How Netflix builds a culture of excellence | Elizabeth Stone (CTO)

频道: Lenny's Podcast
视频: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XgU6T4DalY
原文语言: en
统计: 共 47 轮

[0:00]

we can't really have any of the other aspects of the culture including cander learning seeking excellence and Improvement freedom and responsibility if you don't start with high Talent density and in some ways it's very reflective of Reed Hastings as founder of Netflix so when he founded Netflix and grew the company over time it was with a belief that there could be a different approach to build building a company that would make it a place that people thrived in and loved being and would feel different than other places both in the quality of that Talent density but even more importantly like the Excellence and the outcomes and that that's where people would derive a lot of sense of fulfillment so it it's very deeply seated at Netflix from its original days and in order to do that you have to really hold yourself to a lot of stuff that doesn't feel like natural human behavior today my guest is Elizabeth Stone Elizabeth is Chief technology officer at Netflix and as far as I can tell the first Economist to ever be named CTO at a Fortune 500 company prior to this role Elizabeth was vice president of data and insights before Netflix she was vice president of science at Lyft coo at Nuna a Trader at Marl Lynch and an economist at analyst group in our conversation we cover a lot of ground we talk about how an economics background has helped Elizabeth in her career and why she expects to see more

如果不是从高人才密度（high talent density）起步，文化的其他方面——candor（坦诚）、学习、追求卓越与持续改进、自由与责任——其实一样都立不住。某种程度上，这非常能体现 Reed Hastings 作为 Netflix 创始人的想法。他创办 Netflix 并一路把公司做大，背后是一个信念：建一家公司可以有另一种路径，能让这里成为一个人们真正如鱼得水、待着就喜欢的地方，一个跟别处不一样的地方——不只是人才密度的质量不一样，更重要的是那种卓越和最终拿到的结果不一样，而人的成就感恰恰就来自这里。所以这件事从 Netflix 最早的日子起就深深扎在骨子里。而要做到这一点，你得对自己提很多要求，其中很多要求其实并不符合人的天性。今天的嘉宾是 Elizabeth Stone。Elizabeth 是 Netflix 的 CTO，而且据我所知，她是财富 500 强公司里第一位经济学家出身的 CTO。在这个职位之前，她是 Netflix 的数据与洞察副总裁；来 Netflix 之前，她做过 Lyft 的科学副总裁、Nuna 的 COO、Merrill Lynch 的交易员，还在 Analysis Group 当过经济学家。这次对话我们聊的面很广：聊了经济学背景如何帮到了 Elizabeth 的职业发展，也聊了她为什么预计会看到更多

[1:38]

economists rise in the ranks of tech companies she shares some of her secret sauce for Rising so quickly at so many companies so consistently we delve into Netflix's very unique culture of high Talent density radical cander and freedom and responsibility we also talk about the structure that Netflix has for their data and user research teams which she believes is a part of Netflix's secret to success we also get into what biking and triathlons have taught Elizabeth about life and how she brings that into her work and so much more a huge thank you to Ali Ral for introducing me to Elizabeth if you enjoy this podcast don't forget to subscribe and follow this podcast in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube this helps tremendously and I really appreciate it with that I bring you Elizabeth Stone after a short word from our sponsors this episode is brought to you by vanta when it comes to insur in your company has top-notch security practices things get complicated fast now you can assess risk secure the trust of your customers and automate compliance for sock 2 ISO 2701 Hippa and more with a single platform vanta V's Market leading trust management platform helps you continuously monitor compliance alongside reporting and tracking risk plus you can save hours by completing security questionnaires with Vana AI join thousands of global companies that use V to automate evidence collection

经济学家在科技公司里晋升到高位。她还分享了自己在这么多家公司都能一路快速上升、而且如此稳定地做到这一点的一些独门心得。我们深入聊了 Netflix 非常独特的文化——高人才密度、radical candor（彻底坦诚）、自由与责任。我们也谈到 Netflix 的数据团队和用户研究团队是怎么组织的，她认为这正是 Netflix 成功秘诀的一部分。我们还聊到骑行和铁人三项教会了 Elizabeth 哪些人生道理、她又是怎么把这些带进工作里的，以及更多内容。非常感谢 Ali 把 Elizabeth 介绍给我。如果你喜欢这档播客，别忘了在你常用的播客 app 或 YouTube 上订阅并关注，这对我们帮助特别大，我真心感激。那么，先听一段赞助商的口播，之后就把 Elizabeth Stone 请上场。本期节目由 Vanta 赞助。要确保你的公司有一流的安全实践，事情很快就会变得复杂。现在你可以在一个平台上完成风险评估、赢得客户信任，并把 SOC 2、ISO 27001、HIPAA 等一系列合规工作自动化。Vanta 这个市场领先的信任管理平台，能帮你持续监控合规状态，同时做好报告和风险跟踪。此外，用 Vanta AI 填安全问卷还能替你省下大量时间。全球已有数千家公司在用 Vanta 自动化证据收集、

[3:05]

unify risk management and streamline Security reviews get $1,000 off vanta when you go to v.com Lenny that's vana.com SL Lenny let me tell you about a product called sber the all-in-one Communications API platform designed for both web and mobile apps in a world saturated with multi-channel communication product teams are just discovering the effectiveness of inapp communication with sen bird businesses can Elevate their inapp experience with decluttered and branded communication featuring AI powered chat Bots one-way messages chat video calls and live stream capabilities all tailored for Commerce marketing and top tier support forward-thinking companies such as hinge patreon Yahoo Accolade and more use senir to build inapp communication experiences that drive engagement conversion and retention Ina communication has the highest conversion highest engagement and highest satisfaction of any communication Channel and when it comes to investing in this channel trust sber to take your inep communication experience to the next level start today with sen Bird's free plan and as a listener of Lenny's podcast you'll get an additional 2 months of unlimited usage and access to all premium features including creating your very own generative AI chatbot visit send bird.com Lenny to begin your your free Journey that's sg.com Lenny Elizabeth thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast

统一风险管理、简化安全审查流程。访问 vanta.com/lenny 可立减 1000 美元，也就是 vanta.com 斜杠 Lenny。再给你介绍一款产品，叫 Sendbird——一个专为 Web 和移动端应用打造的一体化通信 API 平台。在这个多渠道沟通已经饱和的世界里，产品团队才刚刚发现应用内沟通到底有多好用。有了 Sendbird，企业可以把应用内体验提升一个档次：界面清爽、带自有品牌，还支持 AI 驱动的聊天机器人、单向消息、聊天、视频通话和直播能力，全部针对电商、营销和顶级客户支持做了适配。Hinge、Patreon、Yahoo、Accolade 等有前瞻性的公司都在用 Sendbird 打造能拉动参与、转化和留存的应用内沟通体验。在所有沟通渠道里，应用内沟通的转化率最高、参与度最高、满意度也最高。而当你要在这个渠道上投入时，就把它交给 Sendbird，把你的应用内沟通体验带到新的高度。今天就从 Sendbird 的免费套餐开始，作为 Lenny's Podcast 的听众，你还能额外获得 2 个月的无限用量以及所有高级功能的使用权，包括打造你自己的生成式 AI 聊天机器人。访问 sendbird.com/lenny 开启你的免费之旅，也就是 sendbird.com 斜杠 Lenny。Elizabeth，非常感谢你来，欢迎做客本节目。

[4:40]

thank you thank you for having me so when we booked this conversation you were VP of data and Netflix and since then you got a promotion you're now the CTO of Netflix which feels significantly more fancy question for you what is life like now that you are CTO versus vpf data how is it most different I'm imagining more meetings I would say the biggest thing that changed is probably the amount of context switching and the degree to which I feel behind or I have a lot to learn and I felt like I had a lot to learn in the vpa data and insights role that I was in before in park because we cover a lot of different areas of the business and there's always people to learn from but the engineering organization just takes that to a 100 basically so more people to get to know more problem spaces aspects of technical expertise that I'm just not as deeply familiar with um and yeah a lot more meetings I imagine many higher Stakes meetings as well yes so thankfully not a lot of meetings at Netflix feel like now you're really in this scary room but it does feel like the role has more consequence which is actually an exciting thing kind of along the lines of what you just talked about being a CTO your background is actually unusual you're a trained Economist you got a PhD in economics and from what I can tell you were the first CTO of a Fortune 500 company that is an economist trained in economics first of all is that true I

谢谢，谢谢你邀请我。我们约这次对话的时候，你还是 Netflix 的数据 VP，之后你升职了，现在是 Netflix 的 CTO，听起来气派多了。想问你：当上 CTO 之后的生活，跟做数据 VP 的时候比是什么样的？最大的不同在哪儿？我猜会多很多。要我说，变化最大的大概是上下文切换的频率，以及那种「我落后了」「我有一大堆东西要学」的感觉有多强。其实在之前的数据与洞察 VP 岗位上，我也一直觉得要学的东西很多，部分原因是我们覆盖业务的很多不同领域，永远有人值得你学。但工程组织基本上是把这件事直接拉满到 100 了。所以要认识的人更多、要接触的问题域更多，还有很多技术专长的方面是我并不那么熟悉的。嗯，还有就是——会确实多了很多。我猜利害关系更大的会议也多了不少吧？是的。不过还好，Netflix 的会大多不会让你觉得「我这下真进到一个吓人的房间里了」。但确实能感觉到这个岗位的分量更重了，而这其实是件让人兴奋的事。顺着你刚才说的当 CTO 这个话题——你的背景其实挺不寻常的，你是科班出身的经济学家，拿的是经济学博士。据我所知，你是财富 500 强公司里第一位经济学出身的 CTO。首先，这是真的吗？我

