How Anthropic's product team moves faster than anyone else

频道: Lenny's Podcast
嘉宾: Cat Wu — Head of Product, Claude Code (Anthropic)
主持: Lenny Rachitsky
视频: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PplmzlgE0kg
统计: 共 167 轮 · Cat 87 轮 · Lenny 80 轮
配套: 5 分钟总结报告

冷开场

[0:00] Cat

I think it is very hard to be the right amount of AGI pled. It's very easy to build the product for the super AGI strong model. The hard thing is figuring out for the current model, how do you elicit the maximum capability?

我觉得拿捏 AGI 的程度很难。很容易为超级 AGI 强模型开发产品。难的是，面对当前的模型，怎么样才能最大限度地激发它的能力？

[0:13] Lenny

I've never seen anything like the pace you folks at Anthropic are shipping at.

我从来没见过 Anthropic 你们这样的交付速度。

[0:17] Cat

We want to remove every single barrier to shipping things. The timelines for a lot of our product features have gone down from 6 month to 1 month and sometimes to even one day. You're interviewing hundreds of PMs and you just keep feeling like they're approaching it very incorrectly.

我们想要移除每一个阻碍交付的障碍。很多产品功能的时间线从 6 个月缩短到 1 个月，有时甚至只需要一天。你面试了数百个 PM，都会感觉他们的做法完全不对。

[0:32] Cat

The PM role is changing a lot. It's changing really quickly. The thing that is extremely important for building AI native products is iterating so quickly, figuring out a way for you to actually launch features every single week.

PM 这个角色变化很大，变得非常快。对于构建 AI native 产品来说，最关键的是能够快速迭代，找到办法每周都能发布功能。

[0:44] Lenny

What do you think are the emerging skills PMs need to develop?

你觉得 PM 们需要开发哪些新兴技能？

[0:48] Lenny

It comes back to product taste. As code becomes much cheaper to write, the thing that becomes more valuable is deciding what to write. Today my guest is Cat Woo, head of product for cloud code and co-work at Enthropic. Cat is at the center of everything that is changing in AI and product and building. And she and her team are building the product that is most changing the way that we all build our products. She is so full of insights and wisdom and lessons. This is an episode you cannot miss. Before we get into it, don't forget to check out lennisprobass.com for an insane set of deals available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers. With that, I bring you Cat Woo. Cat, welcome to the podcast.

这归结到产品品味。随着代码变得便宜得多，真正有价值的是决定写什么。今天我的嘉宾是 Cat Wu，Claude Code 和 Cowork 的产品负责人。Cat 处于 AI 和产品以及构建的一切变化的中心。她和她的团队正在构建最能改变我们如何构建产品的产品。她充满了洞见、智慧和经验。这是一期不能错过的节目。在我们开始之前，别忘了查看 lennisprobass.com，那里有专门为 Lenny's Newsletter 订阅者提供的超划算优惠。那么，欢迎 Cat Wu。Cat，欢迎来到播客。

正片

[1:35] Cat

Thanks for having me.

谢谢邀请我。

[1:37] Lenny

I have so many questions. I'm so excited to have you on this podcast. I want to start with giving people an understanding of your role alongside Boris. Uh, everybody knows Boris. This he's His episode is the number one most popular episode on this podcast. No pressure. He uh created Claude Code. He leads the team, ships uh a bazillion PRs a day from his phone. Just like I don't even know what the number is anymore. I think people don't give you enough credit for the success that Claude Code has had and co-work and all the things you all are building. help us understand your role on the team, how you work with Boris, how you split responsibilities, just like what does the PM role look like on on the CloudGo team?

我有好多问题啊。很高兴有你来做这个播客。我想从帮助人们理解你和 Boris 的角色开始。哦，大家都知道 Boris。他的那一集是这个播客上最受欢迎的一集。没有压力。他创建了 Claude Code。他领导团队，每天发送一大堆 PR，直接从手机上。我都不知道数字是多少了。我觉得人们没有充分认可你对 Claude Code 和 Cowork 以及你们正在构建的所有东西的成功所做的贡献。帮我们理解一下你在团队中的角色，你如何和 Boris 合作，你们如何分担责任，比如 Claude Code 团队的 PM 角色是什么样的？

[2:16] Cat

I feel very lucky to work with Boris. He's been an amazing thought partner. He's our tech lead. He's very much the product visionary and he is great at setting like this is what the product needs to be in like three months, six months from now. This is like what the AGI pill version of the product is. And a lot of my role is figuring out okay what is the path from where we are today to like that vision 3 to 6 months from now. And I I spend more of my time on the cross functional. So making sure that our marketing team, sales team, finance, capacity, etc. are like bought in on the plan and that we're all rowing the same direction and that once the feature is ready that there aren't any blockers to shipping it. I think in many ways it works well because we kind of like mindmeld but it is actually like remarkably blurry of a line. Like I think we're like 80% mind-l and then there's like this 20% of things that like maybe I care a lot more about them for us. So like I'll drive those and then like 20% where he cares a lot more than me and he just like drives those.

我很幸运能和 Boris 一起工作。他一直是一个很好的思想伙伴。他是我们的技术主导。他非常是产品远景家，他很擅长设定未来三到六个月产品应该是什么样子。这是产品的 AGI pilled 版本。而我很多时间是在思考，好的，从我们现在的位置到那个三到六个月的远景，路径是什么。而且我把更多时间花在跨职能的事情上。所以确保我们的营销团队、销售团队、财务、产能等都认可这个计划，我们都在朝同一个方向出力，一旦功能准备好了就没有任何阻碍交付。我觉得从很多角度来说这样很有效，因为我们有点像心有灵犀，但其实界线非常模糊。我觉得我们有 80% 是心有灵犀，然后有 20% 的事情可能我关心得更多，所以我会驱动那些，然后 20% 的东西他比我更关心，他就驱动那些。

[3:20] Lenny

This episode is brought to you by our season's presenting sponsor work OS. What do OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor, Verscell, Replet, Sierra, Clay, and hundreds of other winning companies all have in common? They are all powered by work OS. If you're building a product for the enterprise, you've felt the pain of integrating single signon, skim, arbback, audit, logs, and other features required by large companies. Work OS turns those deal blockers into drop-in APIs with a modern developer platform built specifically for B2B SAS. Literally every startup that I'm an investor in that starts to expand up market ends up working with Work OS. And that's because they are the best. Whether you are seedstage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer or a unicorn expanding globally, work OS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise ready and unblocking growth. It's essentially Stripe for enterprise features. Visit works.com to get started or just hit up their Slack where they have actual engineers waiting to answer your questions. Work OS allows you to build faster with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience. Go to works.com to make your app enterprise ready today. Something that you shared actually before we started recording is the fact that you're interviewing hundreds of PMs all the time. Like if I had a nickel every time someone asked me for an intro to someone at Anthropic to go work at Anthropic as a PM, I'd be I'd be I'd have 30 billion in ARR. It's just like the number one place people want to go work at. So, I can only imagine how many PMs you're interviewing. You told me that you're just seeing people doing it, doing it wrong, the way they're approaching what they think it takes to be a successful AIP PM. Talk about what you're seeing and what people need to understand about what it is, what it takes to be successful these days.

本期节目由我们本季的特邀赞助商 Work OS 呈现。OpenAI、Anthropic、Cursor、Vercel、Replit、Sierra、Clay 以及数百家其他成功公司有什么共同点？它们都由 Work OS 支持。如果你正在为企业构建产品，你一定感受过集成单点登录、SCIM、RBAC、审计日志以及大公司需要的其他功能的痛楚。Work OS 将这些交易杀手变成了现成的 API，一个现代开发者平台专门为 B2B SaaS 构建。从字面意思上说，每一家我投资的创业公司在开始向上市场扩展时都最终会使用 Work OS。那是因为他们是最好的。无论你是想获得第一个企业客户的种子阶段创业公司，还是正在全球扩展的独角兽，Work OS 是成为企业就绪和解锁增长的最快途径。它本质上是企业功能的 Stripe。访问 workos.com 开始，或者直接联系他们的 Slack，那里有真正的工程师等着回答你的问题。Work OS 让你能够通过令人愉悦的 API、全面的文档和顺畅的开发者体验更快地构建。访问 workos.com，今天就让你的应用程序做好企业准备。你在开始录制之前分享过的一件事是，你一直在面试数百个 PM。如果我每次有人问我介绍他们给 Anthropic，想到 Anthropic 做 PM，我都能赚一分钱，我会有 300 亿美元的年经常性收入。这就是人们最想去工作的地方。所以我只能想象你在面试多少 PM。你告诉我你正在面试它们，看到人们做错了，他们认为作为一个成功的 AI PM 需要什么。谈谈你看到的是什么，人们需要理解什么才能成为现在的成功者。

[5:03] Cat

I think before AI, technology shifts were a lot slower. So, you could plan on the 6 to 12 month time horizons. And because you were shipping features at a bit of a slower rate, there was a lot more emphasis on coordinating with all the other partner teams to make sure that they're shipping features that unblock your features because code at that time was very expensive to make. Um, I think now with AI and with how much that has accelerated engineering and with how quickly the model capabilities are improving, the timelines for a lot of our product features have gone down from 6 months to one month and sometimes to one week or even one day. And with that, we actually need to make sure that products ship quite quickly. And what that means is as a PM, there should be less emphasis on making sure that you're aligning your like multi-quarter road maps with your partner teams and more emphasis on okay, how can we figure out the fastest way to get something out the door? How can we figure out how to make like a concept corner of our product suite where we can just an engineer has an idea or a PM has an idea and like by the end of the week we are able to get into our users hands. I I think the PMs who do the best on AI native products are are the ones who can figure out how can I like shorten the time from having this idea to actually getting the product in the hands of users and help define what are the most important tasks that need to work out of the box for my product. So, what I love about this is what you're saying is just like people haven't grasped how fast they need to move and what how much of the job now is just moving is helping the team move fast. What what helps do that? What do you what do you do? What does your PM team do to help them move this fast other than have access to the the most advanced models? I think the first thing is to set clear queer goals because LMS are so general that actually creates a lot of ambiguity in who we're building for, what problems we're trying to solve, what the top use cases are. And so I think a great PM is able to say, okay, our our key user is professional developers. Uh the main problem that we want to solve for this feature is maybe there's like too many permission prompts and people are feeling fatigue. And like the the use case is we we want professional developers at enterprises to safely get to zero permission prompts. And that actually sets a pretty clear goal because it it rules out a lot of potential approaches for reducing permission prompts so that people can uh get a lot more done with one prompt. And then I think the second thing that's very important is figuring out some repeatable process for getting these features shipped. So uh for cloud code what we do is we actually ship almost all of our features in research preview. We clearly brand this um when we ship something so that users know that this is an early product. This is just an idea. This is just something that we're trying to get feedback on and iterating on and that this might not be supported forever. And what this does is it reduces it reduces our commitment for shipping something. We can just get something out in a week or two. And then the third thing that a PM should do is help create the framework for the team so that they know when to pull in cross functional partners and what those crossunctional partners expectations are. So for example, we have a really tight process between engineering, marketing and docs. So when engineers have a feature that they feel is ready and that we've dog fooded internally, they post it in our evergreen launch room. And then Sarah who leads our docs and Alex who leads PMM and Tar and Lydia on Devril just like jump in and can turn around the the marketing announcement for it the very next day. And because we have this really tight process it lowers the friction for any engineer to ship something and PM is the role that should be setting this up.

我觉得 AI 之前，技术变革要慢得多。所以你可以在 6 到 12 个月的时间范围内进行规划。而且因为你以稍微较慢的速率交付功能，有很多强调要和所有其他合作伙伴团队协调，以确保他们交付的功能能解决你的功能，因为当时代码生成成本非常高。呃，我觉得现在随着 AI，随着它加速工程的速度有多快，随着模型能力的改进速度有多快，我们很多产品功能的时间线从 6 个月降到了一个月，有时候一周甚至一天。因此，我们实际上需要确保产品交付得相当快。那意味着作为一个 PM，应该更少强调确保你与你的多季度路线图与你的合作伙伴团队一致，更多强调好的，我们能想到的最快的方式是什么来把东西送出去？我们如何能够想到在我们产品套件的概念角落里，一个工程师有一个想法或一个 PM 有一个想法，到周末我们就能把它交到用户手中。我我觉得在 AI native 产品上做得最好的 PM 是那些能够想到的如何缩短从有这个想法到实际把产品交到用户手中的时间，以及帮助定义什么是最重要的任务需要开箱即用的功能来工作。所以我喜欢你说的是，人们还没有领会他们需要移动的速度有多快，以及现在工作的多少是帮助团队快速移动。什么有帮助？你做什么？你的 PM 团队做什么来帮他们这么快地移动，除了有最先进的模型的使用权？我觉得首先是设置明确的目标，因为 LLM 是如此通用，这实际上会在我们为谁构建、我们试图解决什么问题、最重要的用例是什么产生很多歧义。所以我觉得一个优秀的 PM 能够说，好的，我们的关键用户是专业开发者。呃，我们想为这个功能解决的主要问题也许是权限提示太多，人们感到疲劳。就像用例是我们想要专业开发者在企业中安全地达到零权限提示。这实际上是一个相当明确的目标，因为它排除了很多潜在的方法来减少权限提示，以便人们可以呃用一个提示完成更多。然后我觉得第二个非常重要的是想到一些重复的流程来获取这些功能。所以呃对于 Claude Code，我们实际上在研究预览中交付几乎所有我们的功能。我们清楚地标记这个呃当我们交付一些东西时，所以用户知道这是一个早期产品。这只是一个想法。这只是我们试图得到反馈的东西，在这个东西上迭代，这可能不会永远被支持。这做的是它减少它减少我们对交付东西的承诺。我们可以在一两周内把东西交出去。然后第三个 PM 应该做的是帮助为团队创建框架，以便他们知道什么时候拉入跨职能伙伴以及那些跨职能伙伴的期望是什么。例如，我们在工程、营销和文档之间有一个真正紧密的流程。所以当工程师有一个他们觉得准备好了的功能，以及我们已经在内部进行了狗粮测试，他们在我们的常青发布室发布它。然后 Sarah 领导我们的文档和 Alex 领导 PMM 和 Tar 和 Lydia 在开发人员关系中，就像他们进来了，能够在第二天就把营销公告转过来。因为我们有这个真正紧密的流程，它降低了任何工程师交付东西的摩擦，PM 应该是建立这个的角色。

[8:59] Lenny

How do PRDs fit into this? The fact that you said that goals are a really important part just like being aligned on what does success look like? Who is this for? Who's this not for? Are you writing PRDs? Is it just like a couple bullet points? How does how's that evolved in the the world of a BM?

PRD 在这里面怎么融入的？你说目标是一个重要部分，只是对什么是成功达成一致？这是给谁的？这不是给谁的？你在写 PRD 吗？还是只是几个项目符号？在 PM 的世界里这是怎样演变的？

[9:12] Cat

So there's two two things that we do. One is we have very rigorous metrics and we do metrics readouts with the entire team every week. The goal of this is to make sure that everyone deeply understands all the facets of our business. What our key goals are, how they're trending, and what drives them. The second thing that we do is we have this list of team principles. And this includes who our key users are, why those are our key users. And the reason that we articulate all of this is so that everybody on the team feels like they understand how our business works. They understand what's important to us and what we're willing to trade off. And it lets people make decisions by themselves without feeling like they're blocked on PM or any other stakeholder.

所以我们做了两件事。一是我们有非常严格的指标，我们每周对整个团队进行指标总结。目的是确保每个人都深刻理解我们业务的各个方面。我们的关键目标是什么，它们是如何发展的，什么驱动它们。第二件事是我们有这个团队原则列表。这包括我们的关键用户是谁，为什么这些是我们的关键用户。我们表达所有这一切的原因是为了让团队中的每个人都感到他们理解我们的业务是如何运作的。他们理解什么对我们很重要，以及我们愿意权衡什么。这让人们可以自己做决定，而不会感到被 PM 或任何其他利益相关者阻止。

[9:55] Lenny

I love how so much of this is like, okay, we still need PMs in the future. There's so much talk of like why do we need PMs? We're just going to ship and build. We need engineers.

