companies cold emailed the CPO at Anthropic got a job joined this rocket ship it's all been up and to the right just killing it constantly what's a story from your career where things didn't work out when you failed and what did you learn from that experience I have a couple I think it's very much not that way I feel like it was a lot of squiggly lines uh to to to get here. The biggest I'd say is is just, you know, founding a company, raising a bunch of money, having employees, and then having to shut it down and and tell your investors that you've that you've lost the money and that you you had a vision of what you're going to do and that it's not it's not going to happen. And so that I think is is probably the the biggest one. You know, we spent three years on it. It was not like a oh, we tried something part-time. It was like, no, we we went we went for it. We spent three years raised a couple of mill. We had you know maybe seven 10 employees at our biggest and it was something that we really believed in. It was around mental health and how you can quantify mental health to help understand or get early predictors of things like generalized uh generalized uh anxiety, major depression. So like it's stuff that we really really believed in but ultimately um you know we like in our early 20s. We had like no idea what we're doing at the time. uh and many things I did differently but that was just a very very very painful process. Um I think the good thing was like we kept our investors in the loop the whole time. So to any founders who are struggling out there uh like send those monthly investor updates. It's really easy to send those when you when things are great. It's really hard to send those like when when things are bad. You're just batted down. You need to sit down and send an update to your investors about why everything you talked about last month like did not go go to plan. that it's just the right thing to do and it it keeps people in the loop and it avoids surprises, but it's still so tough when you're then calling up the investors to be like, "Hey, like we we're shutting down or making that decision. Everyone had believed in you and it becomes such a big part of the identity." It's very very tough. So, man, that was just brutal. Like, it's brutal. And it took me, I think, like a number of years to truly get over. Um, I think that it's it's it's a tough thing, but you get so much from that experience that is hard to see in the moment. And I think without doing that, I would not have gone into this. I was not a PM before. I didn't have any of these skills. I'd never worked on products. I didn't know how to cold email really. And and so it was through that job that I learned a ton of the skills that made this career path viable for me. And it's just really hard to see that in the moment when you're looking at a point in time. it's much easier to to like draw the line looking back. But I think that would be my my like takeaway is just keep in mind that it's a long game and some of those things like I'm so grateful for that experience now. I'm so grateful that it failed and went that way actually. It's very painful because it wouldn't have led to what I'm doing now and and so it's just a it's a tough thing but that you know positives can come from it. What I love about this is a lot of people have these times in their career where they're like, "It's all over. Like, I'm such a I failed in such a big way and my reputation screwed and people were counting on me and now they see I'm I'm an imposttor. I never knew what I was doing after all. Now they finally see." And just seeing that and this was three years. You had I'm looking at your LinkedIn. You had seven employees, something like that. And and then it's like masterclass, Mercury, Anthropic. Um, I think it's inspiring to hear a story like that to know that you can have a big failure like that and things can work out that it's not the end. Okay. So, at 2023, I was uh I was going to go on pat leave because uh my wife's pregnant and I was just like, wait, what do I do with the newsletter? I I need to take some time off. That would be really nice to take a month or two off. And so, my plan was, okay, I'm going to do a bunch of guest posts where people line up. I put out a call for guest post. people apply. Uh, I pick a few and then I kind of slot them in ahead of time so I could take time off. So, I put out this call, hey, who wants to write a guest post for my newsletter? I got 500 plus applications. One of those applications was from you. And the pitch was essentially how a traumatic brain injury made me a better product manager. And I still remember reading the first draft you sent me and I was just like, holy this story is incredible. It's just like like you feel such feelings and it was just so tactically interesting and useful like oh wow this is actually going to make me a better product manager. Share the story of this of the the brain injury that you went through and just the journey that you went on there because this is going to blow people's minds. It was the toughest time in my life. It made shutting down a company like that was nothing actually. Just funny how perspective works that way. Uh back in uh early 2022, I had a traumatic brain injury. So I'd done MMA for many years. I'd done Muay Thai, which is a type of martial arts for many years. Never had a problem. And just it's just like the one of the things that happens like the wrong session, the wrong it's just a normal day of sparring. Nothing crazy. You get the wrong hit to the head in the wrong way. And uh my whole life changed. And and basically I spent nine months. I was off work for 9 months. The first couple of months were brutal. It took me roughly h half a year till I was comfortable walking again. It was very very difficult. The first two three months beyond just showering and going to the bathroom. My wife did everything for me like including like texting my friends. I would listen to music for a maybe like 20 seconds and feel like I needed to vomit. I couldn't look at screens at all. And it was a very very long recovery. It was not clear to me that I would ever work again for a while actually and it was like we we had been discussed with my wife like what would we do in that case etc. And we had we had to think even on on on those those levels and through a lot of pushing and and and really working through myself and and you have to just slowly increase your tolerance to things. It's a brutal process. Uh but you need to slowly expose yourself to different things and just get better and better at each little thing. Actively work on that. don't push it too far otherwise you you have a big setback but it basically got to the point then where where over 9 months and then that returned to work and and then it slowly got better and the part Lenny you don't know is yeah we we in mid 2023 we posted that newsletter and a month later I I got reinjured actually.