[6:13]

don't know if that's I think that's true but you tell me I have not checked the list that was one of the things I did not do after getting the title I might be unusual I've heard a lot of feedback on that so I don't know if I'm the one and only but I will definitely it's probably unusual yeah so I guess the question is just do you think this is an anomaly and going to continue to be really rare do you think this is some we're going to see more at tech companies and generally do you think tech companies should hire more economists yes to the last question that's the easiest of it but one of the things I observed even with the focus on data science where I've been deeper for a period of time is that economics is a flavor of data science so it it's a set of tech technical skills for sure it's a way of framing certain problems or solving challenges and so when I was first switching from economics into Tech it was before there was a lot of sort of the frenzy around data science that we've seen more recently and it was harder to make that argument that economics is a flavor of data science and maybe complimentary to other versions of data science and I feel more strongly about that now that I've seen it up close and so maybe by extension I would say just like I think data science can be helpful for a lot of different problems that you might not immediately think oh this is something that we

也不确定是不是……我觉得应该是真的，但这得你告诉我。我没去查过那个名单——这是我拿到头衔之后没做的事情之一。我可能确实算不寻常，这方面我收到过不少反馈，所以我不知道自己是不是独一份，但大概率是挺少见的。对。那我的问题就是：你觉得这只是个个例、以后还会一直非常罕见，还是说我们会在科技公司里看到更多这样的人？以及总体上，你觉得科技公司应该多招经济学家吗？最后那个问题答案是「是」，那是里面最好答的。有一点是我观察到的——哪怕在数据科学这个我深耕过一段时间的领域里也是如此：经济学其实是数据科学的一个流派。它当然是一套技术技能，也是一种给某类问题搭框架、解难题的方法。我最早从经济学转到科技行业的时候，还没到后来大家对数据科学这么狂热的阶段，那时候要论证「经济学是数据科学的一个流派、而且可能和其他版本的数据科学互补」是更难的。而现在近距离看过之后，我对这一点的感受反而更强烈了。由此往下延伸，我想说的是：就像我觉得数据科学能帮上很多不同的问题——很多问题你第一反应根本不会想到「哦，这是我们

[7:41]

should bring data to I think that economics is generally valuable for a lot of different challenges and it's a useful perspective to add to things especially in a business context and especially in how we want to simplify problems in a way that makes them feel tractable so I feel like that's been a benefit to me to have had that type of formal training and then bring that perspective or way of thinking to different roles and so I I don't know that many people at Netflix think of me as an economist but I I find it comes out in the way I think about things so to the extent that that's true generally I think it's useful in a lot of companies and I feel like even since I made the switch towards Tech I've seen it become much much more common to think about the value of having Economist on teams just to pull on that threat a little bit more is there something very tactical or conrete that you can share that you find helpful with that background that you found helpful in your career other than the Dismal dry science of it all uh so so one example would probably be in an understanding incentives and thinking about unintended consequences and I think that that is true both in terms of internal leadership so being part of a management team that's thinking about how do we clarify priorities or motivate a company or Define the problems we want to solve and then part of it is more externally oriented how do we want to

该拿数据来解的事」——同样地，我觉得经济学对很多不同的难题总体上都有价值，它是一个很有用的视角，尤其是在商业情境里，也尤其是在我们想把问题简化到「看起来可解」的时候。所以我觉得受过这种正规训练、再把这套视角或思维方式带到不同岗位上，对我是有好处的。Netflix 里可能没多少人会把我当成一个经济学家，但我发现它确实体现在我思考问题的方式里。如果这个说法普遍成立，我觉得它在很多公司都用得上。而且我感觉，自从我转到科技行业以来，「团队里有经济学家是有价值的」这种想法已经变得常见太多了。顺着这条线再往下挖一点：除了这门「沉闷的科学」本身之外，有没有什么非常具体、可落地的东西，是你觉得这个背景在你职业生涯里真正帮到你的？嗯，一个例子大概是理解激励机制，以及思考非预期后果。我觉得这一点在对内的领导层面成立——比如作为管理团队的一员，去想我们怎么厘清优先级、怎么激励一家公司、怎么定义我们要解决的问题；另一部分则更偏对外：我们要怎么

[9:19]

think about what Netflix is to Consumers and how we want to think about competition and there can be a rational way of thought which is one version of Economics of like shouldn't rational intelligent people behave in the following way and then there's the well if given certain incentives what might you see that we didn't think was optimal or we weren't expecting to happen but could be a consequence or repercussion here and so I think that that type of framing I don't know if it's Unique to economics in a way you know because it has elements of psychology to it as well um and kind of planning ahead has become really useful for thinking through kind of cause and effect so that has come up in a lot of different spaces in Netflix and in other roles I've been in I was looking at your LinkedIn and looking at your career over the years and it seems like you've had a meteoric rise at four different companies and I'll just walk through them briefly so your first job you went from associate to vice president in three years at the next company Nuna you went from manager of data science to coo in two years at Netflix you went from VP to CTO in three years I think that's really rare I'm curious what is your secret sauce to being so successful at so many places and especially in the context of what advice can you share with folks earlier in their career this is one of those questions that Sparks the reflection that I

去看待 Netflix 对消费者意味着什么、以及怎么看待竞争。这里可以有一种理性人的思路，也就是经济学的一个版本——理性的、聪明的人难道不应该按下面这种方式行事吗？另一种思路则是：如果给定某些激励，你可能会看到什么我们并不认为是最优、或者压根没预料到、但确实可能成为这里的一个后果或连锁反应的东西？我觉得这类框架——我不确定它是不是经济学独有的，某种意义上它也带着心理学的成分——再加上那种提前推演的习惯，对于想清楚因果链条变得非常有用。所以在 Netflix、以及我做过的其他岗位上，这一点在很多不同的场景里都冒出来过。我翻了你的 LinkedIn，看了你这些年的职业轨迹，感觉你在四家不同的公司都实现了火箭式的上升。我简单过一遍：第一份工作，你三年从 associate 做到 vice president；下一家公司 Nuna，你两年从数据科学经理做到 COO；在 Netflix，你三年从 VP 做到 CTO。我觉得这真的非常少见。我很好奇，你在这么多地方都这么成功，秘诀到底是什么？特别是放在这个语境下，你能给职业生涯早期的人什么建议？这是那种会激发出我平时

[10:49]

wouldn't normally do so that's great um I really don't think of it as a secret sauce but maybe I can walk through some of the things that I think Have Been instrumental as you listed that out it's like it sounds like the two to three year point is the real sweet spot um so then maybe there's something about that timeline but I I think some things almost feel trit in how I would say them which is I'm very dedicated to the work and to the teams I'm part of it's been part of who I am for a long time that I give everything I've got to the job that I'm in and I think that dedication and that I get joy out of that has mattered it matters because I enjoy what I'm doing I do the best work I possibly can less so for myself and my own ambition and more so because I I think of myself as being part of a team and so I really need to deliver for that team and I think that framing in my mind and that motivation has helped me in a few fr fronts which is the way in which I build Partnerships with people I work with that I really care about setting other people up for success and being someone that people want to work with so I learn from them they learn from me and we get better outcomes for the business together I have found that part of that is being someone that people can leverage to translate from technical to non-technical and non-technical to technical so that I do think has been a relative advantage in my role so while I

不会去做的反思的问题，所以挺好的。我真的不觉得这算什么秘诀，但我可以过一遍我认为起了关键作用的一些东西。听你这么一条条列出来，感觉两到三年这个节点像是真正的甜蜜点，所以也许这个时间线本身有点讲究。不过我要说的有些东西，说出来几乎有点老生常谈：我对工作、对我所在的团队非常投入。很长时间以来，「把我有的一切都交给我手上这份工作」就是我这个人的一部分。我觉得这种投入、以及我能从中获得快乐，是很重要的。之所以重要，是因为我享受我在做的事，所以我会尽我所能把活儿做到最好——这更少是为了我自己和我个人的野心，更多是因为我把自己看作团队的一员，所以我真的必须为这个团队交付出来。我觉得脑子里的这个框架和这种动机，在几个方面帮到了我：一是我和同事建立伙伴关系的方式——我是真的很在意让别人也能成功，很在意成为一个别人愿意跟他合作的人，这样我从他们身上学、他们从我身上学，我们一起为业务拿到更好的结果。我还发现，这里面有一部分是成为那种别人可以「借力」的人：把技术的东西翻译给非技术的人，把非技术的东西翻译给技术的人。这一点我确实认为是我在岗位上的一个相对优势。所以虽然我

[12:33]

was often sitting in more technically oriented teams a lot of the advancement in my career was to roles that required that type of communication fluency and it grew out of being able to partner with people across the businesses who didn't necessarily have the same background but where we needed to really connect spaces so that we could be more effective and and that was something that I I think really the training for that came from analysis group where it was a very quantitative set of work that we had to find a way to communicate to judges and juries for economic cases so that was something that was trained in other roles and I think I've been able to leverage I'm a relatively introverted only child so I observe a lot uh which means that I learn from other people uh and in each of these roles I have tried really hard to watch what other people are doing think about like how could I learn something from them whether it's the thing that I want to be able to do myself or it's the thing that I think oh that doesn't quite fit or feel authentic with my style and I do a lot of that introspection so I I have been surrounded by amazing people in all these roles and I have a feeling that I learned a lot by osmosis and observation and then have been able to leverage that to be stronger in the roles I was sitting in so I took a few notes here so a few things you mentioned is just like dedication essentially working really