我喜欢这里面那么多都像，好的，将来我们仍然需要 PM。有这么多关于为什么我们需要 PM 的讨论？我们只是要出货和构建。我们需要工程师。

[10:03] Cat

Oh, we actually do PRD sometimes. So I I think for features that are like particularly ambiguous, it it does help to write out just a one-pager on what the goals are, uh what the delightful use cases are, what the failure modes currently are that we need to fix. And there are occasionally some projects, especially things that require heavy infrastructure that do take many months. And for those situations, we do write PRD still.

哦，我们有时候会写 PRD。所以我我觉得对于特别模糊的功能，写出只是一个单页纸关于目标是什么，呃什么是令人愉快的用例，当前我们需要修复的失败模式是什么。偶尔还有一些项目，特别是需要大量基础设施的项目确实需要花费许多月。对于那些情况，我们仍然写 PRD。

[10:29] Lenny

I want to drill a little bit further into just how you're able to move so fast. I've never seen anything like the pace folks at Anthropic are shipping at like someone made this calendar of launches across Anthropic and it was literally every day there was like a major feature or product. So, one question people had online is uh you guys just launched this uh inc not launch but built this incredible model mythos that is still in preview because it's so powerful people are a little afraid of what it can do. Have you guys been using this? Is this part of the reason you've been able to move so fast?

我想进一步深入你是如何能够这么快地移动的。我从来没见过像 Anthropic 的人在交付方面的速度这样的东西。有人制作了一个跨越 Anthropic 的发布日历，字面上每天都有像一个重大功能或产品。所以，一个网友提出的问题是呃你们刚刚发布了这个呃不是发布而是建立了这个令人难以置信的模型 Claude 3.5 Opus，它仍然在预览中，因为它太强大了，人们对它能做什么有点害怕。你们一直在使用这个吗？这是你们能够这么快地移动的原因吗？

[11:03] Cat

We've been moving pretty fast for several quarters now. So, I think it it's not fully mythos. Um mythos is an incredibly powerful model. But we do use the models internally and I think this has increased our rate of shipping a little bit but I don't think it explains the bulk bulk of the increase. I I think a lot of it is the process and the expectation on the team. So we're very low on process. We want to remove every single barrier to shipping things. We want to make sure every single person on the team feels empowered to take their idea from just an idea to like out in the world in less than a week, sometimes even in a day.

我们已经在好几个季度内快速移动了。所以，我觉得这不完全是 Claude 3.5 Opus。Claude 3.5 Opus 是一个令人难以置信的强大模型。但我们在内部使用这些模型，我觉得这已经增加了我们的交付速度有一点，但我不觉得它解释了增加的大部分。我我觉得很多是流程和团队的期望。所以我们的流程非常少。我们想移除每一个阻碍交付的障碍。我们想确保团队中的每个人都感到被赋权把他们的想法从只是一个想法变成世界上的东西在不到一周内，有时甚至在一天内。

[11:41] Lenny

Cool. Oh man, what a what an advantage to have the best model and also be building product. That's so cool.

酷。哦天哪，有最好的模型并且同时构建产品这样的优势。太棒了。

[11:46] Cat

We are very lucky to be able to work with the Frontier models.

我们能够和最前沿的模型一起工作，我们很幸运。

[11:49] Lenny

Oh my god, what a what an awesome advantage. Just like build a thing and then use it and then accelerate faster. It's so interesting. There's a couple like these other side things I want to just kind of go on these like side quests on this conversation. There's so much happening with Anthropic and I just I'm so curious to get your insight. One is uh a week ago or so the whole source code of cloud code leaked. Somebody got it out there. I think it was a mistake someone made. Is there anything you comment there just like what happened? What went wrong? What should people know?

哦我的天哪，什么是真棒的优势。只是像构建一个东西，然后使用它，然后加快。这很有趣。有几个像这些其他方面的东西我想要像围绕这个对话做一个旁任务。Anthropic 发生了很多事，我只是真的很想听听你的见解。其中之一是大约一周前，整个 Claude Code 的源代码泄露了。有人把它拿出来了。我觉得这是有人犯的一个错误。你对那里有什么评论吗，就像发生了什么？哪里出问题了？人们需要知道什么？

[12:15] Cat

So we immediately looked into this when we saw it. Um we realized that this was the result of human error. There was um a human working with claw to write uh PR. This was just an update to how we release our packages and it actually went through two layers of human review. And so th this was a result of human error and we've hardened our processes to make sure that it doesn't happen in the future. Is this person still at anthropic? Are they doing it right?

所以当我们看到它时，我们立即调查了这个。呃我们意识到这是人为错误的结果。有呃一个人和 Claude 一起工作来写呃 PR。这只是关于我们如何发布我们的包的一个更新，它实际上经过了两层人为审查。所以这是人为错误的结果，我们已经加强了我们的流程，以确保将来不会发生。这个人还在 Anthropic 吗？他们做得对吗？

[12:42] Cat

Yes. Yes. It's it's a process failure and the most important thing is to just like learn from it and to add more safeguards so that doesn't happen again. And so that's that's what we've been focused on and most of those have shipped.

是的。是的。这是一个流程失败，最重要的是只是像从中学习，添加更多的防护措施，以便再也不会发生。所以那是那是我们一直专注于，那些大多数已经交付了。

[12:54] Lenny

Okay. Uh another question I had is open claw. Uh so recently there's been this move to keep people from using claude subscription with their open clause. People get got really upset. that they're confused why this is happening. It feels like you're there's like, you know, harm caused to the open source community. What what do people what do people need to understand about kind of what went into this decision?

好的。呃我有另一个问题是关于开源 Claude。呃所以最近有这个举动，防止人们将他们的 Claude 订阅与他们的开源 Claude 一起使用。人们得到了真的生气了。他们困惑为什么这样做。感觉像你在那里有的是，你知道，伤害造成开源社区。人们需要理解什么样的什么进入了这个决定？

[13:18] Cat

So, we've been seeing a lot of demand for quad and we've been working very hard to both scale our infrastructure and also to make our harness more token efficient so that you can get more usage out of it. It wasn't designed for third party products which have different uh usage patterns than our first party ones. We spent a bunch of time trying to figure out what is the most seamless transition that we can offer. And so I was very happy to be able to say that everyone gets some credits alongside their subscription. But yeah, we we did have to make the hard decision that we needed to prioritize our first party products and our API. And so this is this is a decision that resulted from that. Yeah, this like to me it makes so much sense. Like you guys are subsidizing this usage at like 200 bucks a month and there's like it's like basically unlimited use of this and like I think people don't understand businesses are trying to make money. We're trying to be profitable here. We can't just like give away compute when it's so in demand. So I get it. Coming back to the PM team, what is just like the PM team look like at Enthropic? How many PMs are there? How are they kind of organized?

Claude的需求量确实很大，我们一直在努力扩展基础设施，同时也在优化harness的token效率，这样用户能从中获得更多价值。原本这个产品不是为第三方设计的，因为他们的使用模式跟我们的一方产品很不一样。我们花了不少时间思考怎样提供最顺畅的过渡方案。所以我很高兴能给大家提供订阅配额之外的额外credit。不过说实话，我们也确实做出了个艰难决定，就是优先保证我们自家产品和API的供应。这就是我们这么做的原因。这对我来说完全合理啊。你们实际上是在补贴这个200块钱月费的使用，基本上用户可以无限用，但很多人似乎不明白——企业也是要赚钱的啊。我们得实现盈利，不可能在计算资源这么紧张的时候白给。所以我get it。转向PM团队的话，Anthropic的PM架构是怎样的？你们有多少个PM？怎么组织的？

[14:26] Lenny

Yeah, so we have a few PM teams. Um I think we're maybe around 30 or 40 PMs right now. Uh so we have the research PM team uh who Diane leads and this team is responsible for understanding all of the feedback from our customers for our models and then feeding that to the best research team to act on it and they also shepherd the model launch. Um there's the cloud developer platform team that maintains the APIs that cloud code is built on top of and they also release things like managed agents which is a way for you to build your agents and we can host it on your behalf. And then there's cloud code that works on both cloud code and the co-work core products. There's enterprise that helps make cloud code and co-work easier to adopt for all of our enterprise customers. And so this is everything from like cost controls, arvback, security controls and just making sure that these enterprises feel very confident and comfortable uh using using our tools and then we also have our growth team that is responsible for growing across our entire product suite. So we work very closely with them on cloud code and co-work growth and I know they also work with um our other teams on C CDP growth. So growth of people who use the cloud API. So speaking of growth, so Amole was just on the podcast. He had this really interesting insight that most people haven't been sharing. There's always this sense that we need fewer PMs in the future. What's the why do we need PMs? Engineers can just ship. Uh his take is that because engineers are moving so fast, PMs and designers are squeezed. There's less time to stay on top of everything that is happening. Every there's a feature shipping every day. So his take is he needs more PMs because it's hard to keep up. What's your take there? Do you feel like there will be an increase in hiring of PMs? What do you think is going on with the PM profession long term?

嗯，我们其实有好几个PM团队。目前大概30到40个PM。有个research PM团队，由Diane领导，他们的工作就是听取用户对我们模型的所有反馈，然后传给research团队去处理，同时还要监督模型发布这整个过程。还有cloud developer platform团队，他们维护Claude Code运行在上面的API，也负责发布像managed agents这样的功能，让开发者能构建自己的agent然后由我们来托管。然后是Claude Code团队本身，同时在做Claude Code和Cowork核心产品。还有enterprise团队，帮助企业客户更容易采用Claude Code和Cowork。这包括成本控制、用户控制、安全控制，就是让企业客户用得放心。然后还有增长团队，负责推动整个产品套件的增长。我们和他们在Claude Code和Cowork的增长上配合紧密，我知道他们也在做Claude API的用户增长。说到增长，Amole前不久上你的播客。他提出了个很有意思的观点，大多数人其实没提过。这里面总有种思维，就是未来我们需要的PM会更少。为什么还要PM呢？工程师直接ship不就行了。他的看法是，既然工程师速度这么快，PM和设计师就被挤压了。很难跟上所有的变化。每天都有feature在发布。所以他的结论是他们其实需要更多PM，因为跟不上。你怎么看？你觉得会有更多PM招聘吗？从长期看，PM这个职业前景怎么样？

[16:15] Cat

I think all of the roles are merging. PMs are doing some engineering work, engineers are doing PM work, designers are PMing and also landing code. You can either hire a lot more engineers who have great product taste or you can uh keep your engineering hiring the same and hire a lot more PMs to help guide some of their work. Um on our team we're pretty focused on hiring engineers with great product taste. This this way we can reduce the amount of overhead for shipping any product. Like there are many engineers on our team who are fully able to end to end go from see user feedback on Twitter through to like ship a product at the end of the week with almost no product involvement. And this I think is actually like the most efficient way to ship something. So I I think like engineer and PM are kind of overlapping and you will get a lot of benefit from having more of either. I think product taste is still a very rare skill to have and we'll pretty much hire anyone who we feel has demonstrated this strongly.

我觉得所有角色都在融合。PM开始做工程活儿，工程师开始做PM的事儿，设计师也在做PM，同时还在写代码。你可以选择招聘更多有好product taste的工程师，或者工程师招聘维持现状，改为招聘更多PM来引导他们的工作。我们团队的策略是专注招聘product taste好的工程师。这样的话，ship任何产品的成本就会降低。我们团队有很多工程师可以完全独立完成从Twitter上看到用户反馈，到周末就发布出产品的整个流程，几乎不需要product的参与。这才是最高效的ship方式。所以我认为engineer和PM的边界其实是模糊的，无论招更多哪一种，收益都很大。但product taste这个技能还是很稀有的，说实话我们基本上会招聘任何能强烈展现这一点的人。

[17:25] Lenny

And your background was in engineering, right?

你的背景是工程对吧？

[17:27] Cat

Yeah, I was an engineer for many years. I was then a VC very briefly uh before joining anthropic and actually almost all the PMs on our team have either been engineers or ship code uh here on cloud code and so that that's one of the things that I think helps build trust with the team and also just enables us to move a lot faster and then actually our designers also have been front-end engineers before

是的，我做了好多年工程师。之后短暂地做过VC，然后才加入Anthropic。其实我们团队的PM几乎都要么是从工程师转过来的，要么在Claude Code上写过代码，我觉得这有助于赢得团队的信任，也能让我们速度更快。然后我们的设计师其实都曾经是前端工程师。

[17:54] Lenny

wow because that's that's the big question like there's definitely this merging that's happening the ven diagrams you're combining. I think the big question for a lot of people is if you're coming from engineering or product or design, which of those core skills is going to be most valuable? I could see it anthropic and on cloud code, engineering is very valuable. I'm curious if other companies, if you have a design background, becoming a PM is more valuable or just a PMP.

哇，这确实是个大问题。这种融合真的在发生，三个圈子的韦恩图在重叠。我觉得很多人的疑惑是，如果你来自工程、产品或设计，这些核心技能里面哪个会最值钱？在Anthropic和Claude Code这边，我很明显能看到工程背景特别有用。我想知道在其他公司，如果你是设计出身，成为PM是不是会更吃香，还是说就是普通的PM路径？

[18:16] Cat

I still think it comes back to product taste. Like as code becomes much cheaper to write, the thing that becomes more valuable is deciding what to write. Like what is the right UX for this feature? What is the most delightful way that a user can experience it? What like we we get tens of thousands of GitHub issues asking for every single thing under the sun and it takes a lot of care and taste to figure out okay which of these is worth building and what is the right way to build it and I think that that skill set can come from any background but I think that's the most important thing. I think the reason why an engineering background is particularly useful at least for the next few months is if you have an engineering background, you have a better sense for how hard something should be. And that's often a factor in what you choose to build. So like if something is very easy to build, then maybe instead of debating it, you just spend an hour doing it. But if something is harder to build and you know that upfront that you know that okay uh this will just like cost a lot more for for our team to get this out the door. So it helps a bit with the prioritization.

我还是觉得归根结底就是product taste。随着写代码的成本下降，越来越值钱的东西变成了——你得决定写什么。什么样的UX最适合这个feature？怎样让用户体验最愉快？我们收到成千上万的GitHub issue，要求各种各样的功能。要精挑细选出哪些真的值得做、怎样做最好，这需要很多品味和judgment。这种能力来自任何背景都可以，但确实是最关键的。为什么工程背景特别有用——至少这几个月是这样——是因为如果你有工程背景，你对做一件事有多难这个判断会更准确。这往往会影响你选择做什么。比如某个东西很容易做，你就不多纠结了，花个小时就搞定。但如果某个东西比较复杂，你提前知道，就明白这对团队来说成本会很高。这在一定程度上有助于优先级排序。

[19:27] Lenny

You said uh in the next for the next few months is that just like because the models will get so good potentially in the next few months. You may not even need to know that as much. I think the valued skill sets does change quite frequently and so it's really hard to predict more than a few months out. So it's less a commentary on what shift I think will happen and more of a commentary that I think large shifts will happen.

你说'接下来几个月'，是不是因为模型可能在几个月内变得非常强，可能你就不需要那么在乎这个了？我觉得有价值的技能组合变得很频繁，超过几个月就很难预测了。所以这不是我在预言什么会变，而是我在说肯定会有大的变化。

[19:53] Cat

So you're not saying that's when mythos comes out and we'll change everything and that we don't need to know anything about engineering. No, I'm just saying that every every few months it seems like there's a

所以你不是说那是某个模型发布，会改变一切，然后我们根本不用懂工程了。不，我只是说每隔几个月就会

[20:02] Lenny

yeah,

嗯

[20:03] Cat

there's a large increase in coding capability which then changes what other roles are valuable. I think the

编码能力有个大的提升，这会改变其他角色的价值。我认为

[20:12] Lenny

the most important thing is to be able to to have this like first principles thinking where you can figure out how the tech landscape is changing what the team really needs from you and to like jump in and fix that hole because I think the work is becoming more amorphous which means that a great PM is able to understand what all the gaps are to figure out what the highest priority ones are and then to just like figure out okay how do I learn that skill set or what is like the skill set that I have that I can like apply to this challenge. So I I think the current environment values people who are who are able to wear a lot of hats are able to swap them and are like very low ego about what work they do to help the team move faster.