是的。我认为有三件事浮现出来。首先，我回到我之前说的东西——我们非常从指数角度看事。如果你从线性角度看事，你会看到非常不同的世界，对吧？

[1:41:59] Lenny

Oh wow. And because and and when you have a brain injury, until you're 100% healed, your your risk of another concussion or brain injury is elevated. When you're 100% healed, your your risk falls down to that of a non-concussed population. But until that time, and like even if you're like 95% healed, you're not 100% healed. And it was just an innocuous sort of in in in everyday life getting off a plane, a bag sort of hit me on the head type thing. And um and I was off work for two months when I like one month into joining Mercury and like one month in I'm like sorry guys I need to peace out for three months and and that then it was a very very long recovery from that and I'm actually still not 100% healed. So I'm like I'm like mostly good but I have uh times when I have like dizziness and headaches and other things that I need to work around. Overall I feel like it's one of the best things that could have happened to me. I and and I think that keeping that mindset helps and there's a point when you can like take that too far when you're that view is devo is detached from reality but I think it's just made me so much better and effective more effective as a person a lot of the same habits like I I don't drink alcohol I don't drink caffeine I have to do a bunch of these things for my physical health I just have to do them so I keep doing them I take breaks this is like a really big one you might think even in a place like anthropic like how do you survive in this way it's like even on the craziest days Lenny between the start of the day and lunch between lunch and the end of the day, I take a short break. Um, even on the craziest days with like model launches, etc. I'm lucky we have like a meditation area in the office that I'll go to and uh and then the whole the whole side of things around meditation that I I talked about in in in um that that post. I think both you and I have done a retreat at Spirit Rock and doing a you know meditation retreat changed my life and it's something that I do uh at least once a year now. I have one coming up uh relatively soon as well. And and just I think all of that has helped with better managing the physical side of it because this job is very taxing and then emotionally having a little bit of space to what happens. Like you you have you have sort of awareness on one side, you have the reality on the other side. And reality is crazy here, man. Like reality is insane. Like there's so much happening every day. There's so much noise. It's it's it's mind-blowing. And so that relationship between awareness and reality, that's where you have choice that you you sort of learn from from deep meditation on on how to to shift that and apply your choice there. I think that that is the thing that has helped me significantly with just keeping a more level head. Um I think a lot of staying in this game at this at in this level of intensity is just how you just keep your head. Just don't lose your head in like the crazy times. And I think all of that that I've gone through has like helped me do this um without resorting to like unhealthy coping mechanisms.

哦，哇。因为当你有脑损伤时，直到你 100% 愈合，你另一次脑震荡或脑损伤的风险会升高。当你 100% 愈合时，你的风险下降到非脑震荡人群的水平。

[1:44:47] Lenny

Wow. Uh Amal, you're such an inspiration in so many ways. Just like there's so many reasons that you would not have been successful and things have would not have worked out and there's so many lessons to learn from just the stories you've shared and the journey you've been on to help people overcome challenges they're having. Like if you can like come back from an insane Was it like a kick to the head? Is that what would happen? Is that

哇。嗯，Amole，你在这么多方面都是如此鼓舞人心。就像有这么多原因你可能不会成功，事情可能不会行得通，从你分享的故事和你一直在进行的旅程中有这么多要学的东西来帮助人们克服他们正在面临的挑战。

[1:45:10] Amole

It was a It was a kick to the head. That's correct. Yes.