常常待在更偏技术的团队里，但我职业上的很多次晋升，去的都是需要这种沟通流畅度的岗位。这个能力是从跟业务各条线的人合作中长出来的——那些人背景不一定和我一样，但我们必须真正把各自的领域连起来，才能更有效率。而我觉得这方面真正的训练来自 Analysis Group：那是一套非常量化的工作，我们得想办法把它讲给法官和陪审团听，用在经济类案件上。所以这是在别的岗位上被训练出来、后来我一直能拿来用的东西。我是个相对内向的独生女，所以我观察得很多，这意味着我从别人身上学。在这几段经历里，我每一次都很努力地去看别人在做什么，去想我能从他们身上学到什么——不管是那种我自己也想做到的事，还是那种我会想「哦，这个不太合适、跟我的风格不太搭」的事。我做了大量这种自省。我在这些岗位上一直被很棒的人包围着，我感觉自己通过耳濡目染和观察学到了很多，然后能把这些拿来用，让自己在当下的位置上更强。我这边记了几条笔记。你提到的几点：一是投入，本质上就是真的很努力

[14:06]

hard and taking your work seriously being part of a team and setting other people up for Success translating complex Tech language and problems to non- tech people and then being really good at observing and learning from other people around you is there an example or two that you could share of some of these to make it even more concrete for people like dedication is that just like working many hours uh being part of a team anything along those Lin to make to share a story maybe to help people put this into practice no and it's a good clarification because the dedication piece really isn't about long working hours it's more about how much I care about Excellence I guess so giving it my best in those situations and that might not mean that I work really wild hours or I work weekends or I'm the one who's willing to sacrifice the vacation I've actually tried to avoid setting that as an expectation but more that I hold myself to a very high standard so an example would be especially as I've gotten more senior in roles there can be an expectation that it's okay for other people to wait on me so whether it's like the timing for a meeting or providing input on something or reviewing a document or following through on something I said that I was going to do and I really try to avoid that which means that if someone sends me something I try to be very responsive about it if I know that

地干、并且认真对待自己的工作；二是把自己当作团队的一员，并且让别人也能成功；三是把复杂的技术语言和技术问题翻译给非技术的人；四是非常擅长观察身边的人并向他们学习。这几条你能不能举一两个例子，让大家更有体感？比如「投入」——是不是就是工作时间很长？「团队的一员」也一样，随便挑一条讲个故事，也许能帮大家真的把它用起来。不是的，这个澄清问得好，因为「投入」这一块真的不是长时间加班，更多是我有多在意卓越——在那些场合里拿出我的最好状态。这未必意味着我作息疯狂、周末也上班、或者我是那个愿意牺牲假期的人。事实上我一直刻意避免把这个立成一种预期。它更多是指我对自己有非常高的标准。举个例子：尤其是随着我的职位越来越高，会出现一种默认预期——别人等我是没关系的。不管是开会的时间安排、给某件事提意见、审阅一份文档，还是兑现我说过要做的事，我都很努力避免变成那样。这意味着如果有人发东西给我，我会尽量回得非常及时；如果我知道

[15:51]

I said I'm going to do something I follow through on it in the timeline that I said I was going to do if I have a meeting I try to be on time to that meeting and those are all flavors of dedication to the work that show up and oh it seems like Elizabeth works really hard but the motivation factor is other people are relying on me and I want to show up for them and so that's when I say dedication and it's related to the second Point around showing up well for the team those would all be examples of I feel urgency in responding to people and doing high quality work for the other parts of technical to non-technical I think a great example is actually a very timely one at Netflix which is we are making strides to offer live content types so Live Events live TV shows we announced this week that we're going to be hosting WWE starting later this year and early next year 2025 that is easier said than done done I know that there's a lot of entertainment companies that have live content but Netflix has really been in the streaming content business so live content is something new for us and it's something that's going to require a really close partnership between our content organization and our products and Technology organization because there's a Content strategy to it there's a business strategy there's a technology strategy to it and a big part of my role is can I explain how we're going to

我说了要做一件事，就会按自己承诺的时间点做完；有会议，我就尽量准时到。这些都是「投入」的不同表现形式，落到外人眼里就成了「Elizabeth 好像特别拼」，但我真正的动力是：有人在指望我，我想对得起他们。所以我说的 dedication（投入）是这个意思，它跟第二点——为团队交付到位——是连在一起的。这些都属于同一类：我对回应别人这件事有紧迫感，也要求自己交出高质量的活儿。至于打通技术与非技术这部分，Netflix 眼下正好有个特别应景的例子：我们正在往直播类内容上发力，比如 live events（现场活动）、直播节目。这周我们刚宣布，今年晚些时候到明年初、也就是 2025 年，会开始承接 WWE。这事说起来容易做起来难。我知道很多娱乐公司都有直播内容，但 Netflix 一直做的是流媒体点播，所以直播对我们是全新的东西，需要内容组织和产品技术组织非常紧密地配合——因为这里面有内容策略，有商业策略，也有技术策略。而我这个角色很重要的一部分就是：我能不能讲清楚，我们打算怎么

[17:29]

approach those technical problems in a way that builds confidence with the content team and can I try to understand their content strategy in a way that sets the technical teams up for success and we understand what we need to be able to deliver on here in terms of requirements and I don't think I'd be able to do my current role well if I wasn't able to do that type of translation for something that's going to be a big bet for the business and something we want to invest in jointly and then to set my partners up for success in that so I like I'm going to do everything I can to make sure we deliver well for my content partners because I feel like that's what's best for Netflix in the business amazing examples in terms of Life content I think about uh the Love is Blind I think it was uh for Premiere whatever reunion that my we we got sucked into that show so good job and I think there were some issues with that right that reunion stream yeah that was about a a little less than a year ago now um so the amazing thing about failure is you learn a lot we learned a lot we've taken notes on it and we had a couple successful events after that including the Netflix Cup last October and we've got some exciting events coming up so I think that's something that strengthened us but did reveal that we're tackling a hard problem yeah the Twitter feeds during that love is blind Premier hilarious people are

去解决这些技术问题，讲到让内容团队对我们有信心；另一头，我能不能真正理解他们的内容策略，好让技术团队有条件把事做成，也让我们清楚在需求层面到底要交付什么。如果做不了这种「翻译」的活儿，我觉得自己现在这个岗位就干不好——尤其这是公司要下的一个大赌注、是我们要共同投入的方向，我还得让合作伙伴在这件事上成功。所以我会尽一切努力，确保我们为内容侧的伙伴交付好，因为我觉得那对 Netflix、对这门生意才是最好的。例子举得太好了。说到直播内容，我想到的是《Love is Blind》，好像是首播还是那个重聚特辑——我们全家都被那节目吸住了，干得漂亮。不过那次好像出了点状况吧？就是重聚特辑那场直播。对，那大概是快一年前的事了。失败最妙的地方在于你能学到很多，我们确实学到了不少，也都记下来了。之后我们办了几场很成功的活动，包括去年十月的 Netflix Cup，接下来还有一些让人期待的活动。所以我觉得那次经历让我们变强了，但也确实说明，我们在啃的是一个很难的问题。是啊，那次《Love is Blind》首播时候的 Twitter 时间线，太逗了，大家都

[18:56]

pissed okay and then in terms of the keeping a high bar for yourself I love that I think about a quote that um there's a VC and Muro at Floodgate and she did this interview with Tim Ferris and she shared that her dad always asked her are you doing a world class job with this like are you doing a world-class job with your homework are you doing a world class job with your piano recital and that's the bar that he always had for her and I feel like that's a really good way to think about work and you know life in general if you can yeah uh my mother used to describe to me probably still does though it required more repeating when I was younger that the last 5% is the 5% that really mattered and so it it is that framing of the thing the extra effort you put into something to make it world class or to make it excellent and so I do like to push myself that way and I I hope it sets a good example for other people too and it's very consistent with especially the company cultures that I tend to thrive in where that's the general expectation of the culture so you don't feel like you're doing it alone because then I think you can start to feel frustrated by that I know that there this is a big part of Netflix culture and I want to get into it but before that I'm curious just what that looks like with people that report to you how do you help them level up in this skill of having a really high bar and an example I'll give

气炸了。好。那再说说「对自己保持高标准」这一点，我很喜欢。我想到一句话——Floodgate 有位 VC 叫 Ann Miura-Ko，她上过 Tim Ferriss 的访谈，说她爸爸从小就问她：你这件事做到世界级了吗？你的作业做到世界级了吗？你的钢琴演奏做到世界级了吗？这就是他一直给她定的标准。我觉得这是看待工作、乃至看待人生的一个特别好的角度，只要你做得到。是啊。我妈以前老跟我念叨——大概现在也还在念，只不过我小时候她得重复得更勤——最后那 5% 才是真正要紧的 5%。就是这个说法：你额外投进去的那点力气，才把一件事变成世界级、变成卓越。所以我确实喜欢往这个方向推自己，也希望这能给别人立个好榜样。而且这跟我特别能如鱼得水的那类公司文化非常吻合——在那种文化里，这本来就是大家默认的期待，所以你不会觉得只有自己一个人在死磕；不然人是会开始感到沮丧的。我知道这是 Netflix 文化里很重要的一块，我一会儿想深聊。不过在那之前我好奇：这一点落到你的直接下属身上是什么样？你怎么帮他们把「对自己有高标准」这项本事练上去？我先举个例子