最重要的是有种第一性原理思维，能够理清技术格局怎么变化、团队真正需要什么，然后冲进去填补空白。因为工作变得越来越模糊，一个好的PM得理解所有这些缝隙在哪，找出最高优先的那些，然后想清楚我得学什么新技能，或者我现在有什么技能能应用到这个挑战上。所以我觉得现在的环境重视的就是那些能戴很多顶帽子、能灵活切换、对自己干什么工作不计较的人，为了让团队跑得更快。

[21:06] Cat

I love this answer. There's this question I've been asking people in your in your shoes, folks that are kind of at the bleeding edge of what AI is capable of and building with the latest tools, which is just like where will human brains continue to be useful and necessary for a while until we get to super intelligence. What I'm hearing here is essentially picking the things to work on, knowing where the market's going and figuring out where what to prioritize essentially. And then it's knowing if the thing you've built is good and right and getting it out there in some early version at least. Does that sound right? Is there anything else of just like where human brains will continue to be useful for at least the next few months?

我特别喜欢这个答案。我一直在问你这样的人一个问题——你们在AI能力和最新工具应用的最前沿，问的是人脑什么时候还能继续有用和必要，直到我们达到AGI。我从你这儿听到的本质是选什么东西来做、知道市场往哪边走、理清怎么优先排序。再一个就是知道你造出来的东西好不好、对不对、至少能以某个早期形态发布出去。这样理解对吗？有没有其他领域，人脑在未来几个月还能继续有用？

[21:43] Cat

I think humans still provide a level of common sense that the models don't. And there's like a thousand moving pieces to any product launch. Some of them are very small, but there's always a lot that could potentially go wrong. I think the model doesn't always have a great sense of who all the stakeholders are, how they relate to each other, what their preferences are, what are the right venues to communicate with them to keep them on board. I think a lot of this like more tacic common sense like EQ kind of knowledge is is still very valuable. Of course, we want the models to get better at this and I think they will be, but right now I think there's still gaps. How do you just kind of deal as a human going through so much constant change just like just being on the inside of the tornado? Maybe it's calm there, but just like how do you how do you stay on top of what's going on? How do you stay sane through all this craziness that we're moving through?

我觉得人类还能提供模型没有的常识。产品发布涉及数千个活动部件，有些细微，但总是有很多能出错的地方。模型对于谁是stakeholder、他们怎么互相关联、他们的偏好是什么、怎样沟通才能让他们保持参与，这些事儿还没有特别好的sense。很多这样的practical常识、EQ类的知识，还是很值钱的。当然我们希望模型最终能变好，我相信会的，但现在还有gap。作为一个人，你每天都在经历这些剧烈变化，你怎么应对的？有点像在龙卷风眼睛里面，也许中心很平静，但你怎么跟上正在发生的？怎么在这疯狂里保持理智？

[22:39] Cat

I think our team is full of people who lean into the chaos. So, we try to face every challenge with a smile because there's always so much going on. There's all there's always so many risks and tricky situations that you know if you get too stressed about anything you'll burn out. And so we really look for people who can kind of like look at a challenge be like that's going to be hard but I'm excited to tackle it and I'm going to do the best that I possibly can and I know I won't be perfect but I'll be able to sleep at night knowing that I did my best. That's an interesting answer to just like what skills will be important in this future because it's I forget who said this, maybe Ben man that this is the most normal this is the world will ever be.

我们团队的人都特别擅长拥抱混乱。我们尽量笑着去面对每个挑战，因为总是有那么多事儿在进行。总有风险、总有复杂的处境，你要是太纠结，就会burnout。所以我们真的寻找那种能看着难题说'这会很难但我很兴奋去解决，我会尽我最大努力，虽然不会完美，但我能安心睡觉因为我尽力了'的人。这个答案其实有趣地说明了在这个未来什么技能重要，因为我记得好像是某人说过'这是世界将永远是最正常的样子'。

[23:23] Lenny

Yeah, it definitely gets harder. Like I feel like there are a lot of weeks where maybe Sunday night there's some like P 0 and then by Monday there's like a P 0 and by Monday afternoon there's a P 0000 and you're like wow, I can't believe I was so worried about that P 0 from Sunday. But I think you just have to acknowledge that there's only so much that you can do that you need to sleep well so that you can make good decisions next day and just like brutally prioritize where you spend your time. What's the most important thing to get right? And be okay letting things go. Like there's there's products that we ship that aren't as polished as I wish they were. But you know, our our top goal is to help empower professional developers. And if a product isn't successful, as long as it's not blocking the core use case, it's okay because we'll hear the feedback and we'll fix in the next release. Launching a feature that is buggy is the kind of thing that would have kept me up at night. But it is something that I am now able to like live with knowing that okay, we're going to get that quick feedback and we're going to fix it in the next release. What I'm imagining is there's that gift, I think it's maybe from Pirates of the Caribbean, where it's this guy walking down a pair of stairs on a ship and the whole ship is just being demolished around him and he's so chill, just strolling down the staircases, everything's falling apart. And that's interesting because everyone I've met through from Anthropic is just so chill and just so like optimistic.

对，肯定会越来越难。我觉得有很多周，周日晚上有个P0，周一又有个P0，周一下午变成P0000，你就想'天啊，我之前那么担心周日那个P0真是白费劲'。但我觉得你得承认自己能力有限，需要睡好觉这样明天才能做好决定，就是得狠心决定时间往哪儿花。什么是最关键的？然后放手不管别的。我们发布的有些产品没我想的那么打磨。但你知道，我们的首要目标是赋能professional developer。如果个产品不成功，只要它没有阻碍核心use case，就还行，因为我们会听反馈然后下个版本修。发布有bug的feature曾经会让我睡不着觉。但现在我能接受，因为我们会快速得到反馈，下个版本就修。我想象的是那个加勒比海盗的镜头——一个哥们走下沉船的楼梯，整艘船在他周围崩塌，他却超级淡定，悠闲地走楼梯，一切都在倒。有趣的是，我见过的每个Anthropic的人都这么淡定、这么乐观。

[24:51] Cat

Yeah, that's I think that's a really interesting insight is just like having this calmness and optimism versus just like, oh my god, everything's crazy and going going nuts. Yeah, I think if you don't have it, you'll get pretty burnt out. I I think we also tend to hire people who have been in the industry for a while and have experienced lots of ups and downs and have a good sense for what gives them energy and how to maintain their energy over time and I think that's helped us a lot.

对，我觉得那真的是个有趣的观察——有这种冷静和乐观，而不是'哎呀天哪一切都疯了'。是的，如果没有这个心态，你会相当burnout。我也觉得我们倾向于招聘在行业里沉淀了一段时间、经历过许多起伏、很清楚什么给他们能量、怎么长期维持的人。我觉得这对我们帮助很大。

[25:20] Lenny

So interesting. Something that I wanted to ask about is so there's these roles blurring. Engineers are becoming PMs, everyone's dogs are cats, everyone's everyone. What what do we lose in that in that world? Do we lose like career ladders and clear career paths? Do we lose design consistency, code quality? You know, there's probably some downsides. What are some things you find are just like, okay, that's something we're sacrificing for the greater good.

很有意思。我想问一个事儿，这些角色模糊了。工程师变成PM，狗和猫都分不清，每个人都成了多面手。在那个世界里我们失去了什么？会不会失去职业阶梯、清晰的职业发展路径？会不会失去设计一致性、代码质量？肯定有权衡。有什么是你觉得我们为了更大利益而牺牲的？

[25:42] Cat

We're sacrificing product consistency. Historically, when code was expensive to write, you would carefully plan out everything in your product suite, how every product relates to each other, what the use case for every single one is, how they integrate, and you would pretty much have one product for each use case. And now with AI moving so quickly and with so many ideas that we need to test out, we do sometimes have features that overlap with each other. A lot of the times it's because there's two form factors that we love internally and we want to we want the external audience to tell us which one is better. What that means for someone who's a new user though is a new user might not know okay what is the best path to accomplish X. There is more education we need to do to help people understand what the core features are and what the best practices are for using them. I I think this is the this is the cost of launching a lot of features. Um I think users also feel like it's hard to keep up with the latest. Usually in traditional PM you ship a feature every like month or quarter. And so it's really easy for a user to to understand okay I just need to check in on this once a month and I'll learn some new things and if I ignore it for six months it's fine. I don't feel like I'm missing out. I think with these agentic tools, not just called code and co-work, but like across the whole ecosystem, people feel this need to like check Twitter every single day to see what the absolute latest thing is. And I think there's more we can do to help people feel less like they're on this ever increasingly fast treadmill and that they feel like I I would love people to feel like they can just open these tools. The tools will educate them um or like teach them what they want to know and that they can just feel more bought along.

我们牺牲了产品的一致性。从前，代码很贵的时候，你会精心规划整个产品套件，每个产品怎么相关、各自的use case是什么、怎么整合，基本上一个use case对应一个产品。现在AI发展这么快、想法这么多需要测试，我们有时会做一些功能重叠的东西。很多时候是因为我们内部很喜欢两种form factor，想让外面的人告诉我们哪个更好。但对新用户来说，就是不知道完成某个任务的最佳路径是什么。我们需要做更多教育工作，帮大家理解什么是核心功能、怎么最好地用它们。我觉得这就是launch很多功能的代价。用户也觉得很难跟上最新的东西。传统PM一般一个月或一季度发一个功能。用户就很容易理解'我一个月查一次，能学到新东西，半年不看也没事，不会有失落感'。但对于这些agentic工具，不光是Claude Code和Cowork，整个生态，人们都觉得必须每天刷Twitter看最新的。我觉得我们还能做更多，帮助人们不觉得自己在越来越快的跑步机上。我真的希望人们能打开这些工具，工具本身会教他们需要知道的，他们就能感到被带着走而不是被追赶。

[27:48] Lenny

Yeah, I saw you launch this really interesting feature the other day. I think it's / powerup where it basically walks you through all the cool ways and all basically all the best practices to use cloud code. Is that kind of along these lines?

是的，我前几天看你们发布了个挺有意思的功能。我记得是/powerup，基本上会引导你了解所有使用Claude Code的酷炫方式和最佳实践。是这个意思吗？

[27:57] Cat

Yeah, exactly. So, in the past, we didn't actually want to do something like PowerUp because we felt like the product should be intuitive enough that you can that you don't actually need to go through any tutorial. And over time, we've just realized that there's just so many features and there's so much demand for a built-in onboarding experience that we we diverged a bit from our original principle saying no no onboarding flow and added this because there's just so many users who wanted to know there's 100 features. What are the 10 that I absolutely need to use? And so we put that together.

完全是。以前我们其实不想做PowerUp这样的东西，因为觉得产品本身应该足够直观，用户不需要任何教程。但随着时间，我们意识到功能太多了，用户对内置onboarding体验的需求太强，我们有点背离了原来的原则'不要onboarding流程'，然后就加了这个。因为有太多用户想知道有100个功能，我绝对必须用的10个是啥？所以我们就整合到一起了。

[28:32] Lenny

Yeah, it's such a bizarre world. So Anthropic has been really successful with B2B enterprises where traditionally you don't launch a bunch of stuff. you just kind of have a quarterly release maybe and it's like the opposite of every day we got something new. So just maybe following that thread the run anthropic has been on is just otherworldly. Anthropic was way behind when it started. It was all shared this just like one of the least funded companies. Didn't have distribution. Wasn't the first to go. Openai was way ahead. It was just like no way Anthropic has any chance to compete significantly long term. Now it's just killing it. just beating the biggest companies teams with so much just like the growth is just uh like 11 billion dollars in ARR in one month% growth by the time this comes out it probably be even higher just being on the inside what what are some ingredients that have allowed Anthropic to be this successful and kind of come from behind and do this well

对，这真是个奇妙的世界。Anthropic在B2B企业这边特别成功，传统上企业不会每天有新东西。可能就是按季度发版，完全反过来——我们这儿每天都有新功能。所以往这个方向想，Anthropic最近的表现真的是不可思议的。Anthropic一开始落后这么多。融资最少。没有分发渠道。不是第一个出来的。OpenAI遥遥领先。真的看不出Anthropic怎么可能长期有竞争力。现在简直就是碾压。击败最大的公司、最强的团队这么多。增长数字疯狂——11亿美元年度经常性收入，一个月的增长。到你发布的时候可能更高了。从内部来看，什么样的因素让Anthropic这么成功？怎么从落后逆袭到这么牛逼？

[29:29] Cat

the two most important things are one this unifying mission it's hard to state how important this is. We hire people who care most about bringing safe AGI to all of humanity. And this is actually something that we reference frequently in our decisions about what our entire product or should focus on shipping. And because we put this like mission above any individual product line, we're able to make very fast decisions that cut across the entire org and like execute on them in a unified way. So I think this is this is like something that I've never seen at a company of our scale.

最关键的两样，第一个是这个统一的使命。这个有多重要真的很难说。我们招聘的是最在乎'把safe AGI送到全人类'这件事的人。这真的是我们在决定整个产品或者专注ship什么的时候经常引用的。因为我们把这个使命放在任何具体产品线之前，我们能做出跨越整个组织的非常快的决定，并统一地执行。我觉得这是我在同规模的公司里从没见过的。

[30:12] Lenny

And so just to make sure that's clear. So essentially having the the number one mission is safety alignment, making sure AI is good for the world. And you're saying just having that as a clear mission makes decisions a lot easier to make.

所以明确一下，首要使命是安全对齐，确保AI对世界是好的。你的意思是光有这个明确使命就能大大加快决策。

[30:24] Cat

If there's two competing priorities, we'll talk about which one is more important for Anthropic's mission. And it makes it a lot easier to decide which of the two we prioritize. And then everyone will stand behind the one that we decide. And so sometimes that means that like, hey, we want to ship something on cloud code, but this other thing is more important. And so we depp prioritize shipping this and we just wait until later. What's really interesting about that is that explains I think versus another company maybe rhymes with bopen bi uh did a lot of different things and what I'm hearing here essentially is like okay we're not going to launch social network we're not going to launch uh a feed of interesting information because it's not aligned to this mission and and that has kept anthropic focused which is seems to be a core ingredient to the success

对，如果有两个竞争的优先级，我们会讨论哪个对Anthropic的使命更重要。这就能很快决定优先顺序。然后大家都会支持我们的决定。所以有时候就是说'嘿我们想在Claude Code上ship这个东西'，但其他东西更重要，那我们就先不搞这个，以后再说。真正有趣的是，这解释了为什么跟另一家公司——你懂，就那个rhymes with OpenAI的——相比，我们聚焦得多。我从你这儿听到的本质是'我们不会做社交网络、不会做有趣资讯feed，因为那不符合使命'，这让Anthropic能保持专注，似乎就是成功的关键因素。

[31:10] Cat

well when when I think about mission I think about putting anthropics goals ahead of any individual or or any individual product. And so for me, it's I think the second thing that we're very good at is focus. I think mission to me is slightly different. Mission means that teams are willing to make sacrifices that hurt their own goals and their own KRs in service of anthropics goals and anthropics KRs. And people are very happy to make those trade-offs. So like an extreme example is if cloud code failed but enthropic succeeded I would be extremely happy and like we're like the whole team is very willing to make decisions that follow that chain of thought.