那是一脚踢到头。没错。是的。

[1:45:13] Lenny

Just like feeling like you may not be able to walk like not want being able to listen to music uh to just like leading growth at the fastest growing company in history. There's also just like a lesson here of constraints. Again, you mentioned this idea of just like the power of constraints. Like you're forced to take breaks. You're forced to go meditate like in a way that's really helpful and it's like a lesson for us all. This is actually really good for us all. Yeah, I think that freedom through constraints is is like a one of the big takeaways I've had during that time and it because when you have these constraints, you're forced to adapt and it it creates you gives you in a business setting, you have to focus more in a personal setting. You're like if the constraint is I can't do anything and I'm injured. I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know I'm going to get better. You have two choices. cuz you're like one, are you going to let that are you just going to resist and like fight with reality and and let and really suffer from that or are you going to accept the situation and and like not let that affect you emotionally? It's not to say like I did everything, man. I was like every single thing I could do, diet, I was like I'm on it. Every action I can take I'm on it. But then you have a choice of are you going to let the impact of that define your happiness or not? And and I think that that's the thing when you when you when the impacts maybe are not coming, you have to then adapt to okay, what do I want my happiness to be? And one of the meditation teachers said like that true freedom in life is learning how to be content when you don't get what you want. And it's not to say you shouldn't do something when you don't get what you want. But I I think that that that takeaway of just can you be content and like not have your happiness rely on on getting something I think is it's a challenge. I'm not perfect at it, but I think it's it's probably one of the biggest takeaways from that whole thing. Incredible. And we'll link to the post if folks want to read this before we get to a very exciting lightning round. Is there anything else you wanted to share or should we just jump right in?

就像感觉你可能不能走动——不能听音乐——到只是领导历史上增长最快的公司的增长。这里也就像有一个关于约束的课程。再次，你提到了这个关于约束力量的想法。

[1:46:58] Amole

I think we can jump into We covered a lot of ground. Okay, here we go. Uh, I've got five questions for you. First question, what are two or three books you recommend most to other people? Probably ties to a lot of what I just talked about. I I think a lot about meditation and my emotional state. That's what I spend most of my time thinking and like reading and researching and working on outside of of work. So my recommendations very related to that. The first is a book called Joy of Living uh by a Buddhist monk. His name is Yongi Minga Ring Poche. Um, it's it's just really about how you can start to think about your life experience in a different way and uh and and you and have tactics of what to do to kind of change just how you think about things. This is one where like I've recommended to people um it's not like yeah I've recommended a lot of people and they they've really really enjoyed it. I think another one is awareness by Anthony Dlo which is a kind of similar thing but from a different angle. Those two I I consistently recommend to people. And then the third one is more relevant to to product in many ways is thinking in bets by Annie Juke. I think just being able to break down a situation when someone's like I don't know it'll get done in time. Okay. Like can you put a number to that? Like what what percentage likelihood is it? Those types of things I think are just so tactically helpful in in in product. Favorite recent movie or TV show? I think movie is probably Marty Supreme. It's one of the only ones I watched recently. I thought it was great. I thought it was just insane. an absolutely insane movie. It was ridiculous, but but I loved it. Uh TV show I have not watched TV in a while. I think it's probably the the Olympics would be the one if that if that counts.

我认为我们可以跳进去。我们覆盖了很多地。好吧，开始吧。呃，我有五个问题给你。第一个问题，你最推荐给其他人两三本书是什么？可能与我刚才谈论的许多东西相关。我思考和阅读和研究和处理的，在工作之外，是很多关于冥想和我的情感状态。

[1:48:38] Lenny

Is there a product that you love just like I don't know one you discovered recently or just one you have in your life that's like oh this is very cool. People might want to know about it.

有没有一个你喜欢的产品——我不知道——你最近发现的或只是你生活中有的一个，就像「哦，这很酷」。人们可能想知道它。

[1:48:45] Amole

Yeah. So I this is a funny one. I was in Japan last week and uh I was on this sitting in this hotel and I actually really loved the pillow that I had in this hotel. It was very random. I've just had at times had like neck and upper trap pain and and sometimes I've been frustrated with my pillow cuz I sometimes sleep facing up, sometimes sideways and like the height's not quite right and I was just like this pillow is just great and it basically this pillow is like it kind of it's full of beads and so you can like naturally shift the height of the pillow while you you're sleeping like even like unconsciously without thinking and and so I like looked at the tag. I was like what is this? I ordered it to in Amazon Japan and I brought it back with me on the plane. And so I have the name here. It's it's called the Maruhachi Shinsui Maruhachi Pro pillow. And you can only get it in Japan, but they ship to the US. No affiliation. And I think that has changed my life in like the last week.