[20:29]

as you think about maybe an example is the way I describ this to my PMS was you want to have this aura that you've got this that if you give Lenny something he's got this he's gonna follow up he's gonna close the loop he's gonna get it done if he can't get it done he'll tell me I feel like this thre red will not disappear you won't drop this ball is there anything that you've learned as a good way to help someone learn this kind of skill and understand why this is so important it shows up for the people who report to me is one part example setting so if I don't do it why would they do it and I treat that very seriously that we should all be held to the same standards and as a second thing I give feedback when it's not up to the standard so I think some one of the things I've observed especially with people on my teams is that the expectations aren't always clear and you can't assume that they're clear if you don't share them and when something's not meeting expectations or really showing up as Excellence I think it's a combination of both giving the feedback on that and being direct about it and being specific about what would it take to get this to the bar that I'm expecting or to show up in the way that I'm expecting and then the third and probably most important thing is help them fill that Gap so that would mean like let's take an example it certainly has happened frequently in many jobs

供你参考。我以前跟我的 PM 们是这么讲的：你要有那种「这事交给我，没问题」的气场。就是说，只要把事情交给 Lenny，他就接住了，他会跟进，他会闭环，他会把它做完；实在做不完，他也会主动告诉我。我心里清楚这根线不会断，你不会把球掉了。关于怎么帮一个人学会这种本事、并且理解它为什么这么重要，你有什么心得吗？在我的直接下属身上，第一块是以身作则。如果我自己都不这么做，凭什么指望他们做？这一点我看得很重——所有人都应该被同一套标准要求。第二件事是，达不到标准的时候我会给反馈。我观察下来，尤其是在我团队里，一个常见问题是期待并不总是清晰的；而你不说出来，就不能假定别人清楚。当某件事没达到期待、或者没有真正做出卓越的样子时，我觉得要两手一起来：给出反馈，而且要直接；同时要具体——到底要怎么做，才能达到我期待的水准、才能是我期待的那个样子。第三点，可能也是最重要的一点，是帮他们把那个差距补上。也就是说——举个例子，这种情形在很多工作里其实经常出现

[22:06]

like a document is okay it's not great it's not going to be easy for people to follow it's not as crisp as it could be there's things that would strengthen it I can both give the feedback on that to make sure like yes it's going to take another round of iteration yes we're going to have to work another week on this and not yeah not be done with it but pushing people to get there and then jumping into the document and helping so I I feel very strongly about and that's kind of what I mean by setting an example of like let's work on this together and then through that help people uplevel themselves so the next time around they kind of they know the expectations and they've had help kind of getting there in the past so that's probably happened a thousand times in my career where I I jump in with both feet because something needs to be better and I think the teams are better for it right afterwards or I hope they are I think that's such a good framework just to kind of mirror back what you said set expectations that the bar is going to be really high and here's what I'm expecting from you give them very specific feedback on where the Gap is and then help them fild that Gap and I think a lot of people may feel this and hear this and are like oh man I I don't want a manager that's like this high of an expectation person and it just feels really stressful but I've had these managers and I feel like they're that's

比如一份文档，还行，但谈不上好——别人读起来不轻松，不够清爽，有些地方明显还能再强化。我可以一边把这些反馈给出去，明确地说：是的，这还得再迭代一轮；是的，我们还得在这上面再花一周；不能就这么算完——推着大家做到位；一边我自己也跳进文档里帮着改。这一点我特别看重，这也正是我说的「以身作则」的意思：来，咱们一起把它弄好。然后通过这个过程，帮人把自己的水平提上去，这样下一次他们既知道期待是什么，也有过被人带着做到位的经验。这种事在我职业生涯里大概发生过一千次了——因为某个东西还不够好，我就两只脚一起跳进去。我觉得团队经历完之后是变得更好的，至少我希望是。我觉得这个框架太好了。我复述一下你说的：先设定期待——标准会很高，我对你的要求是这些；再给非常具体的反馈，指出差距在哪；然后帮他们把差距补上。我想很多人听到这些可能会想：天啊，我可不想要一个期待这么高的老板，感觉压力太大了。但我自己就遇到过这样的老板，我觉得那恰恰是

[23:25]

when I've learned the most and leveled up the most is having someone that gave me had really high expectations and then helped me understand here's where you're not doing as well as you can I know you could do better go back and work on this like I know that sounds annoying but I think in practice it ends up helping you most in your career I imagine you've seen a similar uh result I think so I mean you'd have to ask some of the people on my team so I might look at it differently than look at it it it's a hard skill because it's not always easy to give feedback especially if if you feel like you know someone's put a lot of effort into something and so I give a lot of thought to how I deliver that feedback so it feels like we're on the same team and I'm trying to help them be successful not to help you know encourage failure and that's where I think that third piece of the framework of jumping into help can make people feel like I'm in a safe space my manager wants me to be successful my manager's helping me here and I do often do that behind the scenes so maybe that's another flavor of this which is I don't do it live in the big meeting in front of all the people where the presentation doesn't go very well I do it afterwards where it feels like a safer space to say here's a way this could have gone better let's think about this differently next time so it gives people you know a little Grace you know

我学到最多、成长最快的时候。就是有个人对我抱着非常高的期待，然后帮我看清：这里你没发挥出应有的水平，我知道你能做得更好，回去再改改。我知道这听着挺烦人的，但从实际效果看，我觉得这对你整个职业生涯的帮助是最大的。我猜你也见过类似的结果吧？我想是的。当然你得去问问我团队里的人，他们的看法可能跟我不一样。这是一项挺难的本事，因为给反馈从来都不容易，尤其当你知道对方在这件事上花了很多心血。所以我会花很多心思去琢磨怎么把反馈说出口，让对方感觉我们是一队的、我是想帮他成功，而不是在等着看他出错。这也是为什么我觉得框架里的第三条——主动跳进去帮忙——很关键，它能让人觉得「我是安全的，我老板希望我成功，我老板在帮我」。而且我经常是私下做这件事。这可能算这套做法的另一个侧面：如果某个人在大会上讲得不理想，我不会当场、当着所有人的面说；我会等会后再说，那种场合感觉更安全，可以讲「这里其实可以更好，下次我们换个思路想想」。这样能给人留一点余地，你懂的

[24:54]

and a little bit bit of an ability to absorb that feedback without feeling like it's kind of on a on a stage another thing someone may be feeling when they're hearing this is like oh my God this going to be take me so many hours to just get it to a place Elizabeth is happy with and I know you said that this doesn't mean necessarily many hours you any advice or thoughts on just how to avoid like burnout and working all the time but also keeping this really high bar and high expectations it truly is not about time I even found myself in a meeting earlier today saying if we're clearing the objectives of something it might be that the last 20% of polish on the document is a really bad use of time so if we're going to come together to talk through like quarterly Business Review was the example what were the highlights what were the low lights what were the learnings from the quarter where are there places of misalignment the reason we're doing the quarterly Business Review is to have a really candid conversation about how we think things are going to have a debate about things where maybe we're stuck it's not to have a perfectly Polished document for that conversation so my feedback in that instance would be I would much rather have someone spend the time thinking about what's the conversation we really want to have how do I tee that up not could I spend another 20 hours to make it look like

也让他们有点空间去消化这些反馈，而不会觉得自己被架在台上示众。听到这些，有人可能还会冒出另一种感受：天啊，那我得花多少个小时，才能把东西做到 Elizabeth 满意的程度啊。你刚才也说了，这未必意味着要投入很多时间。关于怎么既避免 burnout（倦怠）和无休止地加班，又保持这么高的标准和期待，你有什么建议或想法吗？真的不是时间的问题。我今天早些时候开会还说到：如果我们对目标已经很清楚了，那把最后 20% 的力气花在打磨文档上，可能是极其糟糕的时间投入。比如我们聚在一起过季度业务回顾（quarterly business review），要谈的是这个季度有哪些亮点、哪些糟心事、学到了什么、哪些地方大家没对齐。我们开季度业务回顾的目的，是就「事情到底进展得怎么样」来一次特别坦诚的对话，是把那些可能卡住的问题拿出来辩一辩，而不是为这场对话配一份完美打磨过的文档。所以那种情况下我的反馈会是：我宁愿一个人把时间花在想清楚「我们真正想聊的是什么、我怎么把这个话头铺开」，而不是「我能不能再花 20 个小时，把它弄得看上去

[26:20]

everything's perfect in this document and so I think in that sense it's it's not just Excellence like you wrote the perfect document I should probably be careful to not use that as the only example but instead we really got to the outcome we wanted to get to because we were thoughtful about it and we put a lot of energy and time and iteration into making sure we got to that outcome and is this examples an example where you gave someone feedback because they spent too much time on the Polish or is this earlier and thinking of the Pyramid of this framework you kind of shareed set expectations give specific feedback help them fill the Gap and then do it in private is this like the expectation setting in this example example or is this like feedback you spend too much time on this this is expectation setting so one of the things in my new role is that there's some practices that the team has had where they're trying to understand are we still going to have those practices what's going to be the same versus different about those things and get an understanding of my expectations so it's great that people ask that question so that I can be clear about oh wait if you're on the last 20% of this polishing the dock I'd rather spend time over here and here's how I would like the conversation to go so we all get something out of it instead of it feeling like it's just a leadership reviewer on my behalf so this in this

这份文档里样样都完美无缺」。所以从这个意义上说，卓越不只是「你写了一份完美的文档」——我大概得注意，别老拿这个当唯一的例子——而是「我们真的拿到了想要的结果，因为我们想得足够周全，也在这上面投入了大量精力、时间和迭代，来确保达成那个结果」。那这个例子，是你因为别人在打磨上花太多时间而给的反馈，还是更靠前的环节？按你刚才分享的那个金字塔框架——设定期待、给具体反馈、帮他们补差距、并且私下来做——这个例子算是「设定期待」，还是算「你在这上面花太多时间了」这种反馈？这是设定期待。我在新岗位上遇到的情况之一是，团队原本有一些既定做法，他们想搞清楚：这些做法还要不要继续？哪些会保持不变、哪些会变？也想摸清我的期待是什么。所以有人主动来问是好事，我就能明确地说：等等，如果你还在做这份文档最后 20% 的打磨，我宁愿你把时间花到这边来；这场对话我希望是这样进行的，这样大家都能有收获，而不是让人感觉只是替我走个领导评审的过场。所以在这个