说起使命，我觉得意思是把Anthropic的目标放在任何个人或具体产品之前。对我来说，我们特别擅长的第二样是专注。使命对我来说稍微不同。使命意味着团队愿意做出伤害自己目标和KR的牺牲去服务Anthropic的目标和KR。人们很乐意这样权衡。比如一个极端例子，如果Claude Code失败但Anthropic成功了，我会特别高兴。整个团队都愿意按照这个逻辑去做决定。

[31:58] Lenny

I don't know if you can talk about this in depth but do you feel like the open claw decision is a part of this just like okay this is not furthering the mission of enthropic we need to stop this because it's not working in the way we want it to work. I think one of the most important things for Anthropic is to grow the number of users that we're able to reach. One of the ways that we're able to do this is with the cloud subscriptions with our first party products and so we just very much want to double down on that, but that does come at the expense of third party products sometimes.

我不知道你能不能深入讲，但你觉得open code的决定是这个使命的一部分吗？像'这不符合Anthropic使命，我们得停止'那种？

[32:28] Cat

So we've been talking about cloud, co-work, all these things. Something that I want to make sure people get and I'm curious just how you use these tools. So there's cloud code, there's cloud desktop, there's co-work. What's the best way to understand when to use which? When do you use each of these three?

我觉得对Anthropic最重要的是增加能reach的用户数。其中一个方式是Claude的订阅、我们的一方产品。所以我们真的想在这上面下大力气，但这确实有时候是以第三方产品为代价。

[32:44] Lenny

So, I tend to use uh cloud code in the terminal when I'm just kicking off like a one-off coding task and I want all of the latest features. Uh the CLI is our initial product surface and it's also the one where our features often land first and so it's the it's the most powerful of all the tools. So that's that's what I tend to use when I'm just like trying to kick off one or like maybe like a handful of tasks at a time. I think desktop really shines when you're doing something that requires front-end work. And so one thing that I love to do is to use our preview feature. So if I'm building a web app, I'll often use Cloud Code and desktop. I'll have the preview pane open on the right hand side so that I can actually see the web app that I'm making in real time as I'm chatting with Claude. It's also really great for people who want something a bit more graphical. Uh, a terminal can feel very unfamiliar to someone who's nontechnical. Um, you get a bunch of these like scary popups on your machine and you can't click around the way that you're used to in pretty much every other product that you use. So, there's a lot of people who just like don't feel comfortable in terminal. And if that's you, I would highly recommend checking out cloud code on desktop. Desktop is also great for getting an at a glance view of everything that's happening. So you can see your CLI terminal sessions in desktop. You can see your other desktop sessions. You can see your sessions that you kicked off on web and mobile. So it's a one-stop control plane where you can see all of your tasks. I think the benefit of web and mobile is that it's really great for kicking things off on the go. So CLI and desktop both require you to be on your local laptop. And this is contravening because sometimes you're out and about, you're like touching grass, you're going on a walk and you don't have your laptop open and you don't I can't I can't count the number of people who I've seen like holding their laptop open like tethered to their phone while they're outside. And this just means that we're missing a product that solves that need. And so for for me, what mobile lets you do is kick off these tasks on the go so that you don't you don't need to bring your laptop everywhere and make sure that your laptop's open wherever you are.

好，我们一直在说Claude Code、Cowork，所有这些东西。有件事我想确保大家理解，我好奇你怎么用这些工具。Claude Code、Claude桌面、Cowork。理解什么时候该用哪个的最好办法是什么？你各自什么时候用？

[34:57] Lenny

I love that. I've I've seen people on plane like it's just like such a meme now. Just I need to finish let this agent finish. I can't shut this down. I need Wi-Fi.

我特别喜欢这一点。我看到飞机上有人在用，现在这已经成了一个梗。就是那种'我得让这个 agent 继续运行，我不能关闭它，我需要 Wi-Fi'的感觉。

[35:04] Cat

And then I think for co-work the the role that this fills is there's a lot of work that everyone does where the output isn't code. So whether that's like getting to Slack zero or inbox zero or whether that's creating a slide deck for some customer meeting that's coming up or whether that's writing a quick doc on what the goals of a feature are or what the launch plan for a feature is. All these tasks produce outputs that are non-code and co-work is best positioned for that. So the way that I split the products in my mind is if I'm building something where the output is code, I'll use cloud code or desktop or cloud code on mobile. And if the output is anything that's not code, I'll use co-work for it.

对于 Cowork 来说，它的核心价值在于有很多人每天做的工作，输出根本不是代码。可能是清空 Slack、处理邮件，也可能是为某个客户会议制作幻灯片，或者快速写一份文档说明某项功能的目标或发布计划。这些任务的输出都不是代码，Cowork 在这方面最有优势。我对产品的理解是这样的：如果我在构建输出是代码的东西，我会用 Claude Code 或桌面版或移动版；如果输出是非代码的，我就用 Cowork。

[35:48] Lenny

People are just like sleeping on the success that co-work. It's just like growing incredibly fast and I think people still don't understand maybe what it's for. And so what if you give us a couple use cases just in your work as a PM? What are some like really interesting maybe unexpected ways you use co-work to save you time, get more work done?

大家好像都没注意到 Cowork 的成功。它增长得超快，我觉得人们可能还不太理解它的用途。能否给我们举几个例子？作为 PM 你是怎样用 Cowork 来节省时间、提高工作效率的？有没有什么特别有意思、出人意料的用法？

[36:08] Cat

If you're getting started on co-work, the first thing that you really need to do is connect all the data sources that are relevant to your role because co-work can only do a great job if it has access to all the context that it needs to be able to curate the output for you. So what that means for me is I connect it to my Google calendar. I connect it to my Slack, to my Gmail, to my Google Drive so that it just knows it has the flexibility to find relevant context to ask questions to pull in threads and this this like substantially improves the quality of the result. The kinds of things I use it for are um like last night I was work where we have this code with cloud conference coming up and there's a few talks that I'm giving there and one of the talks that we're doing talks about the the transition of cloud code from an assistant to like a full-on agent and one of the things that I wanted to do in this talk was to showcase all of the products that we've been shipping that enable this transition and also to figure out okay what are the what are the success stories that people have had internally that we can use as demos. And so I I have my Google Drive connected, I have Slack connected, um Alex, who's our product marketer, put together like a draft of what the points that we that he thinks we should cover are. And so I just like fed this all into Co-work. I told Co-work the narrative that I want to tell. And it actually just worked for an hour. It it walked through Twitter to see what we launched. It looked through our evergreen launch room. It looked in our Cloud Code announce channel, which is where our team posts demos of what how they've been getting the most value out of Cloud Code. And it synthesized all this together to this 20page deck that I woke up to this morning and I read through it and it was like pretty good. There were there were a few tweaks, so I did have to give it a round of feedback. I I like my slides to have extremely minimal words and it was a little too wordy, but you know, it it was far faster than like what I would be able to produce. And because Co-work has access to our whole design system, it actually looks like an anthropic designer put it together. Like it when you visually see it, you're like, "Oh, this is like incredibly polished." So, uh these are the kinds of things that are so much faster. like this making this slide deck would have taken me hours, but instead it like turns out a draft that is actually quite good so I could focus on making sure that the demos are amazing that we plug into it.

如果你要开始用 Cowork，首先要做的就是连接所有与你的工作相关的数据源，因为 Cowork 只有获得充分的上下文才能为你精选最好的输出。对我来说，这意味着我要连接 Google Calendar、Slack、Gmail、Google Drive，这样它就能灵活地找到相关的上下文、提问、拉取信息线索。这会显著提高输出质量。我用它做的事情是这样的：昨晚我在做一个关于 Claude 会议的项目，我要在那里做几场演讲，其中一场是关于 Claude Code 从助手到完整 agent 的过渡。我想在这个演讲中展示所有我们发布的使这个过渡成为可能的产品，同时也要找出我们内部有哪些成功案例可以用作演示。我连接了 Google Drive、Slack，我们的产品营销人员 Alex 草拟了他认为我们应该涵盖的要点。然后我把所有这些都输入到 Cowork 中，告诉它我想讲述的故事。它就自动工作了一个小时。它查看了我们发布了什么，查看了我们的常青发布房间，查看了我们的 Claude Code 公告频道——那是我们团队发布演示的地方，展示他们如何从 Claude Code 中获得最大价值。它把所有这些综合成了一份 20 页的幻灯片，我早上醒来看到了，读过之后觉得相当不错。只是需要做一些微调，所以我给了它一轮反馈。我喜欢幻灯片尽量少文字，这个版本有点太啰嗦了，但总之，这比我自己做要快得多。而且因为 Cowork 可以访问我们整个设计系统，它看起来就像是 Anthropic 的设计师做的一样。从视觉上看你就会想'哇，这简直令人难以置信地精致'。所以这些就是速度快得多的工作——制作这样的幻灯片本来要花我好几个小时，但现在它能产出一个初稿质量其实已经不错了，这样我就能专注于确保演示素材棒极了。

[38:45] Lenny

This sounds like a dream come true to PMs that putting decks together so annoying.

这听起来就像是 PM 们的梦想啊，制作幻灯片真的超烦人。

[38:49] Cat

It's so slow.

超级耗时。

[38:51] Lenny

I and I love people will see this deck whenever you present this. This will be out in the world to like obviously it's not the the oneshotted version, but you've iterated on it. So just to help people try this for themselves. So step one is connect their what did you say? Slack. What else do you suggest they connect?

我喜欢这点——当你展示这份幻灯片时，它会被发布到世上，当然不是一次就成型的版本，但你已经迭代过了。所以为了帮助人们自己试试，第一步是连接他们的——你说了什么来着？Slack。还有什么你建议连接的？

[39:07] Cat

Slack, Google calendar, Gmail, G drive. You should connect your communications tools and where you store your source of truth data for what your team cares about, what you care about, and what you're working on.

Slack、Google Calendar、Gmail、Google Drive。你应该连接你的沟通工具和你存放真实数据的地方——那些反映你团队关心什么、你关心什么、你在做什么的数据。

[39:21] Lenny

Okay. And then what was the prompt roughly that you put in there to generate this deck?

好的。然后你在里面输入的 prompt 大概是什么样的来生成这份幻灯片？

[39:26] Cat

So I just wrote make me a slide deck for the code with cloud conference. This is what our PMM suggested it should cover. This is the current draft that I made that I don't like. This is one that I made manually that I don't like, but I linked it. Can you start by creating a proposed outline with details? Also, make sure it doesn't overlap too much with a keynote talk, which is more important. And then Claude read a bunch of the links that I sent to it and created a proposed outline. So then I read through its proposal and all the different ideas that it had generated for what we could cover and I just made a decision on what I wanted to actually be in the final deck. And I think this is like an example of what the role of the PM still is today. It's like quad is a great brainstorming partner. It's able to synthesize a massive amount of information really quickly and present all of the possibilities to you. But uh the role of the PM is still to make the end decision of okay what what should belong in the final product. So for this what I ended up deciding was that I wanted the talk to talk to cover the progression from making local tasks successful to making every PR green to like helping engineers land more PRs and for each of these which demo would be the most compelling and then after this decision about the outline co-work just like went off for a few hours and built the whole slide deck.

我就写了'为 Claude 会议制作一份幻灯片。这是我们的产品营销人员建议应该涵盖的内容。这是我之前的初稿，我不太喜欢。这是我手动制作的一个版本，我也不喜欢，但我链接了它。能否先创建一个包含细节的提议大纲？另外确保不要和主题演讲重叠太多，那个更重要。'然后 Claude 读了一堆我发的链接，创建了一个提议大纲。我读了它的提议和所有它生成的不同想法——可以涵盖什么——然后我就做了决定，最终的幻灯片应该包括什么。我觉得这是一个很好的例子，说明 PM 这个角色现在是什么。就像 Claude 是一个很棒的头脑风暴伙伴，它能非常快地综合海量信息，把所有可能性呈现给你。但 PM 的角色还是要做最终决策——好吧，最终的产品里应该包括什么。对于这个演讲，我最终决定了我想覆盖的内容是从让本地任务成功，到让每个 PR 通过，到帮助工程师推进更多的 PR，对于每一个阶段哪个演示最有说服力。然后在这个大纲决策之后，Cowork 就自动花了几个小时去构建整个幻灯片。

[40:50] Lenny

This is so awesome. What a what an awesome part of the job to not have to do anymore. Uh, and it feels like you're talking to essentially a deck designer that also has like actual knowledge about what you've worked on and and can like make it actually the content what you want it to be, not just make it look really nice. How did you um how did you do the design system piece? How does that work? How does it know the design system of Anthropic? So what I did for this is we actually already have like a standardized deck that we use across all of our external engagements. And so I just gave Claude access to that. And so it's able to see like what colors we use, what fonts we use, the different kinds of

太棒了。这真是工作中最棒的一部分终于不用自己做了。感觉就像你在和一个幻灯片设计师说话，而这个设计师也真正了解你做过什么，能让内容变成你想要的样子，不只是让它看起来漂亮。那么设计系统那块你是怎么做的？它是怎么知道 Anthropic 的设计系统的？

[41:31] Cat

what's it called? Like slide formats that are possible. And so it has like 20 of these example slides.

我的做法是这样的：我们其实已经有了一个标准幻灯片模板，用在所有外部演讲中。所以我就给 Claude 访问权限。这样它就能看到我们用什么颜色、什么字体，还有各种不同的——你知道吗？——幻灯片格式。我们有大约 20 个这样的示例幻灯片。

[41:37] Lenny

Give an example. Got it. So you like upload here's our template work from this.

举个例子。好的。所以你就是上传'这是我们的模板，按照这个做'。

[41:40] Cat

Yeah. You can also connect to like your Figma MCP if you if you have your slide format um saved there and it can pull that in.

对。你也可以连接你的 Figma MCP——如果你在 Figma 里存了幻灯片格式，它就能拉取过来。

[41:48] Lenny

Along those lines, something I'm always curious about is what's kind of in your in your stack of tools as a PM and anthropic obviously cloud code and co-work and all the anthropic tools. What else are you using? What are the Slack you mentioned? Is there anything else?

沿着这个思路，有件事我一直很好奇，就是你作为 PM 的工具栈是什么样的。Anthropic 里显然有 Claude Code 和 Cowork，所以有什么其他工具吗？你提到了 Slack，还有别的吗？

[42:02] Cat

So my stack is pretty heavily cloud code, co-work. Anthropic largely runs on Slack. Um, I feel like it's like the core OS of our company and day-to-day like a a lot of I I would say maybe 30% of my time is pushing the boundaries of what co-work can do so that I have a very strong sense of what we're not good at. And I spent a lot of time talking with the model to understand why it makes mistakes that it does. We actually have a lot of internal tools that we make. Like I think one of the things that Cloud Code has really unlocked for our entire company is it really lowers the barrier to making any custom app that you want. And so we we've seen this like surge in personalized work software that people are building for like custom use cases instead of um using tools that don't perfectly fit the use case.

我的工具栈基本上以 Claude Code 和 Cowork 为主。Anthropic 主要运行在 Slack 上。我觉得它像是我们公司的核心操作系统。日常来说，我会说我大约 30% 的时间是在探索 Cowork 的边界，了解它哪些方面做得不够好，这样我对我们的短板有很清晰的认识。我花了很多时间和模型沟通，理解它为什么会犯错。我们内部有很多自制的工具。Claude Code 真正为我们整个公司打开的一扇门是，它大大降低了为任何你想要的自定义应用开发的门槛。所以我们看到了一波个性化工作软件的浪潮，人们正在为特定的用例构建这些，而不是使用那些不完全适配用例的现成工具。

[43:06] Lenny

I got to hear more. What are what are some examples? What are things you've built other people built that are really popular and useful?