是的。所以这是一个有趣的。我上周在日本，嗯，我在这个酒店里坐着，我实际上真的喜欢我在这个酒店拥有的枕头。这非常随意。我有时有过像颈部和上斜方肌疼痛，有时我对我的枕头感到沮丧，因为我有时面朝上睡觉，有时侧睡，高度不太对。我就像「这个枕头很好」。

[1:49:42] Lenny

That is an awesome pick. Uh do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to in worker in life?

这是一个很棒的选择。呃，你有一个最喜欢的人生箴言，你在工作或生活中经常回到吗？

[1:49:48] Amole

Main one I'd say is just she'll be right. This is a this is a very common Aussie saying. It's like she will be right. she'll be right. It's a common Aussie saying when we're faced with like a tough or difficult situation. Um you're kind of like dismissing the severity of it in a way by saying like it'll be fine. And I think that that's just like such a good metaphor. It's such a good like tactic in in many many cases. And then I think the other one is just like sometimes in life you just have to go for it. And that is something that um the guy Eros Resin Mini who is the the CMO of Discord who is a very close adviser to me as a founder. he would push me on this and that was something that he would often say is just like just go for it and I think that that's it's it's a very helpful thing of you can sit there thinking should I do this should I not and sometimes in life you just have to go for it. I love the combo of those two. Uh just sometimes just go for it and she'll be right. So good. Okay final question. Okay so I'm curious. Uh used to be into martial arts that didn't go great. Uh do you have a new hobby that you uh find yourself loving? Do you make time for hobbies? I think I'm just like quite tight on time for hobbies. I I would say I I think it's largely just like work and have my body function and then like you know take care of the most important relationships around me. I think maybe the the the one hobby I'd say is just I'm really into sports and I've gotten more into sports at football in particular. Watching

主要的我会说的就是「随遇而安」。这是一个非常普遍的澳洲说法。它就像「事情会好的」「随遇而安」。这是澳洲人在面临艰难或困难情况时的普遍说法。嗯，你有点在通过说「它会很好」来淡化它的严重性。

[1:51:12] Amole

watching certainly not playing. I my wife's from Michigan and and she took me to a game at the big house and it just changed my life from then on. I was like, I'm a Wolverine fan and uh big Wolverines fan, big 49ers fan. I just love football. So, that's that's probably the the the one that comes to mind.

看，当然不是玩。我的妻子来自密歇根，她带我去大房子的一场比赛，从那时起它改变了我的人生。我就像，我是一个狼獾队粉丝，大狼獾队粉丝，大 49 人队粉丝。我只是喜欢足球。所以，那可能是想到的那个。

[1:51:29] Lenny

Mo, this was incredible on on so many levels. Uh I'm so thankful that you made time for this considering how much you got going on. Where can folks find you online? Say they want to apply for a job maybe on your team. Where can they find that? And how can listeners be useful to you?

Mo，这在很多层面都是不可思议的。嗯，鉴于你有这么多事在进行，我非常感谢你为此腾出时间。人们在网上哪里可以找到你？说他们想申请你团队的工作。他们在哪里可以找到？听众如何能对你有用？

[1:51:42] Amole

You can find me on my LinkedIn. It's just I'm all over. Um I'm boring. That's that's it. uh you can look online to apply on our jobs page. There's a roles across growth engineering, growth product, growth design. We are looking for great people on on the growth team. So, please come and join us. And I think being being helpful to to me is just two things. Trying our products, giving us feedback, giving us harsh feedback in particular on what can be better. And then please send uh great people our way. We are looking for the best of the best to join the team. And uh we would we would love to to hear from anyone you know of as well who could be a fit for one of our roles.

你可以在我的 LinkedIn 上找到我。它就是——我到处都是。嗯，我很无聊。就是这样。呃，你可以在网上查看在我们的工作页面申请。有增长工程、增长产品、增长设计的角色。我们在增长团队上寻找优秀的人。所以，请加入我们。

[1:52:19] Lenny

Dream job for so many people. Amole, thank you so much for being here.

对很多人来说梦想工作。Amole，非常感谢你在这里。

[1:52:23] Amole

Thanks Lammy. Bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennispodcast.com. See you in the next episode.

谢谢 Lenny。再见大家。感谢你们的收听。如果你发现这有价值，你可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或你最喜欢的播客应用上订阅节目。另外，请考虑给我们一个评分或留下评论，因为这真的有助于其他听众找到播客。你可以在 lennispodcast.com 找到所有过去的剧集或了解更多关于节目的信息。在下一集见你。