[27:39]

specific situation it was setting expectations ahead of time so that we can set everyone up for success awesome Okay so we've kind of been talking around this but this is an important part of the Netflix culture so just broadly Netflix has a really special and unique culture even though it's been around for I think over 25 years now it feels like the culture has come up many times there's that initial culture deck that came out that kind of blew everyone's Minds there's a recent book no rules rules think it's called and it feels like Netflix has done a great job at maintaining its culture and it feels to me there's kind of these three important elements and maybe there's more one is uh very high Talent density and a focus on high performers two is cander and being really direct and then three is giving people freedom and responsibility and getting rid of useless processes like time and things like that so maybe just to dive into that first one of high Talent density which and high and this focus on high performance I guess the question there is just like how does this actually look what does this look like in Netflix and imagine part of it as hiring part of it is performance reviews and then just why is it so important why is this such a focus at Netflix what is the what is what happens when you have such a high Talent density it's just so intrinsic to who Netflix is as a company and in

具体情形里，是提前设定期待，好让所有人都有条件把事情做成。太棒了。好，我们其实一直在这个话题周围打转，但它是 Netflix 文化里很重要的一部分。总体来说，Netflix 有一套非常特别、非常独一无二的文化。虽然公司到现在应该有 25 年以上了，这个文化好像被反复提起：最早那份文化 deck（文化幻灯片）一出来，把所有人都震住了；最近还有本书，好像叫《No Rules Rules》（《不拘一格》）。感觉 Netflix 在维系自己的文化上做得非常好。在我看来大概有这么三个重要元素，也许还不止：一是极高的 talent density（人才密度），以及对高绩效者的重视；二是 candor（坦诚），说话非常直接；三是给人自由和责任，砍掉那些没用的流程——比如休假天数之类的规定。那我们先深挖第一点，高人才密度以及这种对高绩效的重视。我的问题是：这在实际中到底长什么样？在 Netflix 内部是怎么运作的？我猜一部分体现在招聘上，一部分体现在绩效评估上。还有就是，为什么它这么重要？为什么 Netflix 这么看重这一点？当你拥有这么高的人才密度时，会发生什么？这一点太深地嵌进 Netflix 这家公司的底色里了，而且从

[28:56]

some ways it's very very reflective of Reed Hastings as founder of Netflix so when he founded Netflix and grew the company over time it was with a belief that there could be a different approach to building a company that would make it a place that people thrived in and loved being and would feel different than other places both in the quality of that Talent density but even more importantly like the Excellence and the outcomes and that that's where people would derive a lot of sense of fulfillment so it it's very deeply seated at Netflix from its original days and a big piece of that Talent density is definitely hiring so who are the people coming in and joining the team but a lot of it is we can't really have any of the other aspects of the culture including cander learning seeking excellence and Improvement freedom and responsibility if you don't start with high Talent density and so in some ways that's a it's not the end it's the means to the end in what Reed and the rest of the leadership team has been trying to build and so in order to do that you have to really hold yourself to a lot of stuff that doesn't feel like natural human behavior and what I mean by that is giving the feedback this gets into the second bucket so giving feedback being candid around your expectations when they're not being met what could be better in helping people improve and be able to receive that type of feedback

某种程度上说，它非常非常鲜明地映照出 Reed Hastings 作为 Netflix 创始人的样子。他创办 Netflix、并把公司一路做大的时候，抱着这样一个信念：建公司可以有另一种搞法，能让这里成为一个人们蓬勃生长、真心愿意待着的地方，并且跟别处不一样——不光是人才密度的质量不一样，更重要的是卓越程度和拿到的结果不一样，而人的成就感很大一部分正是从这里来的。所以这一点从最早的日子起就深深扎在 Netflix 里。人才密度里很大一块当然是招聘——谁进来、谁加入这个团队。但更多的是：如果你不从高人才密度出发，文化的其他方面根本无从谈起，包括 candor（坦诚）、学习、追求卓越与改进、自由与责任。所以从某种意义上说，它不是目的，而是达成目的的手段——是 Reed 和其他领导层一直想搭建的那套东西的手段。而要做到这一点，你必须逼自己坚守很多并不符合人类本能的东西。我指的是：给反馈——这就说到第二块了——给反馈，在期待没被满足时坦诚地讲出来、讲清楚哪里可以更好，从而帮别人进步；同时也要能接得住这类反馈。

[30:45]

yourself in order to keep Talent density High because no one comes to Netflix as a perfect human being and stays a perfect human being the whole time we all have ways that we could grow and improve and and so in order to keep that bar High you have to be willing to have those types of very uncomfortable conversations it's an uncomfortable amount of cander and feedback in order to keep that bar high and then the other piece of it is another thing that doesn't come naturally to humans which is making a call in pretty timely fashion if someone's not able to meet the bar to say either I don't think the role you're sitting in is the right role or I don't think that Netflix is the right place for you and to make that something that is part of best practice to get to a point where you could make that decision and that's where we refer to the keeper test which is really just a mental framing to make sure we hold ourselves accountable for this where if I'm asking myself the question if if this person on my team came to me and said I'm leaving today I have a different opportunity and I would like to take it would I do everything I could to keep them at Netflix if not then I should be having that tough conversation about should you really be here are you in the right role if I might be a little bit relieved if you said you were leaving and the reason the keeper test and that question is useful is because no one wants to think

……自己，才能把 talent density（人才密度）维持在高位。因为没有人是以一个完美的人的身份加入 Netflix、并且一路完美到底的，我们每个人都有可以成长和改进的地方。所以要守住这条高标准线，你就得愿意去进行那种非常不舒服的对话——为了把标准线守在高处，需要一种让人不太舒服的坦诚（candor）和反馈密度。另一部分是人类天性里同样不擅长的事：在有人达不到标准时，比较及时地做出判断，去说「我觉得你现在坐的这个岗位不是最适合你的」，或者「我觉得 Netflix 不是最适合你的地方」，并且把这件事变成最佳实践的一部分，让你真的能走到做出这个决定的那一步。这就是我们说的 keeper test（留任测试）的由来——它其实只是一个思维框架，用来确保我们对这件事真的负起责任。具体就是问自己：如果我团队里的这个人今天来找我说「我要走了，我有另一个机会想去试试」，我会不会竭尽全力把他留在 Netflix？如果不会，那我就应该去进行那场艰难的对话——你真的应该待在这里吗？你在合适的岗位上吗？如果你说你要走、我心里反而有点松了口气的话……keeper test 和这个问题之所以有用，是因为没有人愿意这样去想

[32:24]

that way it's very hard to say to someone I think this isn't the right fit I think you should move on from the company so we have to introduce some of those Reflections in order to encourage the behavior and we also then want to get to a place where when you're having that tough conversation people aren't surprised by it that is easier said than done but you can only get to that conversation around I don't think Netflix and you are the right fit for one another if you've been giving feedback along the way and so it feels like you know in it in its most ideal State it's a mutual observation in practice it's not always that smooth obviously we are humans but it that all feeds on itself in order to make sure that we're really holding ourselves to what we say our our behavioral Norms as part of the culture how how's that operationalized is that just like a mental model that you should have in mind or is it like every quarter you should go through this exercise is a part of the performance review process how does it actually operationalize the network uh it's definitely a mental model so when we talk to managers about what does it mean to be a manager at Netflix it would mean you should be with some frequency asking yourself this about the people on your team people ask me frequently am I passing your keeper test so it becomes part of a regular manager direct report oneon-one and it is just another way of saying am

这个问题。跟一个人说「我觉得你跟这里不太合适，我觉得你应该离开公司」，这是非常难开口的，所以我们必须引入这样一些自省的机制，来推动这个行为真的发生。同时我们也希望做到：当你真的进行那场艰难的对话时，对方不会感到意外。这说起来容易做起来难，但你之所以能走到「我觉得 Netflix 和你彼此并不合适」这场对话，前提是你一路上一直在给反馈。所以在最理想的状态下，这更像是一个双方共同得出的观察结论；实践中当然不会永远这么顺滑，毕竟我们都是人。但这一整套是互相强化的，最终是为了确保我们真的按自己嘴上说的那些行为准则来要求自己——它们本身就是文化的一部分。 那这个东西具体是怎么落地的？它只是一个你应该放在心里的思维模型，还是说每个季度要走一遍这套流程、是绩效评估流程的一环？在 Netflix 它到底是怎么落地的？ 它绝对是一个思维模型。我们跟管理者讲「在 Netflix 当一个 manager 意味着什么」的时候，其中一条就是：你应该以一定的频率，对团队里的每个人问自己这个问题。也经常有人来问我：我通过你的 keeper test 了吗？所以它变成了 manager 和直属下属日常 1:1 里的一部分，它其实就是换一种方式在问：我

[33:57]

I meeting your expectations what's going well what's not going well how are you thinking about things and that can sometimes be a very awkward conversation to have so in the middle of a lot of like we have to talk about this project or that deliverable or this thing that's happening to take the time to step back and just say how am I doing can feel loaded sometimes and the keeper test while it feels like a very heavy concept creates a lightness around being able to have that conversation regularly so it it we do operationalize it a point that you made I'll just clarify we don't have performance reviews oh wow so we don't have a practice that a lot of other companies do where we would think about reflecting on like a rating of how things are going we do have an annual cycle of 360 feedback where you request and receive feedback from a lot of people but it's not an input to some output it's just for the value of the feedback and to make sure we're keeping that muscle and we have an annual compensation cycle where we reflect on how are people doing and so you think about performance as part of both promotions and as part of compensation but in that way it's it has to be part of the day-to-day and part of the operating Rhythm because we don't create a process where that would come to the surface interesting I didn't know that so the idea there is just ongoing like the whole it's what many people