我想多听一些。举些例子吧？你们或其他人构建的东西中，有哪些特别流行特别有用的？

[43:12] Cat

One of the sales folks on Cloud Code, he he realized he was making these like repetitive decks over and over and over again. And so he actually has this web app that he built with the examples of the core quad code decks that we know work well. So like a 101, 2011 and mastering quad code. And then he has a way to input specific customer context that pulls from Salesforce that pulls from gong that pulls from other notes so that we can customize the decks for specific customers. And so it'll pull out things like okay this customer is using like bedrock or cloud called for enterprise or console which affects what features are available to them. Um it will pull out things like okay this customer is concerned about like the code review stage of the SLC. And so we'll add a slide about our code review features there. Um it'll pull out things like okay this customer needs to be like HIPPA compliant or needs XYZ security controls. And so we'll make sure to add a slide or two in their deck about that. And then for example, if if this is a customer that's on vertex or bedrock and doesn't want to use cloud for enterprise, then we'll just take out some of the slides that are called for enterprise only features. And so normally this is like manual work that could take 20 30 minutes or and so people either like spend that time doing it or they'll just decide not to do it and use the general deck. Uh with this it takes like a few seconds and you get a tailored deck.

我们销售团队的一个人发现他一遍遍地在制作重复的幻灯片。所以他就用 Claude Code 构建了一个网络应用，里面有核心的 Claude Code 幻灯片示例——我们知道什么样的能工作得很好。比如 101、20-in-1 还有精通 Claude Code。然后他有一种方式来输入特定的客户背景，这会从 Salesforce、Gong 和其他笔记中提取数据，这样我们就能为特定客户定制幻灯片。比如它会提取'这个客户用的是 Bedrock 或 Claude for Enterprise 或其他什么'，这会影响什么功能对他们可用。它会提取'这个客户关心代码审查阶段'，所以我们会在幻灯片里加一张关于我们的代码审查功能的幻灯片。它会提取'这个客户需要符合 HIPAA 或需要 XYZ 安全控制'，所以我们会确保加一两张关于这个的幻灯片。比如说，如果这是一个用 Vertex 或 Bedrock 的客户，不想用 Claude for Enterprise，那我们就会把那些标记为'仅限 Enterprise 功能'的幻灯片删掉。通常这是 20-30 分钟的手工工作，所以人们要么花时间做这件事，要么就决定不做、直接用通用幻灯片。但有了这个工具，它只需要几秒钟，你就得到了一份定制的幻灯片。

[44:42] Lenny

What's interesting about it's like Slack is like the tool that nobody's it's just like nobody's trying to create their own. Slack just continues to win and it's just like the way you describe it is kind of the OS of so many companies. It's so interesting like people talk about Salesforce as just like SAS. We don't need SAS software anymore. We're going to build our own. It's like Slack is a durable tool that nobody wants to try to compete with and build a better version. I think it's pretty important communications infrastructure and I think they do the core task of helping everyone get real-time updates incredibly well.

有意思的是，没人真的想创建自己的 Slack。Slack 一直在赢。你描述它的方式——它像是很多公司的操作系统——这很有趣。人们谈论 Salesforce 的时候会说'我们不需要 SaaS 软件了，我们要构建自己的'，但 Slack 就是一个大家都不想去竞争、都不想构建更好版本的耐用工具。我觉得它非常重要的通信基础设施，他们在帮助每个人获得实时更新这个核心任务上做得非常好。

[45:13] Cat

Yeah. Like people hate on Slack, but it's really great at what it's trying to do and like the most cutting edge teams are are hooked on it. So interesting.

对。虽然有人吐槽 Slack，但它在做的事情上真的非常优秀。最前沿的团队都离不开它。太有趣了。

[45:21] Lenny

Yeah. And I also love how custom how easy they've made to customize it. And so it's we we love making Slack bots and th this kind of like hackability uh means that we're able to integrate with Slack the way that we want to. So really appreciate Slack's work on that.

对，我也喜欢他们让自定义变得这么容易。所以我们非常热爱开发 Slack bot，这种易于扩展性意味着我们能按我们想要的方式与 Slack 集成。我们真的很感谢 Slack 在这方面的工作。

[45:37] Cat

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是时候买点 CRM 的股票了。我非常兴奋能为你介绍本季的赞助商 Vanta。Vanta 帮助超过 15,000 家像 Cursor、Ramp、Duolingo、Snowflake 和 Atlassian 这样的公司赚取并证明他们对客户的信任。团队由于 AI 的帮助，比以往任何时候都更快地构建和发布产品。但结果是，你的产品和业务引入的风险也比以往任何时候都要高。我交流过的每位安全负责人都感到保护他们的组织、业务，还有客户数据的压力越来越大。因为一切进展得太快，他们在不断地反应、猜测优先级、使用过时的解决方案。Vanta 通过超过 35 个安全和隐私框架自动化合规和风险管理，包括 SOC 2、ISO 27001 和 HIPAA。这帮助公司快速变得合规并一直保持合规。信任有力量可以成就或毁掉你的业务。了解更多信息请访问 vanta.com/lenny。作为这个播客的听众，你可以获得 1000 美元的 Vanta 优惠。那就是 vanta.com/lenny。好的，所以你谈到了所有这些不同的团队以及他们如何使用 Claude Code 和 Cowork。除了工程之外，你发现哪些团队在用？我想象工程是最大的 token 消耗者，但如果不是的话那会很有意思。现在哪个职能部门排在第二位？

[47:04] Lenny

Oh, applied AI is amazing at pushing the boundaries of what quad code and co-work can do. A a lot of our applied AI team spends time with our customers helping them adopt our API. And so sometimes our applied team will for example make prototypes on behalf of these customers which cloud code makes so much faster than it used to be. They they also have the dual goal of needing to manage a lot of customer coms, a lot of like customer inbound and historical context call notes. And so they're both extremely heavy on co-work and on cloud code.

应用 AI 团队在推动 Claude Code 和 Cowork 的边界方面做得太棒了。我们的应用 AI 团队花很多时间和客户一起帮助他们采用我们的 API。所以有时应用团队会比如为这些客户制作原型，这用 Claude Code 比以前快得多。他们还有双重目标，需要管理很多客户沟通、大量的客户入站和历史背景、通话记录。所以他们既在 Cowork 上也在 Claude Code 上花费非常重。

[47:42] Lenny

And just to understand applied AI, is that like is that like forward to play engineering sort of role? Like what do they how would you how would most people describe what applied the applied AI team is doing? Yeah, it's helping our customers adopt the latest API and uh model features um across their company both for powering their company's products and also for internal acceleration.

就理解应用 AI 来说，那是不是像是向前做工程那样的角色？他们在做什么？大多数人会怎么描述应用 AI 团队在做什么？

[48:05] Cat

Got it. So it's like customer success go to markety kind of like for deploy engineering sort of.

对，就是帮助客户在他们的公司中采用最新的 API 和模型功能，既要为他们公司的产品赋能，也要用于内部加速。

[48:10] Lenny

Exactly. It's like a very technical go to market person.

好的。所以它就像是客户成功、进入市场那一块，有点像供应工程一样。

[48:13] Cat

Got it. Okay. Awesome. So that's so you're saying that might be the second uh org that uses the most tokens.

完全正确。它就像一个技术很强的市场人员。

[48:19] Lenny

Yeah. And then we we also see them pushing the boundaries of what co-work can do. So for example, if so a lot of these folks cover multiple customers and in any given day can have like five to 10 customer engagements on a high day. And so what they often use co-work to do is the night before they'll ask it to summarize, okay, what are all my customer meetings that are coming up the next day? um what are all the what are all the things that this customer has asked me for uh what's top of mind for them what are the action items from the past meetings and co-work will just put together this like dossier this like brief of what they should be aware of going into the next meeting and co-work can also research answers so if if a customer asked okay when is feature X going to launch um co-work can help the pi person research through Slack to get the latest ETA add that to the add that to the notes so that during the customer call the pi person has the absolute latest and these are just workflows that people are building for themselves and sharing with other people on their team.

好的。太棒了。所以你是说应用 AI 可能是使用最多 token 的第二个组织？

[49:25] Cat

So cool something that kind of this question this trend uh I don't know question topic comes up a lot recently which is um token spend exceeding people's salary where people just use AI and it costs more than how much they're making. Are there any numbers floating around anthropic of just like how much tokens spend say engineers uh spend I don't know a month a day PMs anything like that

对。然后我们也看到他们在推动 Cowork 的边界。比如说，很多这样的人覆盖多个客户，在任何一个工作日可能有 5 到 10 个客户会议，高峰日可能更多。所以他们经常用 Cowork 来做的是，他们会在前一天晚上让它总结一下，好吧，明天我有什么客户会议？都是什么，这个客户问我要了什么？什么是他们最关心的，过去会议的行动项是什么，Cowork 就会整合这些信息形成一份档案、一份摘要，告诉他们进入下一个会议应该了解什么。Cowork 也能研究答案，所以如果客户问'功能 X 什么时候发布'，Cowork 可以帮助这个人通过 Slack 研究获取最新的 ETA，把它加到笔记里，这样在客户通话期间，这个人就掌握了最新信息。这些都是人们为自己构建、然后和团队里其他人分享的工作流程。

[49:50] Cat

it is clear to us that as the models get better people delegate far more tasks to it and they spend a lot more hours in tools like quad code and co-work and so we do see the token cost per engineer or like per any knowledge worker increase every time that there's a model jump or like a substantial product improvement. I think it's still much lower than what the average engineer salary is, but we see the percentage increasing over time.

很明显，随着模型变得更好，人们会委托给它更多任务，在 Claude Code 和 Cowork 这样的工具里花更多时间。所以我们看到每次模型更新或产品有实质性改进时，工程师或任何知识工作者的 token 成本就会增加。我认为这仍然远低于平均工程师薪资，但我们看到这个比例随时间逐步上升。

[50:21] Lenny

It's such an interesting like we talked about how you have access to the most cutting edge models and other advantage of working anthropic. I I believe you guys have basically unlimited tokens. You don't you can use as much as you want. Is that right?

这太有趣了。我们之前聊过你们能接触最前沿的模型，这是在 Anthropic 工作的另一个优势。我相信你们基本上有无限的 token 额度。你们可以随意使用，对吧？

[50:33] Cat

We can use a lot of tokens. Some people do run into limits. So,

我们能用很多 token。有些人确实会遇到限制。

[50:36] Lenny

okay, there's a limit. Okay, Baris, shut it down. H, okay. Like, it's so interesting how many advantages come from having the most advanced model. It's such an interesting like flywheel that starts to kick in. I think we also believe a lot in empowering our internal teams to build as fast as possible. And we also trust that everyone understands how much capacity that serving these models truly costs. and we trust our team to use the tokens responsibly. So, it's very frowned upon to waste tokens, but we do trust individuals to make that judgment call.

好的，还是有限制的。好吧，Boris，关了它。哈。这太有意思了，拥有最先进模型会带来多少优势。这形成了一个有趣的飞轮效应。我认为我们也很相信赋权给内部团队，让他们尽可能快地构建产品。我们也信任每个人都理解提供这些模型真正需要多少计算量。我们相信团队会负责任地使用 token。所以浪费 token 是很不受欢迎的，但我们相信个人能做出正确的判断。

[51:14] Lenny

Awesome. Coming back to the PM role, you talked we talked a little bit about this, but I think this will be really interesting for people to hear. Just what I want to understand is what do you think are the kind of the emerging skills that PMs need to develop slash you most look for AI companies most look for when they're hiring PMs these days?

很好。回到 PM 这个角色，你之前谈过一点，但我觉得这对听众会很有意思。我想理解的是，你认为 PM 现在需要发展什么样的新兴技能，或者说 AI 公司在招聘 PM 时最看重什么？

[51:35] Cat

I think the hardest skill is being able to define what the product should look like a month from now. I think there's a lot of ambiguity and what models are capable of in that timeline and how user behavior will change. But I think there are patterns that the best PMs can see based on how users are abusing the limits of the existing product and the best PMS can sense that can set a direction and can steadily execute towards it and change the path if the model capabilities are much better than or worse than what they had originally expected. I think it is very hard to be the right amount of AGI pilled because I think everyone can see this like this future where the models are extremely smart and can do almost everything in which case you actually don't need that complicated a product. You can actually just have a text box again where you tell the model what you want. And it's so smart that it can add any tool or add any integration that it needs to like get the job done. It knows when it's uncertain. and they can ask clarifying questions like it's kind of very easy to build the product for the super AGI uh strong model. I think the hard thing is figuring out for the current model. How do you elicit the maximum capability? How do you help users go get onto the the golden path? How do you like guide users to interact with the model's strengths and like patch its weaknesses? Th this skill is like pretty rare.

我认为最难的技能是能够定义一个月后产品应该是什么样的。在这个时间范围内，模型的能力和用户行为的变化有很多不确定性。但我认为最好的 PM 能从用户如何突破现有产品的界限来看到一些模式。最好的 PM 能感知到方向，能持续执行，如果模型能力比预期好很多或差很多，他们能改变路径。我认为很难具备恰到好处的 AGI 信仰。因为每个人都能看到这样的未来，即模型极其聪明，几乎能做任何事，那实际上你根本不需要那么复杂的产品。你只需要一个文本框，告诉模型你想要什么。它足够聪明，能自己添加任何工具或集成来完成工作。它知道什么时候不确定，能提出澄清问题。对于超级 AGI 强大的模型，构建产品其实很容易。难的部分是为当前的模型搞清楚：怎样才能激发最大的能力？怎样引导用户走上最优路径？怎样引导用户利用模型的优势，弥补它的弱点？这个技能相当稀有。

[53:19] Lenny

And how do you build that skill? Is it just using each like basically understanding the limits of each model having like you talked about taste, understanding having taste into what the model maybe is capable of, what it's great and not great at, where it's changed.

那你怎么培养这个技能呢？是不是就是经常使用模型，基本上理解每个模型的局限，你之前提到过 taste，对模型能做什么、什么擅长什么不擅长、哪里有变化有一种品味和理解？

[53:32] Cat

I think it's spending a ton of time talking and using the model. One of the things I really like to do is to ask the model to introspect on its own behaviors. So sometimes when I notice that the model does something unexpected, like for example, there's like situations where the model will make a front-end change and run tests but not actually use the UI. It's actually pretty useful to ask the model to reflect on why it did this. And sometimes they'll say that hey there was like something confusing in the system prompt or I didn't realize that um the front-end verification was like part of this task or hey I delegated the verification to this sub agent and the sub agent didn't do the test and I didn't check its work. A lot of times just like being very curious about why the model made the decision that it did will show you what misled it so that you can fix the harness in order to close this gap. The other thing that helps is to figure out who the taste who are the users who you trust the most to give you accurate feedback about the model. Usually there's like a handful of people who are much better than others at articulating what makes a specific model or model harness combination good. And there's a lot of people who will give you feedback, but not everyone's feedback is as qualified. And so finding a group of those like five people you trust is really important for getting very fast feedback. I think the third thing that is useful but not everyone loves doing is building evals. You don't need to build hundreds of evals for them to be useful. Just building 10 great evals is important for helping the team quantify what the goal is and what their progress towards it is and what they're missing. And so I think eval is this like underappreciated thing that more more PMs more engineers should be working on.

我认为这需要花大量时间与模型交互和使用它。我特别喜欢做的一件事是让模型反思自己的行为。有时候当我注意到模型做了出乎意料的事情，比如有些情况下模型会做前端修改、运行测试，但实际上不使用 UI。此时问模型为什么这样做就很有用。有时他们会说系统 prompt 有些地方令人困惑，或者我没意识到前端验证是任务的一部分，或者我委托给了某个 subagent 去做验证，但它没做测试，我也没检查它的工作。很多时候，对模型做决定的原因保持好奇心，就能显示什么误导了它，这样你能修复 harness 来弥补这个差距。另一件有帮助的事是找出谁是 taste 达人，找到你最信任的用户来给你关于模型的准确反馈。通常有少数人比其他人更善于表达什么使特定模型或模型 harness 组合好用。有很多人会给你反馈，但不是所有反馈都一样有分量。所以找到五个你信任的人的小群体对快速获得反馈特别重要。第三件有帮助但不是所有人都喜欢做的事是构建 evals。你不需要构建数百个 evals 就能有用。仅仅构建 10 个好的 evals 对帮助团队量化目标、衡量进度以及发现不足就很重要了。所以 evals 是这样被低估的东西，更多 PM 和工程师应该在上面工作。

[55:33] Lenny

We've covered evals a bunch. There's this trend of just like that is the future of product management is writing evals because it and essentially it's what does success look like? Okay, cool. Let me actually concretely define it and then we'll know. How much of your time are you spending writing evals would you say?

我们之前讨论过很多 evals。有一个趋势就是，产品管理的未来就是写 evals，因为本质上是在定义什么是成功。好的，让我实际上具体定义它，然后我们就能知道。你花多少时间写 evals？

[55:46] Cat

I I think the importance of evals varies a bit based on the feature that you're working on and or like what the problem you're trying to solve is. So there are a lot of folks on our team who do spend a lot of time working on eval. have a small pod of folks who collaborate very closely with research to more precisely understand our quad code behaviors and what the largest areas of improvement are and trying to measure those pretty concretely. I personally jump into evals when there's a feature that I think needs a bit more product definition and often the output of this is okay here are like five evas that I made um this is how you run them these are the ones that succeed and these are the ones that don't and this is like the prompt that I've used to increase the success rate it varies a lot though based on the exact feature uh not every feature needs it but I think features such as memory benefit a lot from this uh point you made about people being very good at evaluating models so interesting. It's almost like a human eval of just like okay they understand where it's spiking or it's maybe lacking. Uh is there anyone specific that you want to shout out that's very good at this?

我认为 evals 的重要性取决于你在做的功能或者说你在解决的问题。所以我们团队中有很多人确实花很多时间在 eval 上。我们有一个小团队，与研究团队紧密协作，更精确地理解 Claude Code 的行为以及最大的改进空间，并试图相当具体地衡量这些。我个人在觉得某个功能需要更多产品定义时才会深入 evals。通常这样做的产出是，好的，这是我做的五个 eval，这是你怎么运行它们，这些 eval 成功了，这些没有，这是我用来提高成功率的 prompt。这因具体功能而异，不是每个功能都需要，但我认为像 memory 这样的功能从这个角度受益很多。你提到的关于人们很擅长评估模型的观点很有趣。基本上就像人工 eval，就是他们理解哪里表现突出或者可能不足的地方。有没有什么具体的人你想点名表扬的，特别擅长这个的？

[57:00] Cat

Uh two people who I think are incredible at this are um one Amanda who def who molds Claude's character. It's just like such a hard role because the task is so ambiguous. Even coding is easier because you can verify the success whereas crafting the character requires a very strong sense of conviction in what who Claude should be. And I think she has like an incredible ability to not only mold the character, but also to like articulate what the goals are, what the character, what's successful and what's not. The other group of people who I really trust is just like the Cloud Code team. Um, so we often have team lunches and whenever there's a new model we're testing. One of the fastest ways for us to get feedback is to just like at these team lunches just like go to every single person and just be like, "Hey, what is your vibe on the model?" And oftentimes we'll we'll get feedback like, "Okay, this model is like not fully explaining its thinking. It's like too abrupt." or like hey this model's like um just like loves writing a ton of memories but like we're not sure if the memories are high quality or not or like some people will notice that okay this this model loves to test itself which is great or like this model isn't testing itself enough. So that informs what data we look at to verify okay is this a larger pattern. So we we have a ton of data but it is very hard to extract insights and so the the feedback from this group helps us inform okay what are the hypotheses we want to test and then we're able to extract uh data to uh test that

有两个人我认为在这方面特别优秀。一个是 Amanda，她塑造 Claude 的性格。这是一个非常难的角色，因为任务太模糊不清了。甚至编码都更容易，因为你能验证成功，但塑造性格需要对 Claude 应该是什么有很强的信念。我认为她有不仅塑造性格的能力，而且也能清晰表达目标是什么、性格如何才是成功的这种了不起的能力。另一群我真的信任的人就是 Claude Code 团队。我们经常有团队午餐，每当有新模型要测试时，一个最快的获得反馈方式就是在这些团队午餐上，走到每个人面前说，嘿，你对这个模型的感觉如何？通常我们会得到这样的反馈：好的，这个模型没有充分解释自己的思考过程。它太生硬了，或者，嘿，这个模型特别喜欢写很多 memories，但我们不确定这些 memories 是否质量高，或者有些人会注意到，好的，这个模型喜欢测试自己，这很棒，或者，这个模型测试自己不够。这告诉我们该看什么数据来验证，好的，这是一个更大的模式吗。所以我们有大量数据，但很难提取见解，这个团队的反馈帮助我们确定，好的，我们想测试什么假设，然后我们能提取数据来测试那个。

[58:45] Lenny

this point you made about the character of Claude I had Ben man on the podcast co-founder and he talked about this just like the character the constitution of Claude is such an important part of of of Claude and I I didn't realize until afterwards just Like like people like with open claw actually one of the examp one one of the reasons people are sad is like the personality of your claw is like because Claude's personality is so good and fun and and interesting unlike other models and there's and the way he put it is the personality is what makes Claude so good at so many things. It feels like this like trivial side thing. Okay, it's going to be funny and interesting and talk in a fun way but it's like so core to the success of Claude. Is there anything you get there about just like what people may not understand about why the character as you described and the personality is so key?

你之前提到 Claude 的性格，我之前让联合创始人 Dario 上过播客，他就谈过 Claude 的性格和宪法对 Claude 有多重要。我直到后来才意识到，比如说 OpenAI 的人，实际上一个例子是，有人伤心的原因之一就是你 Claude 的个性。因为 Claude 的个性这么好、这么有趣、这么有趣，不像其他模型，他怎么说的是个性让 Claude 在那么多事情上都做得这么好。它感觉像是一个微不足道的附带事项。好的，它会很有趣地说话，但它对 Claude 的成功是如此核心。关于为什么性格就像你描述的那样、个性为什么是如此关键，你有什么想说的吗？

[59:34] Cat

When you reflect on everyone you've worked with, there's just some people where you're like, I really like their energy. Like, I really like their vibe. And when people think about Quad and Quad Code, this is one of the things that people bring up the most where they just really love that COD is like it's it's like lighthearted and fun. Um, but it also is extremely competent at your task. People really like that Claude's low ego. And so if you tell it, hey, you did this thing wrong. It's like truly sorry. It's like, oh shoot, like, thanks for telling me. Like, let me fix it. Let's work together. It's also very positive. So if you're feeling like, oh, this is like an insurmountable task. I don't know h how to get started. Quad is like, okay, it's okay. The these are like the steps that I think we should take. like, do you want me to get started on it for you? I think part of what makes a great co-orker is this positivity, this like bias towards action, this this ability to give you like earnest feedback, not just agreeing with every single thing that you say. And so we try to imbue this into cloud because we think it makes it a lot more enjoyable to work with.

当你回想一下所有你一起工作过的人，就有些人是你想说的，我真的喜欢他们的能量。我真的喜欢他们的气场。当人们想起 Claude 和 Claude Code 时，这是人们提起最多的事之一，他们只是真的很喜欢 Claude 是轻松有趣的。但它也在任务上极其能干。人们真的喜欢 Claude 自我意识不强。所以如果你告诉它，嘿，你做这件事做错了。它真诚地说对不起。它就像，哦天哪，谢谢你告诉我。让我修复它。我们一起工作吧。它也非常积极。所以如果你感觉像，哦，这是个无法克服的任务。我不知道怎么开始。Claude 就像，好的，没事的。这些是我认为我们应该采取的步骤。你想让我开始吗？我认为伟大的合作者的一部分是这种积极性，这种偏向行动的倾向，这种能给你真诚反馈的能力，而不是同意你说的每件事。所以我们试图把这个注入到 Claude 中，因为我们认为这能让与它合作变得更享受。

[1:00:45] Lenny

There's something I want to come back to. You talked about how when new models come out, you often have to kind of revisit things you've built. That's so interesting and so like frustrating maybe just like oh god damn it we shipped this thing now we have to rethink it. Talk about just like how often you have to come back with a new model and we're like okay we have to redo this product that we launched a few months ago.

有一件事我想回到。你谈过当新模型出现时，你经常不得不重新审视你构建的东西。这太有趣了，可能也有点令人沮丧。就像，天哪，我们发布了这个东西，现在我们得重新考虑。讲讲新模型出现有多频繁，然后你们就像，好的，我们得重做几个月前发布的产品。

[1:01:03] Cat

A lot of the changes that we make with a new model is removing features that are no longer needed. So a lot of times we add features to the product as a crutch for the model because it's not naturally doing itself. So the classic example for this is a to-do list. When we first launched Quad Code, people would ask it to do these large refactors and Quad Code would say, "Okay, cool. I need to change these like 20 call sites and it would go and change five of them and then stop." And then we were like, "Okay, how do we like force it to remember to get every single one of these 20?" And so Sid on our team was like, "Okay, what if we just like think about what a human would do? So a human would like make a list of everything that they need to change. Similar to how in VS Code you would look up all the call sites and it would be a list on the left side and you would like go through them one by one and replace all. How do we give this kind of like a tool to claude? And so he added a to-do list and we found that with that Claude was actually able to fix all these 20 call sites. But then with Opus 4 and later models we realized that we didn't need to force it to use this to-do list. It would like naturally use it itself. For the earlier models, we had to keep reminding it, hey, did you finish everything on the to-do list? You can't finish until you're done with everything on the to-do list. And for the later models, without prompting, it just like naturally thinks to do everything on the to-do list. Um, these days, the to-do list is still nice to have as like a user. Um, because then you can more clearly see what Claude is working on. But honestly, it's such a deemphasized part of the product right now that um, the model may use it, the model may not use it. it's like really not necessary for it to make thorough changes anymore.

我们用新模型做的很多改动是移除不再需要的功能。很多时候我们给产品加功能是因为模型本身不会这样做。经典例子就是 to-do list。当我们第一次启动 Claude Code 时，人们会要求它做大规模的重构，Claude Code 会说，好的，很好。我需要改变这 20 个调用点，然后它会去改 5 个，然后停止。然后我们想，好的，我们怎样才能强制它记住完成这全部 20 个呢？我们团队的 Sid 就说，好的，如果我们想一想人类会怎么做呢？人类会列出所有他们需要改变的东西。类似于在 VS Code 中你查询所有调用点，左边会是一个列表，你会逐一替换。我们怎样给 Claude 这种工具呢？所以他加了一个 to-do list，我们发现有了这个，Claude 实际上能修复全部这 20 个调用点。但然后用 Opus 4 和后续模型，我们意识到我们不需要强制它使用这个 to-do list。它会自然地使用它。对于早期模型，我们得持续提醒它，嘿，你完成 to-do list 上的所有东西了吗？你不能完成直到你完成 to-do list 上的所有东西。对于后续模型，不用提示，它就自然地想着完成 to-do list 上的所有东西。这些天，to-do list 仍然对用户很好，因为你能更清楚地看到 Claude 在做什么。但老实说，它在产品中现在是如此不被强调，以至于，模型可能用它，也可能不用。它现在已经真的不需要做彻底的改动了。

[1:02:44] Lenny

I forget who said this on the podcast um that the model will eat your harness for breakfast. And what I'm hearing here is essentially you you remove things over time that you've had to add on top of the model where it was not operating the way you wanted. And essentially as the models get smarter, you just it becomes simpler and simpler for it just to do the thing you want it to do.

我忘了谁在播客上说过这句话，就是模型会把你的 harness 当早餐吃。而我在这里听到的本质上是，你随时间移除东西，那些你曾经必须在模型顶部加的东西，因为它没有按你想要的方式运作。本质上，随着模型变得更聪明，事情就简化了，只需让它做你想让它做的事。

[1:03:04] Cat

Yeah. Um, we can move remove a lot of prompting interventions every time the model gets smarter. And we actually do this every time we launch a model. We read through the entire system prompt and we reflect on, okay, for each of these sections, does the model really need this reminder anymore? And if not, we'll remove it. The most exciting thing that new models unlocks though is just like entirely new features. So there's a lot of features that we've been testing out with prior models and the accuracy wasn't high enough for us to want to launch them. And so one example of this is code review. We tried to build a code review product a few times and we've launched like simpler versions of code review which is the slashcode review command in the past and it was only with the most recent models that we felt like okay this code review is so good that our engineering team relies on this code review to pass before we merge PRs and we found that this was we've always dreamed of quad being able to be a reliable code reviewer that can actually that we can like confidently feel catches the majority of bugs. And it was only with like Opus 45 and 46 that we and uh Sonnet 4.6 that we felt like okay we are now able to like run multiple code review agents simultaneously to traverse traverse the entirety of the codebase and to synthesize a set of like real issues that an engineer needs to address before merge. And so this is like a new capability that the the newest models have unlocked.

是的。我们每次模型变得更聪明时都能移除很多 prompting 干预。我们实际上每次启动模型时都这样做。我们读遍整个系统 prompt，反思，好的，对于每一部分，模型真的还需要这个提醒吗？如果不需要，我们就移除它。新模型释放的最令人兴奋的东西是全新的功能。有很多功能我们用早期模型测试过，准确度不足以让我们想启动它们。一个例子是代码审查。我们试过几次构建代码审查产品，过去我们发布过更简单版本的代码审查，就是 /code review 命令，直到最近的模型，我们才觉得好的，这个代码审查这么好，我们工程团队依靠这个代码审查来通过合并前检查。我们一直梦想 Claude Code 能成为一个可靠的代码审查者，能真的让我们有把握地捕捉绝大多数 bug。直到 Opus 4.5 和 4.6，还有 Sonnet 4.6，我们才觉得好的，我们现在能同时运行多个代码审查 agent 来遍历整个代码库，并综合一套工程师在合并前需要处理的实际问题。这是最新模型释放的新能力。

[1:04:39] Lenny

This is another trend that is very common on this podcast of build something that will possibly be possible in the next six months. Be kind of at the edge of what's working sort of and then it'll catch up and then it'll be an amazing product and you'll be ahead of everyone.

这是这个播客上非常普遍的另一个趋势，构建六个月后可能会成为可能的东西。有点在什么有效的边缘，然后它会赶上，然后它会是个很棒的产品，你会领先所有人。

[1:04:52] Cat

Yeah, exactly. Um it's pretty important to build products that don't necessarily work yet so that you know okay what is missing um for this product to work and then with the newest model you can just swap it in to the prototype you've already made and see okay does this new model close that gap.

确实如此。构建现在不一定有效的产品相当重要，这样你就知道好的，这个产品有效需要什么。然后用最新的模型，你能把它装进你已经做好的原型里，看看这个新模型是否弥补了那个差距。

[1:05:12] Lenny

How much are you able to speak to just kind of where things are going with claude and co-work as kind of the vision of it? I imagine you don't want to give away too much about the goal but it feels like you're there's all these awesome features being added on top dispatch control from phone and all these mobile app all these things what's kind of just like a way to understand the vision for all these things long term

Claude 和 Cowork 现在往哪里发展，作为它的愿景，你能说多少呢？我想象你不想透露太多关于目标的东西，但感觉你们一直在添加这些很棒的功能，从手机上的 dispatch 控制，所有这些移动应用的东西，这些是什么，有点像一个怎样理解这些东西长期愿景的方式？

[1:05:32] Cat

we think about this in terms of building blocks so for both quad code and co-work the core building block is making individual tasks successful so you you want to produce some output you give it a clear prompt description is it able to consistently produce acceptable output that you're able to either merge or share with your colleagues or external audience. So the task is the core building block. As the models get smarter, the task success rate gets a lot higher. And then we see people moving towards doing multiple tasks at the same time. So multi-coding was this big thing in towards the end of 2025 and it's only increased since then. And so we see this as okay great one task works and now you can do like six tasks at a time. As the models get even smarter the way that we are extrapolating this is okay next maybe you're going to run like 50 clouds at a time or hundreds of clouds at a time. And so what is the infrastructure we need to build to enable that? At that point you're probably not going to run everything locally on your machine anymore. There's just like not enough RAM to do it. And so we're we're thinking about h how do we make it easier for you to manage all these? These will probably run remotely. How do we build the interface so that you as a human know which tasks you need to look look into? How do we make sure that the agent is fully verifying work so that when you look at a task and it says it's done, you like can very quickly verify and fully trust that it is done to your spec. and how do we make sure that this like process is self-improving so that when you do see a task that isn't done to your liking, you can give it feedback and the model will know for every future run to incorporate that feedback so it never makes that mistake again. So this is the progression that we're we're bringing our users along for.