有没有达到你的期待？哪些做得好？哪些做得不好？你现在是怎么看的？这种对话有时候会非常尴尬——你们正在聊「这个项目怎么办」「那个交付物怎么样」「最近发生了什么事」，中间要抽出时间退一步问一句「我表现得怎么样」，有时候会显得很沉重。而 keeper test 虽然听起来是个很重的概念，反而让这种对话可以轻松地、经常性地发生。所以我们确实是把它落地了。 你刚才提到的一点我澄清一下：我们没有绩效评估（performance review）。 哇。 很多别的公司会做的那种事——给一个「你干得怎么样」的评级、定期回顾——我们没有这套。我们确实有一年一次的 360 反馈周期，你会向很多人请求并收到反馈，但它不是用来产出某个结果的输入，它就是为了反馈本身的价值，也是为了确保我们一直保持这块「肌肉」。我们还有一年一次的薪酬周期，会去回顾大家表现如何。所以绩效这件事会体现在晋升和薪酬这两个方面。但也正因如此，它必须成为日常的一部分、成为运转节奏的一部分——因为我们并没有设计一个能让这些问题自动浮上台面的流程。 有意思，我之前不知道这一点。所以核心思路就是持续不断地……这几乎是很多人

[35:24]

dream of no performance reviews we will give you on going realtime feedback we don't have to wait 6 months I feel like people talk about this but very rarely do this but that's how you guys operate in the ideal in ideal practice it's like that you have to keep reminding yourself this is our ideal because it's really easy to rely on the annual 360 cycle and all of a sudden I might get I do get about 300 pieces of feedback and some of those things are things that happened six months ago and I think oh I wish you had told me this at the time that would have been more living the Netflix culture so we have to push ourselves to do it that way but yeah that is if working well it's very timely direct feedback the 360 cycle is sort of the annual check-in on let me get the full picture let me be able to distill some themes let me Tee It Up For a conversation with my manager and then it it does remove the the sort of crutch of an every six-month performance review or something like that when you talked about this example of someone asking you often am I am I meeting your keeper test it makes me feel like someone's just like super nervous they're like am I passing your keeper test and it makes me feel like it could create a culture of just like a lot of stress and worry and this Hunger Games mentality of like I got to compete and worry and I might die or get fired any day I'm guessing the

梦寐以求的：没有绩效评估，我们给你持续的、实时的反馈，不用等六个月。我感觉这件事很多人都在说，但真正做到的极少，而你们就是这么运转的。 理想状态下是这样。你得不断提醒自己「这是我们的理想状态」，因为太容易去依赖那个一年一次的 360 周期了——我一下子会收到、我确实每年会收到大概 300 条反馈，其中有些说的是六个月前发生的事，我看到就会想：唉，你当时就告诉我该多好，那才更像是在活出 Netflix 的文化。所以我们得逼自己按那种方式做。但没错，运转良好的时候，它就是非常及时、非常直接的反馈。360 周期更像是一年一次的盘点：让我看到全貌，让我能提炼出一些主题，让我能把它铺垫成一次和我 manager 的对话。这样确实就去掉了「每六个月一次绩效评估」之类的拐杖。 你刚才举的那个例子——有人经常来问你「我有没有通过你的 keeper test」——听上去会让我觉得这人是不是特别紧张，一直在问「我过关了吗」。感觉这可能会造出一种充满压力和焦虑的文化，一种《饥饿游戏》式的心态：我必须竞争、必须担心，随时可能「死掉」或者被裁。我猜

[36:52]

solution to that is partly cultural this is just the way we work you you don't need to stress all the time but you may be let go if you're not meeting this keeper test how do you avoid this just like constant worry that you might be fired any day and that you may not be hitting the bar in my personal experience I have felt a lot more at ease by having these conversations than by not having them so in many roles I've had I haven't been sure how I was doing or things I could be doing better on and I didn't quite know how to get that information and that made me feel much more stressed or nervous or at risk than having it be part of the culture to have those conversations so the thing that I think can be nerve-wracking and I feel it myself is the high bar for excellence at Netflix and you're surrounded by if we're doing this well you're surrounded by amazing people and that can feed a sense of am I doing well enough compared to how everyone else is doing and I I know the bars high for the most part that can drive people and in a good way but in some ways it makes people nervous and that's where I think it's helpful to know we expect to have these conversations so you can just kind of you know let your shoulders relax a little bit of yes the expectations are high but my manager says I'm doing a great job or my manager says I'm not doing a great job but they gave me concrete things that I could do better

这个问题的解法有一部分是文化层面的：这就是我们的工作方式，你不需要一直紧绷，但如果你没通过 keeper test，确实可能会被请走。你们是怎么避免那种「我随时可能被开掉、我可能没达到标准」的持续焦虑的？ 就我个人的经历而言，有这些对话反而让我轻松得多，比没有这些对话轻松得多。我做过的很多岗位上，我并不确定自己表现如何、哪些地方可以做得更好，也不太知道该怎么拿到这些信息——那种状态让我感到的压力、紧张和风险感，比把这类对话变成文化的一部分要大得多。所以我觉得真正让人紧张的——我自己也有这种感觉——是 Netflix 对卓越的高标准，以及如果我们做得对的话，你周围全是极其优秀的人。这确实会催生一种「跟大家比，我做得够好吗」的感觉。我知道这条标准线很高，多数时候它能以一种好的方式驱动人，但某种程度上也会让人紧张。而这恰恰是「知道我们本来就会有这些对话」有帮助的地方——你可以让肩膀稍微松一点：是的，期待很高，但我的 manager 说我做得很好；或者我的 manager 说我做得不够好，但他给了我一些具体的、可以改进的东西。

[38:33]

and so I I think knowing is better than not and so in that sense it's the culture combined with the conversations around performance I hope take a little bit of that stress out of it but I've certainly heard it a lot that without that conversation people can be nervous that's such a good point and such a good example that I feel like every company wants to have a high bar and have only High performers and keep the bar really high for every person they hire I'm curious I know this could be its own podcast and book but just in terms of hiring people at that are amazing and keeping this bar of Excellence is there anything you can point out that might be helpful to other companies hiring to help identify amazing people and make sure that bar stays High one thing I know is you guys pay top market for salary I think that's one unique thing about Netflix is we just pay pay people uh so maybe that's an answer part of this answer but just what what advice do you have for people to keep a really high bar in their talent yeah I mean on the compensation point we pay what we call personal top of Market meaning we want to be highly competitive in the pay but we don't want pay to be like the golden handcuffs of Netflix sets Market rather than paying people a strongly competitive compensation so I think that that's important for attracting and ret retaining talent and has been a big part of the culture but almost more

所以我觉得，知道总比不知道好。从这个意义上说，文化加上围绕绩效的这些对话，我希望能把一部分压力卸掉。但我确实经常听到：没有那场对话的时候，人反而会紧张。 这一点说得太好了，例子也特别好。我感觉每家公司都想有一条高标准线、只留高绩效的人、对每一个招进来的人都保持很高的门槛。我很好奇——我知道这个话题本身可以做成一整期播客、写成一本书——但就「招到极其优秀的人、并把这条卓越的线守住」这件事，你有没有什么可以点出来、对其他公司招聘有帮助的东西：怎么识别出那些真正优秀的人，怎么确保这条线一直很高？我知道的一点是，你们付的是市场顶端的薪酬。我觉得这是 Netflix 挺独特的一点，就是你们真的舍得给钱。所以这可能是答案的一部分。但除此之外，你对怎么把人才门槛守得很高有什么建议？ 关于薪酬这一点，我们付的是我们所说的 personal top of market（个人的市场最高价），意思是我们希望在薪酬上极具竞争力，但我们不希望薪酬变成 Netflix 的金手铐——不是让 Netflix 去定义市场价，而是实实在在给人一份强竞争力的薪酬。所以我认为这对吸引和留住人才很重要，也一直是文化里很大的一部分。但几乎更

[40:08]

importantly we hope we don't have to rely on that to want people to want to be at Netflix or for us to be able to assess whether people are going to thrive at Netflix and the way that I've thought about hiring with that context is we know we're going to offer you very highly competitive compensation but are you going to come to Netflix and help us identify the right problems to solve or new ways to solve existing problems and that's a different way of hiring then you might think about especially at scale where you're saying does this person have this skill this skill this skill check they're going to fit in this box and they're going to deliver this work that I need them to do I'm being intentionally simplistic I recognize a lot of people don't hire actually that way but at Netflix we try really hard to say we're looking from the new perspective or the person who's actually going to make us stronger as a team so thinking about additive skills additive perspectives people who are going to push our thinking on something and that tends to help us with thinking about Talent density because you're constantly introducing people to the team who up level so then the questions you have to ask in an interview might be different because yes we're trying to assess do you have the Baseline skills to be successful here but we're also looking for the things that make people exceptional or even stronger than the

重要的是，我们希望不必靠钱来让人愿意待在 Netflix，也不必靠钱来判断一个人能不能在 Netflix 干得好。在这个前提下，我思考招聘的方式是：我们知道我们会给你极具竞争力的薪酬，但问题是——你来了 Netflix 之后，能不能帮我们找到真正该解决的问题，或者帮我们找到解决现有问题的新方法？这跟你通常想象的招聘方式不一样，尤其是规模化招聘的时候，那种做法是：这个人有没有这项技能、那项技能、还有那项技能，打勾，他能塞进这个格子里，能交付我需要他交付的活。我是故意说得简单化了，我知道很多人实际上并不是这样招人的。但在 Netflix，我们非常努力地去做到：我们要找的是能带来新视角的人，是真的能让我们这个团队变得更强的人。所以我们想的是「增量的技能」「增量的视角」，是那些能把我们的思考往前推一把的人。这一点通常能帮我们守住 talent density，因为你在不断往团队里引入把水位抬高的人。那么面试里你要问的问题可能就不一样了——因为没错，我们要评估你有没有在这里成功所需的基础能力，但我们同时也在找那些让人变得卓越、甚至比

[41:37]

team we've got and then you think about making the magical teams comprised of all those amazing minds and what can you get out of that and that feels like more the the talent density and practice got it so the advice there essentially is don't look for someone just simply great look for someone that raises the bar for for the whole team brings in a whole new perspective yeah I think what's great about this idea of just maintaining Excellence consistently is that the best people want to work with the best people and as soon as there's one person that sucks and the company allows for that it just brings everyone down because they know hey we can we can be okay we'll sticker no one's goingon to do anything about it and when you make it clear we only have want the best and only hire the best only keep the best it keeps the best there right I that's part of this strategy it's definitely the goal and I I think understanding that having gaps in the team and people's skill sets or their behavior can be really toxic for other people on the team so it's a cost this episode is brought to you by explo a game changer for customer facing analytics and data reporting are your users craving more dashboards reports and analytics within your product are you tired of trying to build it yourself as a a product leader you probably have these requests in your road map but the struggle to prioritize them is real

我们现有团队更强的东西。然后你再去想：把这些了不起的头脑组合成一个个神奇的团队，能从中得到什么。这感觉才更接近 talent density 在实践中的样子。 明白了。所以建议本质上是：不要只找一个「很优秀」的人，要找那个能把整个团队的水位抬高、能带进全新视角的人。 是的。我觉得「持续维持卓越」这个理念最妙的地方在于：最好的人想跟最好的人共事。一旦团队里出现一个很差的人，而公司还容忍了，整体就会被拉下来——因为大家会想：哦，原来混着也行，待着也没事，反正没人会管。而当你明确表态「我们只要最好的、只招最好的、只留最好的」，最好的人就会留下来。这是这套策略的一部分，对吧？ 这绝对是目标。而且我觉得要理解：团队在技能或行为上出现缺口，对团队里其他人可能是非常有毒的，所以它是有代价的。 本期节目由 Explo 赞助——面向客户的分析与数据报表的规则改变者。你的用户是不是一直想在你的产品里看到更多 dashboard、报表和分析？你是不是已经厌倦了自己从头做这些？作为产品负责人，你的 roadmap 上大概率有这些需求，但真要给它们排优先级又非常纠结。

[43:01]

building analytics from scratch can be time-consuming expensive and a really challenging process enter explo Expo is a fully wh labeled embedded analytic solution designed entirely with your user in mind getting started is easy explow connects to any relational database or warehouse and with its low code functionality you can build and style dashboards in minutes once you're ready simp embed the dashboard or report into your application with a tiny code snippet the best part your end users can use explos AI features for their own report and dashboard generation eliminating customer data requests for your support team build and embed a fully white labeled analytics experience in days try it for free at expo. co/ Lenny that's ex. Lenny so asked on Twitter what questions to ask you and there's a great question that came in from nonu he's the head of product for linear and he asks what practices does Netflix do that other companies should not attempt to do because their talent level is so much higher than other companies that is freedom and responsibility in a nutshell so let me explain that um it's a good question and it it's kind of related to what I was saying earlier that Talent density is a prerequisite for a lot of the other ways we operate so if if we want to create a work environment where we are not prescriptive about how people solve problems or the scope of problems that

从零开始搭建分析能力既耗时又昂贵，过程还相当折磨。Explo 就是为此而来。Explo 是一套完全白标的嵌入式分析解决方案，从头到尾都是围绕你的用户设计的。上手很简单：Explo 可以连接任何关系型数据库或数据仓库，凭借低代码能力，你可以在几分钟内搭好 dashboard 并调好样式。准备好之后，只需一小段代码就能把 dashboard 或报表嵌进你的应用。最棒的是，你的终端用户可以用 Explo 的 AI 功能自己生成报表和 dashboard，这样你的客服团队就不用再处理客户的数据需求了。几天之内就能构建并嵌入一套完全白标的分析体验。到 explo.co/lenny 免费试用，也就是 explo.co/lenny。 我在 Twitter 上问了大家想问你什么问题，其中有一个很棒的问题来自 Nan Yu，他是 Linear 的产品负责人。他问：Netflix 有哪些做法是其他公司不该贸然去模仿的，因为 Netflix 的人才水平比其他公司高太多了？ 一句话概括就是 freedom and responsibility（自由与责任）。我来解释一下。这是个好问题，而且跟我前面说的有关：talent density 是我们其他很多运作方式的前提。如果我们想创造一种工作环境，在其中我们不去规定人们该怎么解决问题、该处理多大范围的问题——

[44:48]

they could tackle assuming they're highly impactful for the business and we don't have a lot of process around that work so think about being able to make large Innovations to our Engineering Systems or introducing new ways to think about metrics and experimentation we get a lot of those things because we give people the freedom and the space to explore and question things and experiment in a way with Solutions and I I think that that would be very hard if not dangerous if we didn't have a high Talent density it's really not a top down do a then B then C even in how we go through some of our planning processes or thinking about how we think about priorities there is a lot of room for contribution across all levels of the team and that requires Talent density and then there's things like you know you have to have amazing people if you're not going to have really strict guard rails that would influence the consumer experience or business stakeholders experience and we do give people a lot of responsibility on those things so I think the the lack of process and prescriptiveness is all hinging on we've got amazing people who are smart but even better have strong judgment this is kind of what you always hear from people giving Founders advice is just hire amazing people get out of their way and let them do their job which is often not a successful experience what are examples that come

只要那些问题对业务影响足够大就行，而且我们在这类工作周围也没有太多流程。你想想看，比如对我们的工程系统做出大规模创新，或者提出思考指标和实验的新方式——我们之所以能得到很多这样的东西，正是因为我们给了人们自由和空间去探索、去质疑、去在解决方案上做各种尝试。我觉得如果我们没有高 talent density，这么做会非常困难，甚至可以说很危险。它真的不是自上而下的「先做 A、再做 B、然后做 C」。哪怕是我们走某些规划流程、或者思考优先级排序的方式，团队各个层级都有很大的贡献空间，而这需要 talent density。还有一些事情，比如说——如果你不打算设很严格的护栏，而这些事又会影响消费者体验或者业务相关方的体验，那你就必须有极其优秀的人。而我们在这些事情上确实给了大家很大的责任。所以我觉得，「流程少、规定少」这件事完全建立在一个前提上：我们有一群非常优秀的人，他们聪明，但更重要的是判断力很强。 这有点像你总能听到的、给创始人的那种建议：招最优秀的人，然后别挡道，让他们自己干。但这件事在实践中往往并不成功。有哪些例子能

[46:34]

either things that came out of this freedom I don't know products or features or ideas that came out of this or policies or processes you don't have that everyone else might have so I know there's no vacation time there's like unlimited vacation time if that I assume is that still a thing unlimited vacation time okay cool yeah all right uh great uh and I know performance reviews you talked about that so I guess in either direction like is an example of something that came out of this Freedom or some process that would surprise people that you don't have or a framework or system we've been able to deliver you know I'll speak to my own team around Innovations in our content delivery Network or Innovations in encoding or Innovations in Discovery and personalization were not driven by some leader saying I think this is a priority they were driven in many es by individual contributors who had great ideas for Innovation so a lot of the stuff that Netflix has succeeded in came from creating space for people on the team so there's probably thousands of examples of product features and things like that that came out of creating this space and right now the trick is finding the sweet spot so that we can operate efficiently at this type of scale with out snuffing out some of that what was kind of the core beauty of the culture maybe a last question around just the culture we talked on about cander a bit

要么是从这种自由里长出来的东西——我也说不好，可能是产品、功能或者点子；要么是别人都有、但你们偏偏没有的政策或流程。我知道你们没有休假天数限制，是无限假期那种，我猜现在还是这样？无限假期，对吧？行，酷。好，太好了。绩效评估你刚才也讲过了。所以我想问的是，正反两个方向都行——有没有哪个例子，是从这种自由里长出来的？或者有没有哪个流程、框架、系统，说出来会让人惊讶「你们居然没有」？我们确实做成过不少东西。就说我自己带的团队吧——我们在 content delivery network（内容分发网络）上的创新、在编码上的创新、在内容发现和个性化推荐上的创新，都不是某个领导拍板说「我觉得这是优先级」推动起来的，很多时候是那些自己有绝妙想法的 individual contributor（一线个人贡献者）推动的。所以 Netflix 之所以能成功，很多东西都源自我们给团队里的人留出了空间。从这片空间里长出来的产品功能之类的例子，大概有成千上万个。而现在的难点，是找到那个甜蜜点——既能在这个体量下高效运转，又不至于把当年文化里最美的那个内核给掐灭。关于文化，也许最后再问一个问题吧，我们刚才稍微聊到了一点 candor（坦诚）。

[47:59]