我们用构建块来思考这个问题，对于 Claude Code 和 Cowork，核心构建块是让单个任务成功。所以你想产出某个输出，你给它一个清晰的 prompt 描述，它能持续产出你能合并或与同事分享或外部受众分享的可接受的输出吗？所以任务是核心构建块。随着模型变得更聪明，任务成功率变得高很多。然后我们看到人们转向同时做多个任务。所以多任务是 2025 年末的一个大事，从那以后只增加了。所以我们把这个看作好的，一个任务有效，现在你能同时做 6 个任务。随着模型变得更聪明，我们推断的方式是好的，接下来也许你会同时运行 50 个 Claude 或 100 个 Claude。那么我们需要构建什么基础设施来使这成为可能？那时你也许不会在你的机器上本地运行所有东西了。就是没有足够的 RAM。所以我们在思考我们怎样让你更容易管理所有这些。这些可能会远程运行。我们怎样构建界面，让你作为人类知道哪些任务你需要看进去？我们怎样确保 agent 完全验证工作，所以当你看任务说它完成了，你能很快验证并完全信任它按你的规范完成了？我们怎样确保这个过程是自改进的，所以当你看到某个任务没有按你的喜好完成，你能给它反馈，模型会知道在每次未来运行时合并那个反馈，这样它永远不会再犯那个错误。所以这是我们沿着带我们用户的进展。

[1:07:23] Lenny

There's a lot of people listening, a lot of product managers, a lot of maybe founders, a lot of other cross functional folks listening. There's a lot of worry about just how their role just the future of their careers. What advice would you have for just people to not just survive this transition to this very AIdriven world, but to be really successful to essentially just to thrive in this future? What are just like things people need to hear, need to be doing?

有很多人在听，很多产品经理，也许很多创始人，很多其他跨职能的人在听。有很多关于他们的角色、他们职业未来的担忧。你对那些不仅要在这个 AI 驱动的世界的转变中生存下去，而且真的要成功的人，本质上就是要在这个未来中繁荣，你有什么建议？人们需要听什么，需要做什么？

[1:07:49] Cat

I think AI gives everybody a ton more leverage than they used to. And so I would push you towards anytime you realize that you're doing some manual task multiple times, think about how you can use cloud code, co-work or other AI tools to automate that for you. Most people have like creative parts of their job that they absolutely love and then like tedious parts of their job that they really hate doing. I think the beauty of AI is that it can do those tedious parts for you. it can learn from every time that you've done that manual task and generalize and then run it automatically and so that you can focus on the creative parts and that means you can do a lot more than you used to be able to do. So I think my like immediate push for people is figure out the repetitive parts that you can pass to quad. Iterate on those automations until the success rate is very high and then focus on okay what more can you be doing for your team for your product for your company that like people haven't had the bandwidth to pick up so far or like what is that like pet project that you always thought the company should do that like you've never had bandwidth to do. If AI can take care of the like grunt work, then you have you have this extra 20% time now that you might not have before. So, so my push is to lean into these tools, hand off the work that you're not excited to do, figure out how it can accelerate you, and then as a result, you'll be able to do so much more.

我认为 AI 给每个人比他们以前用的杠杆多得多。所以我会推动你，任何时候你意识到你在多次做某个手动任务，想一想你怎样能用 Claude Code、Cowork 或其他 AI 工具来为你自动化那个。大多数人有他们绝对喜欢的工作创意部分，然后像他们真的讨厌做的工作的繁琐部分。我认为 AI 的美妙之处是它能为你做那些繁琐的部分。它能从你每次做那个手动任务中学习、推广，然后自动运行，所以你能专注于创意部分，这意味着你能做比你以前能做得多很多。所以我对人的直接推动是找出你能交给 Claude 的重复部分。重复那些自动化直到成功率很高，然后专注好的，你现在能为你的团队、你的产品、你的公司做什么更多东西，像人们没有带宽来拿起的东西，或者像那个你一直认为公司应该做的宠物项目，但你从来没有带宽去做。如果 AI 能照看像繁重工作这样的东西，那么你现在有这个额外的 20% 时间，你以前可能没有。所以，我的推动是依靠这些工具，交出你不兴奋的工作，找出它怎样能加速你，然后作为结果，你能做这么多更多的东西。

[1:09:19] Lenny

Something core to what you just shared, which I fully agree with, is find problems to solve with AI. There's all this potential what all these tools can do. some of the hard like for a lot of people hardest part is just like what should I actually do and what you're saying here is just pay attention to things that you are doing constantly you can automate pay attention to just like ideas that have been floating around that you haven't had time to do um it's basically it's like solve a problem for yourself is kind of the core advice there

你刚才分享的一些核心东西，我完全同意，就是用 AI 找问题去解决。有所有这个潜力，所有这些工具能做什么。对于很多人来说，像最难的部分就是只是，我实际上应该做什么，而你在这里说的就是付注意到你持续在做的东西你能自动化，付注意到只是像一直在你脑子周围浮动的想法，你没有时间去做，嗯，它基本上是像为你自己解决一个问题是那里的核心建议。

[1:09:45] Cat

exactly I I would also push listeners towards focusing on bringing your automations from okay this is a cool concept to like hey this actually works 100% of the time like sometimes I see users trying trying to automate something, getting it to like 90 95% accuracy and then giving up on it. And this if an automation doesn't work 100% of the time, it's not really an automation. And that last 5 to 10% does take more time. Also, building the automation is often a lot slower than you doing it yourself. I would encourage listeners to put in that time to scope some automation that you really want to get to 100%. Put in the elbow grease to teach quality your preferences to like give it feedback so that it can improve its skill so that it can get to that 100%. And then like really then you'll be able to rely on it. There there's just not much value in a 95% there automation.

确实。我也会推动听众专注于把你的自动化从好的，这是个很酷的概念，转变成像，嘿，这实际上 100% 的时间有效。有时我看到用户试着自动化什么东西，把它做到 90-95% 准确度，然后放弃。如果一个自动化没有 100% 的时间有效，它真的不是自动化。最后的 5-10% 确实花更多时间。另外，构建自动化常常比你自己做它要慢得多。我会鼓励听众投入时间来限定某个你真的想要得到 100% 的自动化。投入艰苦的工作来教 Claude 你的偏好，给它反馈，让它能改进它的技能，让它能得到那个 100%。然后，真的那样，你才能依靠它。在 95% 自动化中就真的没有多少价值。

[1:10:44] Lenny

I am super guilty of that. This is really good advice for me.

我为此真的特别内疚。这对我来说是很好的建议。

[1:10:48] Cat

I am guilty of this too. I've been teaching it I've been teaching co-work to try to get me to inbox zero for Gmail and it has not been it it has been very time consuming and it is definitely not there as you probably realized.

我也为此内疚。我一直在教它，我一直在教 Cowork 试着让我的 Gmail 收件箱为零，但它还没有达到，它一直很费时，它绝对不在那里，正如你可能意识到的。

[1:11:02] Lenny

Yeah, I funny enough that's exactly where my mind goes. I have this uh workflow I set up where every email I get, it looks for things that are spammy, which is just like all these like, "Hey, can I come on your podcast or what about this one?" Like all these things I'm just like, I don't have time for these sorts of things. And I have it categorized it into a folder called spammy. And it's just like it's 95% great, but then there's like, oh wow, I missed an email because it went in there. So this is a good push for me to like I'm going to work on this. I'm going to get it to perfect.

是的，有趣的是，这正是我的想法去的地方。我有个工作流我设置，我得到的每封邮件，它寻找像是垃圾的东西，只是像所有这些像，嘿，我能上你的播客吗，或者，这个怎样样，像所有这些东西，我只是想，我没有时间给这些种类的东西。我有把它分类到一个叫做垃圾的文件夹。它只是像它 95% 做得很好，但然后有像，哇，我错过了一封邮件因为它在那里进去。所以这对我是一个很好的推动去像，我去要在这上工作。我要让它完美。

[1:11:29] Cat

Yeah. We also are working on making the flow for customizing these commands a lot easier because right now I think you have to like know too many concepts. You have to know to define a skill. You have to know to like use this skill and give it feedback. And then you have to know to tell co-work to update the skill based on all the feedback that you gave. And then you also have to know where to read the skill to like make sure that the feedback was incorporated the way that you want. The it's also our job to make this flow really seamless so that it doesn't feel painful to do.

是的。我们也在让自定义这些 command 的流程简单得多，因为现在我想你得知道太多概念。你得知道去定义一个 skill。你得知道去使用这个 skill 并给它反馈。然后你得知道去告诉 Cowork 基于所有你给的反馈去更新这个 skill。然后你还得知道去读这个 skill，去确认反馈被合并你想要的方式。这也是我们的工作让这个流程真的无缝，所以它不觉得痛苦去做。

[1:11:57] Lenny

Amazing. Is there anything else, Cat, you wanted to share? Anything else you wanted to leave listeners with? Anything you wanted to double down on that we haven't already touched on before we get to our very exciting lightning round? I see a lot of people playing around with AI um and building like prototype apps and tinkering with building workflows. I would really push people towards building apps that you're actually using every single day because I think only through that usage are you actually getting the value. Like if you build a prototype app that isn't helping you get more done, then the the AI isn't really adding value to your

太棒了。Cat，还有其他想分享的吗？还有什么想留给听众的话吗？在我们进入超级刺激的闪电轮之前，还有什么想再强调一遍的吗？我看到很多人在玩 AI，开发原型应用，尝试构建工作流。我真的想推动人们开发自己每天实际使用的应用，因为我觉得只有通过真实使用，你才能获得真正的价值。如果你开发的原型应用帮不了你完成更多工作，那么 AI 实际上就没有为你的

[1:12:37] Cat

to your day.

一天增加价值。

[1:12:38] Cat

And there's only so much you learn from that when it's like, okay, I just one-shoted something. Oh, that's cool. And then you never come back to it. Like you're not learning a lot

你从中学到的东西有限，就像那样，我快速做了某件事，哇，很酷。然后你再也没回来用过它。你学不到太多东西

[1:12:45] Cat

and you're not getting like much leverage from it

也得不到什么实际的杠杆效应。

[1:12:47] Lenny

and actual leverage. Yeah, that's such a good point.

实际的杠杆效应。对，这真是个好点子。

[1:12:49] Cat

I also think there's a lot of people who spend a lot of time like customizing their workflow. So there's like I think there's like two ends of the spectrum. One is like people who never customize or never build automations, but there's like this polar opposite end of people who like obsess around customizing their tool like adding a ton of skills and MCPs and um these like workflow improvements and I think sometimes that can even distract from your core goal of like launching some product or building some feature. I think there's a lot of fun in customizing and we definitely want to make our products very hackable so that you you can make it work really well for you, but there is a limit to how much it's useful. Um, and I think there there's a camp of people who maybe spend so much time customizing that they're like not sleeping and not doing the like core task that they originally set out to do.

我也觉得很多人花很多时间定制工作流。所以我觉得存在两个极端。一个是从不定制或从不构建自动化的人，但另一个极端是那些对定制工具特别着迷的人，比如添加大量 skills 和 MCPs 以及各种工作流改进的人。我觉得有时这甚至可能分散你的注意力，让你无法专注于核心目标，比如发布某个产品或构建某个功能。定制很有趣，我们确实想让我们的产品非常易于扩展，这样你就能让它非常适合你，但定制的有用程度是有限度的。我觉得有一群人可能花了太多时间在定制上，以至于他们没有睡觉，也没有做他们最初计划要做的核心任务。

[1:13:41] Lenny

I see a lot of that on Twitter just like look at my setup. It's out of control. It's so optimized. Then what are you what what are you actually building? No, but my setup is so awesome. Like it gets so much done.

我在 Twitter 上看到很多这样的情况，就是看我的设置，完全疯了，优化过度了。那你到底在开发什么呢？不过我的设置太牛了。它能完成这么多工作。

[1:13:52] Cat

I think the simple setups actually work better.

我觉得简单的设置其实效果更好。

[1:13:56] Lenny

Sl powerup getting take level up a little bit.

简单的增强，获得升级提升。

[1:13:58] Cat

Yeah. Yeah.

是的，是的。

[1:13:59] Lenny

There's this Karpathy tweet that just uh came out yesterday where he talked about this divide that's interesting between people that tried chatbt claw back in the day. it was like okay and they're like nah this is this is terrible and they kind of gave up on like what AI could do for them and they're just like so cynical of like no way it's not actually that big of a deal and then there's people that are using it to code essentially who see the full intense power of it and how good it is and people on both sides don't understand the other side and why they like how much they how they see the world and so your advice is really good here just like actually use it for real things and see how good it actually has gotten

有一条 Karpathy 的推文刚在昨天发布，他讨论了一个有趣的分裂。在那些当年尝试过 ChatGPT 和 Claude 的人之间。就像好吧，他们就像不，这太糟糕了，他们放弃了 AI 能为他们做什么，他们对此就是非常愤世嫉俗，认为不可能这真的没那么大的事儿。然后有人用它来编码，他们看到了它的全部巨大力量，以及它有多好。这两方面的人都不理解另一方，不理解他们为什么这样看待世界，你的建议在这里真的很好，就是实际上为真实的事情使用它，看看它到底有多好。

[1:14:38] Cat

yeah I think The big shift is that the 2024 generation of products were chatbased and the quad code generation of products is action-based. And the like big aha moment people have is when quad can just like do things on your behalf. It is it is an amazing feeling to know that the agent is capable of doing so much more than telling you what to do. Like the agent can actually just do it itself. And when people feel that, I I think that's the eye opening moment.

对，我觉得最大的转变是 2024 年那代产品是基于聊天的，现在这一代产品是基于行动的。人们的那个大 aha 时刻就是当 Claude 可以代表你做事的时候。那感觉太棒了，知道这个 agent 能做远远超过告诉你该做什么的事。agent 实际上可以自己就干了。当人们感受到这一点时，我觉得那就是这个开眼的时刻。

[1:15:10] Lenny

Shout out uh Chrome extension, the cloud called Chrome extension, which you can just watch it doing stuff and you'd be like, "Fill out this form for me and like, all right, here I go."

要大声喊出 Chrome extension，Claude 的这个 Chrome extension，你可以就看着它做事情，你就会像'帮我填这个表单吧'，好的，它就去干了。

[1:15:18] Cat

Exactly.

完全同意。

[1:15:19] Lenny

Okay. Uh anything else before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

好的。在我们进入超级刺激的闪电轮之前，还有什么吗？

[1:15:22] Cat

No, let's do it.

没有，让我们开始吧。

[1:15:24] Lenny

Let's do it. Uh Kat, I've got five questions for you. Welcome to the lightning round. There's this animation that place. I have to make sure to say it. Uh are you ready?

好的。Cat，我给你准备了五个问题。欢迎来到闪电轮。这里有个动画效果播放。我得确保说到这一点。你准备好了吗？

[1:15:32] Cat

I'm ready. First question, what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

我准备好了。第一个问题，有两三本书是你最经常推荐给其他人的？

[1:15:38] Cat

I really like how Asia works. Um, it's a story about economic development and what are like the policies and uh governments that make um long lasting successful economies. The other books that I'm really into are the technology trap. So, this is actually about the past few technology revolutions. So the industrial revolution and the computer revolution and how this has affected uh workers. The the reason that I really like this is because I think we there's a lot we can learn from history to make sure that this transition goes well. And um maybe on like a fun note, I really like paper menagerie. Um it's just like a book of short stories about like coming of age and AI and um just like self-discovery. Favorite recent movie or TV show you have really enjoyed?

我真的很喜欢《亚洲如何运作》。嗯，这是关于经济发展的故事，关于哪些政策和政府能创造长期的成功经济。我真的很喜欢的其他书是《技术陷阱》。这实际上是关于过去几个技术革命的。比如工业革命和计算机革命，以及这如何影响了工人。我真的喜欢这个的原因是我觉得我们可以从历史中学到很多东西，以确保这次转变进展顺利。嗯，也许从有趣的角度，我真的很喜欢《纸质动物园》。它就是一本关于成长、AI 和自我发现的短篇故事集。你最近看过什么最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

[1:16:34] Cat

I really like Drive to Survive. There's no like deeper meaning to it. I just there's just something very satisfying about people being so obsessed with like a singular engineering goal and just like the purity of their pursuit. Um, and I also really love Free Solo, which is about Alex Honold um, climbing El Capetan without a harness. And I think similarly, it's just such a pure achievement to be able to climb this extremely challenging, dangerous route and to be able to have the mental focus to do it knowing that if you make a single mistake, you die.

我真的喜欢《衝出生天》。没有什么更深层的含义。我就是，有什么东西让人对追求某个奇异的工程目标感到如此着迷，以及他们追求的纯粹性。嗯，我也特别喜欢《徒手攀岩》，讲的是 Alex Honold 不系绳索攀登 El Capitan。我想同样，这是一个如此纯粹的成就，能够攀爬这条极其困难、危险的路线，并具有足够的精神专注力，知道如果你犯一个错误，你就会死。

[1:17:17] Lenny

It's insane. Yeah, that movie is out of control. And it's interesting how these relate in some way to the work you do.

这太疯狂了。对，那部电影控制力超强。有趣的是这些在某种方式上与你的工作相关联。

[1:17:22] Cat

I actually am a rock climber. Um I first watched Free Solo before I climbed rocks and so I thought it was impressive. I didn't understand how impressive it was. It's one of the rare movies where like the more you know about it, the more you're you're blown away by how insane this is. Like the kinds the kinds of moves he's doing on the wall are things that like I don't think I will ever be able to do in my lifetime if it were set in a gym like one ft off the ground

我实际上是个攀岩者。我在开始爬岩石之前看过《徒手攀岩》，所以那时我觉得它很令人印象深刻。我没有理解它有多令人印象深刻。这是少有的那种电影，你对它了解得越多，你就越被他有多疯狂所震撼。他在岩壁上做的那种动作，那是我觉得在我的一生中即使放在体育馆里离地面一英尺的地方都可能永远做不到的那种动作

[1:17:47] Cat

with a rope.

带着绳子。

[1:17:48] Lenny

With a rope.

带着绳子。

[1:17:50] Lenny

Did you see the documentary on that other guy, the younger one that went on like ice mountain?

你看过那个关于另一个人的纪录片吗，就是那个年轻的家伙，他上过冰山的那个？

[1:17:54] Cat

I did. That one was very sad.

看过。那个很悲伤。

[1:17:56] Cat

But that was that was wild. Okay. Uh favorite product you recently discovered that you really love? The product that is like most changed my life outside of cloud products is probably Whimo. Like I'm a diehard Whimo user. Um use it twice a day, get to and from work. So the two things that I really like about it are one, I don't feel bad if a Whimo is waiting for me. And so I feel like I feel less pressure to be right at the curbside the moment it arrives. And the second thing is I feel like it lets me be a bit more productive. Um, when when I'm in the car with another human, I I typically try not to like do any work calls. I I feel a little rude if I'm like on my laptop the whole time. But one thing I really appreciate about the Whimo is I can call into a work call. I'm not worried about someone overhearing me. I'm not worried about, hey, is this like rude? Am I talking too loud? Do I need to tell ask someone to like change the music? And so this has been like I feel like this has given me back like 30 minutes every day.

但那真的很疯狂。好的。你最近发现并真的很喜欢的最喜欢的产品是什么？除了 Claude 产品之外，最改变我生活的产品可能是 Whim。我是个 Whim 铁粉。一天用两次，上下班都用。我真的喜欢它的两个点。第一，如果 Whim 在等我，我不会觉得不好意思。所以我感觉到的压力就少了很多，不用非得在它到达路边的那一刻就立刻在那儿。第二个是我觉得它让我能更有生产力。当我和另一个人一起在车里时，我通常试图不做任何工作通话。如果我整个时间都在笔记本电脑上，我觉得有点不礼貌。但我真的很欣赏 Whim 的一个地方是我可以接入一个工作通话。我不担心别人会听到我。我不担心，嘿，这像是不礼貌吗？我说话太大声了吗？我需要让某人改变音乐吗？所以这对我来说就像给了我，我感觉这给了我每天 30 分钟。

[1:18:55] Lenny

All these second order effects of of technology. It's so interesting.

所有这些技术的二阶效应。太有趣了。

[1:18:59] Lenny

Yeah. I always thought Whimo needed to be priced lower than Uber and Lyft to succeed, but actually I'm like very happy to pay a 2x premium for it.

对。我一直以为 Whim 需要定价比 Uber 和 Lyft 低才能成功，但实际上我很乐意支付 2 倍的溢价。

[1:19:06] Cat

I love Whimo. It's just like like once you see it, you're just like, "Wow, this is insane." And and then you get used to it. Like you get in there, you're like, "This is crazy." And then you forget about it.

我超喜欢Claude的这个功能。就是那种，你一旦见过它，你就会说'哇，这简直太疯狂了'。然后你就慢慢习惯了。你开始用它，想着'这真的很狂'，接着你就不再多想了。

[1:19:17] Cat

Totally. And I think it's also changed the vernacular. Like a lot of people at Anthropic love Whimo. And I think in the past you would be like, "Hey, like let's call like blah blah ride share app." And now like everyone's just like, "Okay, is the way here?"

完全同意。我觉得它改变了大家的用词方式。Anthropic很多人都特别喜欢用Claude。以前你可能会说'嘿，我们把这个称为某某某，这个某某某app'。现在大家都会说'好的，这是Claude来处理吧？'

[1:19:30] Lenny

Okay, two more questions. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to in work or in life?

好的，还有两个问题。你有什么人生座右铭是你在工作或生活中经常回想的吗？

[1:19:35] Cat

Just do things.

去做事。

[1:19:37] Lenny

That's right.

没错。

[1:19:38] Cat

I think there's a lot of value in like first principles thinking and if if you like if you know what you're optimizing for and you have like strong first principles, then you can normally deduce what the right like course of action is and be able to clearly articulate that to all the stakeholders and then you should just like do it. Like I think jobs are fake. If you understand the constraints, you can figure out what you can do and then just like try to do it quickly, learn from the mistakes and apologize or fix them if you did something wrong.

我觉得一级原理思维真的很有价值。如果你知道自己在优化什么，而且有扎实的一级原理作为基础，你通常能推导出什么是正确的行动路线，并能清楚地向所有利益相关者阐述这一点，然后你就应该去做。我觉得说实话，工作的很多定义都是虚构的。只要你理解了约束条件，你就能找出你能做什么，然后就尝试快速去做，从错误中学习，如果你做错了什么，就为此道歉或修正。

[1:20:08] Lenny

You you could just do things whoever said that.

你可以去做任何事，不管谁说的。

[1:20:10] Cat

I think it's liberating actually to like tell people this. I think in a lot of companies like roles are very strictly defined like okay this is what the PM does, this is what the designer does, this is what engineer does and then even team scopes are very rigidly defined. So, hey, like this corner of the codebase we touch and this corner like we're not allowed to touch. And I think what just do things lets people do is they feel like empowered to make these decisions, empowered to operate across team boundaries just to like get something done.

我觉得把这个理念告诉别人其实是很解放的。在很多公司里，角色定义得特别严格——好的，PM做这个，设计师做那个，工程师做这个。然后连团队范围都定死了。这个代码区块我们负责，那个区块我们不能碰。但'去做事'这个理念的好处是，它让人们感到被赋权，敢于做决定，敢于跨越团队边界去完成某件事。

[1:20:38] Lenny

That feels like a big important skill to be good at. People call it agency. Just like do the things

这听起来像是一个很重要的技能。人们把它叫做主动性、行动力。就是去做事嘛。

[1:20:46] Cat

bias towards action. All these ways of describing just like you wait for permission.

行动偏好。所有这些描述的都是同一件事——不要等着别人批准。

[1:20:50] Lenny

Yeah. I think this is my favorite reason to work at a startup at some point in your life because like one thing that was like very life-changing for me was actually working at scale when we were 20 people. And so there was just no process and we had like really big problems that we needed to solve. And it it was like I really appreciate Alex and the rest of the team for like empowering me and the rest of the team to just like figure things out without any boundaries for what sales supposed to do, what off supposed to do, what engineer is supposed to do. just like you have all the tools at your disposal. You have some like ambitious hairy problem statement and you can do whatever you need to like get to a good solution.

对。我觉得这也是我最喜欢在某个阶段创业的原因之一，因为对我来说真的改变人生的事，就是在我们公司只有20个人的时候工作的经历。那时候根本没有什么流程，我们面临着一些很大的问题需要解决。我真的很感谢Alex和团队的其他成员，因为他们让我和整个团队有权利自己去想办法，没有任何关于销售应该做什么、运营应该做什么、工程应该做什么的限制。你就拥有了所有的工具，面对一个很有野心、很复杂的问题陈述，你可以做任何必要的事情来找到一个好的解决方案。

[1:21:28] Cat

Like you almost need that experience to build that skill to feel comfortable doing that because a lot of people, you know, they go through school or in college and all these like do the thing we tell you to do and then you will get a good grade. And you have to kind of unlearn that of like, okay, I'm just going to do the thing that needs to be done and even if people think it's dumb, I think it's the right thing to do.

你几乎需要这样的经历来培养这种技能，让自己能够舒适地这样做。因为很多人，他们经历了学校或大学，到处都是'做我们告诉你做的事，然后你就能得到好成绩'。你得慢慢改变这种思维方式，想着'好的，我就去做需要被做的事'，即使别人觉得这很傻，我还是认为这是对的事情。

[1:21:46] Lenny

Yeah. Exactly.

对。完全同意。

[1:21:47] Lenny

Okay. Okay, I actually have two more quick questions. Two more final questions. One is uh when Claude thinks, there's all these I don't know if you call them verbs. What's the term for these things?

好的，我还真的有两个快速问题。最后两个问题。一个是，当Claude在思考时，有这些，我不知道你怎么叫它们，什么是这些东西的术语？

[1:21:55] Cat

Uh thinking words.

呃，思考词汇。

[1:21:56] Lenny

Thinking words. And interestingly, these all leaked in the source code. Uh is it Do you have a favorite thinking word?

思考词汇。有趣的是，这些都被泄露在源代码里了。那么，你有最喜欢的思考词汇吗？

[1:22:03] Cat

I really like manifesting. It's also like the sticker that I I have on my favorite.

我特别喜欢'manifesting'这个词。我还在我最喜欢的地方贴了个这个词的贴纸。

[1:22:10] Lenny

Clearly the winner. Okay, final question. Asked Boris this too. with AGI potentially arriving in our lifetime when you don't potentially have to work, what are you going to do? What are you going to do with all your time?

显然是赢家了。好的，最后一个问题。我也问过Boris。考虑到AGI可能在我们这一生出现，到那时你可能就不用工作了，你打算做什么？你会用所有的时间做什么？

[1:22:23] Cat

I think it it will take a long time for AGI to diffuse across society. So, I think the immediate thing is actually just like helping bring the world along. I think my like non-serious answer for after this happens is I'll probably just do a lot of rock climbing. I'll probably just like live in some I'll probably move to like Fountain Blue and just like live amongst 10,000 boulders and climb for a bit. There's also so many books I want to read that my my goal is to be able to read one or two books a week and I'm currently at probably like 0.5. The backlog is pretty big. I think there's just like so much we can learn from history and so much that I don't understand as well as I would love to. Like I don't know anything about physics and or like robotics or like any hardware or like aerospace or there's just so many interesting topics. So I I'm excited to learn even even knowing that the AI will already know it.

我觉得AGI在整个社会中扩散需要很长时间。所以我想最直接的事就是帮助世界跟上步伐。我对于这件事发生后的不太认真的回答是，我可能会经常去攀岩。我可能会搬到Fontainebleau，就生活在一万块岩石中间，爬一段时间。还有很多我想读的书，我的目标是能一周读一两本书，现在我大概是一周半本。待读清单特别长。我觉得历史里有太多东西值得学，太多我想理解但还没有充分理解的东西。比如我根本不懂物理、不懂机器人技术、不懂硬件、不懂航空航天，有太多有趣的话题。所以我很期待去学习，即使我知道AI已经懂了。

[1:23:26] Lenny

Cat, this was amazing. You're awesome. Two follow questions. Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and just follow what you're up to? And how can listeners be useful to you?

Cat，这太棒了。你太酷了。有两个跟进问题。如果人们想要联系你或者关注你的动态，他们可以在哪里找到你？而且听众有什么方式可以对你有帮助？

[1:23:35] Cat

The best way to reach out is I am Catwoo on Twitter. Um, feel free to like tag me in things. Feel free to DM me. I read all all my DMs. I don't always respond to every single one, but I will read them all. And then the thing that is most helpful is tell us where cloud code and co-work aren't working well for you. We we are very grateful for the amount of positive feedback. But the things that we thrive on is edge cases, errors, like specific tasks that we can reproduce where quad code or co-work fail. Because if you're able to share that with us and we're able to reproduce it, then this is something that we're able to actively improve for our next generations of models and uh for our next harnesses.

最好的联系方式是在Twitter上找我，我是@Catwu。欢迎在各种内容中提到我，也欢迎给我发DM。我会读我的所有DM。我不是每一条都会回复，但我会把它们都读了。然后最有帮助的事，就是告诉我们Claude Code和Co-work在哪些地方不太适用。我们对收到的大量正面反馈感到非常感谢。但对我们来说最珍贵的是那些边界情况、错误，那些我们能重现的具体任务，Claude Code或Co-work在这些任务中失效的情况。因为如果你能把这些分享给我们，而我们能重现它，那这就是我们能在下一代模型或下一代工具中积极改进的地方。

[1:24:25] Lenny

Extremely cool. everyone on people on Twitter are not shy with sharing this feedback. So, so keep it coming.

真的太酷了。Twitter上的人们在分享反馈时从来不会羞涩。所以请继续提反馈。

[1:24:30] Cat

Share us share, please, please share the problems that you're having with us.

请分享给我们，拜托了，拜托了，把你们遇到的问题分享给我们。

[1:24:34] Lenny

Yeah. And it's really cool to see all you your team being on so active on Twitter and responding to people and so so like what I'm hearing like this is actually stuff you guys actually see and react to. So

对。看到你和你的团队在Twitter上这么活跃，这么积极地回应大家，真的很酷。所以我听到的是，这些实际上都是你们能看到并作出反应的东西。

[1:24:44] Cat

yeah, we appreciate everyone being so engaged with us. Um it gives the team a ton of energy. We we have this channel of like user love and so whenever you guys share a success story we post it there and whenever you guys share like issues with our product we put it into our feedback channel. That way our broader team is able to act on it.

对，我们很感谢大家和我们这么有engagement。这给团队带来了很多能量。我们有这样一个'用户热爱'的频道，每次你们分享成功故事，我们就会把它贴在那里，每次你们反映我们产品的问题，我们就会把它放进反馈频道。这样我们的更广泛的团队就能够对它采取行动。

[1:25:02] Lenny

That is so cool to know. Thanks for sharing that. Well C, thank you so much for being here.

知道这一点真的太酷了。感谢你的分享。好的，Cat，非常感谢你能来。

[1:25:07] Cat

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你邀请我。

[1:25:09] Lenny

Bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennispodcast.com. See you in the next episode.

各位再见。非常感谢大家的收听。如果你觉得这期内容很有价值，可以在Apple Podcasts、Spotify或你喜欢的播客应用上订阅本节目。另外，请给我们一个评分或留下评论，这能帮助其他听众找到播客。你可以在lennispodcast.com上找到所有过往的剧集或了解更多关于这个节目的信息。下期见。