I'm just curious if there's an example that comes to mind of of an example of cander that you recently saw or had to be the candid person that might be interesting to share uh where it's like oh wow that's what you mean when you say a culture of candid of cander there's a couple things that come to mind I am generally a transparent leader meaning I share information freely and open it's part of the culture to context not control which means part of my job is to make sure that people have the context they need to do their jobs well and in practice that means I take notes in leadership meetings and I share those notes with the whole organization and that is sometimes it it includes cander around Reflections on things that aren't going well or problems we need to solve sometimes it's just letting people know here's what leadership's talking about so that they have a sense of what's top of mind but it's it's a version of transparency that I feel strongly about doesn't exist a lot of other places and I I think it's a version of cander too in being able to share I can't we share every detail of everything that we're talking about but I do try to share things that probably push the boundary a little bit in the team feeling like they understand what's happening across the company and what I'm thinking about and then there's a second example that comes to mind which is until two years ago individual

我就是好奇，你脑子里有没有浮现出什么具体的例子——最近你亲眼看到的 candor，或者你自己不得不当那个把话说破的人，那种让人听了会「哇，原来你们说的坦诚文化是这个意思」的例子。有几件事我马上想到了。我本身就是个比较透明的领导者，意思是我会很自由、很开放地分享信息。这也是 context not control（给上下文而非控制）文化的一部分——我工作的一部分，就是确保大家拿到把活干好所需要的上下文。落到实处，就是我会在领导层会议上记笔记，然后把这些笔记分享给整个组织。有时候里面就包含挺坦诚的内容，比如对做得不好的事的反思、我们需要解决的问题；有时候只是让大家知道领导层现在在聊什么，让他们对当下的重点心里有数。但这种程度的透明，我认为在很多别的地方是不存在的，我对这件事的态度也很坚决。我觉得这本身也是 candor 的一种——当然我们不可能把讨论的每个细节都分享出去，但我确实会尽量分享一些可能有点越界的东西，好让团队觉得他们了解公司各处正在发生什么、我在想些什么。然后我还想到第二个例子，就是直到两年前，individual

[49:29]

contributors didn't have levels at Netflix so all Engineers were just senior Engineers all data scientists were senior data scientists and we did not have a leveling system we introduced IC levels two years ago almost exactly and it was a big big big shift because it it was seen as something that was sort of sacred of it a lot of people came to Netflix because we didn't have it we didn't have process around promotions we didn't this is probably part of why we never had performance reviews because promotions really weren't at play and it gave people a sense of freedom of not having to worry about that type of structure but when you get to a St scale of an organization we needed some type of scaffolding to say we want to talk about how we compose teams like when do we need the person who has 30 years of experience when do we want to have a new grad because that's what the work requires we didn't have a language for it so I introduced levels a couple years ago and it we had quite a change roller coaster is the only way I can describe how it went good phrase uh and I yeah it was sort of like being like the tumble dry machine for a few months and so really talking through it with the team that's just context and backdrop for an example of cander recently which is we had kind of a postmortem or retro on how has it gone with IC levels so it's kind of like Wells not Wells and I would normally think in a lot of cultures it

contributor（一线个人贡献者）在 Netflix 是没有职级的。所有工程师就都是 senior engineer，所有数据科学家就都是 senior data scientist，我们压根没有职级体系。差不多正好两年前，我们引入了 IC levels（个人贡献者职级）。这是一次非常非常大的转变，因为这件事一直被视为某种神圣不可动的东西——很多人来 Netflix 就是因为我们没有职级。我们没有围绕晋升的流程，我们没有……这大概也是我们从来不做绩效评估的部分原因，因为晋升这件事根本就不在牌桌上。这给了人一种自由感，不用去操心那套结构。但当组织到了一定规模，我们需要某种脚手架，好让我们能讨论团队该怎么搭配——比如什么时候需要一个有 30 年经验的人，什么时候我们想要一个应届生，因为这活儿就需要这样的人。当时我们连描述这件事的语言都没有。所以几年前我引入了职级，然后……那真是一段相当剧烈的变革。要形容它是怎么过来的，我只能说是「过山车」。这词儿用得好。是啊，那几个月大概就像被扔进滚筒烘干机里翻来覆去，然后一点一点真的去跟团队谈。这些只是背景和铺垫，我真正想说的是最近一个关于 candor 的例子——我们做了一次 postmortem，或者说复盘，回顾 IC levels 推行下来到底怎么样，就是那种「哪些做得好、哪些没做好」的形式。换成很多别的公司文化，我本来会以为，这件事

[51:07]

would be like well we got past that change we're living that change like don't don't reflect on it because that kind of opens some of that early debate and I felt differently about it I think it's a good example of being candid about this was a big change for us it hasn't all gone perfectly there's a lot that we can do better how we Implement levels at Netflix and I would rather share that information than pretend it's all gone swimmingly and we achieved every objective so I think that I try to build examples like that because I I do think that level of cander and reflection helps build a sense of community and Trust across the team it's an awesome example kind of along the lines of that but also this category of freedom and responsibility something Netflix innovated long ago and I'm curious if this is is still a thing is this idea of chaos monkeys which essentially are a program that runs on your infrastructure that just kills random processes and things and just to see what breaks and make sure things are stable when things actually start falling apart so uh is chaos monkeys is that what it's still was that what it's called and then is that still a thing is there still some chaos monkeys running around the the servers not unbridled chaos monkeys no okay contained chaos no car we carry too much responsibility speaking of freedom and responsibility for the member experience to

大概会变成：行了，我们已经熬过那次变革了，我们正活在这个变革里，别、别再回头去反思了，因为一反思就等于把当初那些争论又重新掀开。但我不这么看。我觉得这是个很好的坦诚样本——承认这对我们是一次大变革，它并没有全程完美，我们在 Netflix 落地职级这件事上还有很多可以做得更好的地方。比起假装一切顺风顺水、每个目标都达成了，我宁愿把真实情况分享出去。所以我会刻意去制造这样的例子，因为我真心相信，这种程度的 candor 和反思，能在整个团队里建立起社群感和信任。这个例子太棒了。顺着这条线，但也属于 freedom and responsibility（自由与责任）这一类——Netflix 很早以前搞出来的一个东西，我很好奇现在还在不在，就是 chaos monkey（混沌猴）。它本质上是跑在你基础设施上的一个程序，随机杀掉一些进程之类的东西，就为了看看什么会崩，确保真出事的时候系统还是稳的。所以 chaos monkey，它现在还叫这个名字吗？还有它现在还在跑吗？服务器上是不是还有几只混沌猴在乱窜？没有那种放任自流的混沌猴了。哦，好，是「受控的混沌」。没有了，因为我们——说到 freedom and responsibility——对会员体验背负的责任太重，重到不能去

[52:33]

inject pain though we do do a lot of experiments to test resilience and that does probably mean injecting things that we're not quite sure whether a is better than b and so that happens across Engineering Systems really at scale but it it's not for Pure chaos it's for intentional learning and so we can avoid making bigger mistakes and then as we go into new efforts like Cloud games we have a beta that's out now live would be another example we do try to come up with intentionally lowprofile examples where we can test the bals of our systems in a way that's unlikely to damage the member experience but uh that's less Randomness more by Design and so we're doing that in a few places that feels mostly like good engineering practice so we can understand when when it's really showtime and we're going to really test our systems will they be able to perform like we want them to rip chaos monkey yeah so kind of along these lines of data something that so data itself has always been at the heart of Netflix and my understanding is the way the data team and the insights team is structured has been one of the reasons Netflix has been so successful and that's the team you led before you moved into this new role can you just talk about how these teams are structured and why the structure is so effective yeah I certainly like to think of it as being special it's unusual I can explain why so at the scale of company that

刻意注入痛苦。不过我们确实做了大量测试系统韧性的实验，那多少也意味着要往里注入一些我们并不确定 A 是不是比 B 更好的东西，这在整个工程系统里、在很大的规模上都在发生。但它不是为了纯粹的混乱，而是为了有意识地学习，好让我们避免犯更大的错。另外，当我们开拓新的方向时，比如 Cloud games（云游戏），现在有个 beta 已经上线了，直播是另一个例子——我们会刻意去找那些低调、不显眼的场景，在里面试探系统的边界，而这种试探不太可能伤到会员体验。但这更少靠随机、更多靠设计。我们在好几个地方都这么做，感觉这基本上就是良好的工程实践，好让我们心里有数：等到真正上大场面、要真刀真枪考验我们系统的时候，它到底能不能拿出我们期望的表现。R.I.P. chaos monkey（安息吧，混沌猴）。是啊。顺着数据这条线聊——数据本身一直是 Netflix 的核心，而且据我了解，数据团队和洞察团队的组织方式，是 Netflix 之所以这么成功的原因之一，而这正是你换到现在这个岗位之前带的团队。你能不能讲讲这些团队是怎么搭的，为什么这个结构这么有效？可以。我确实愿意觉得它挺特别的，它不太常见，我可以解释为什么。在一家规模达到

[54:23]

Netflix now is is very often data oriented teams are embedded in other parts of the business so it could either be they're embedded in a business line like ads or games or they are organized more functionally separating data Engineers from data scientists from analytics Engineers from consumer researchers and we've resisted that and kept a centralized team that is both functionally diverse so across all those types of functions that I just described and works on nearly every area of the business from within the team and I sort of understand why a lot of companies move away from this because it really does require basically extraordinary partnership that we would have people work on data problems that don't report into the teams that are relying on them but the benefit we get is we get to think about our functional expertise so are we really world's best data Engineers world's best data scientists and how do we continue to be ever better from a functional and Technical perspective it gives people better career paths because there's more Mobility across the teams it feels like a team that has a functional expertise with a lot of different problems to solve and so I think it enables more cross-pollination of ideas in a way and it also allows us to be really objective that is probably the most important thing that our job is not to tell the story that someone wants to hear with the data or to solve the

Netflix 今天这种量级的公司里，数据导向的团队通常都是嵌进业务其他板块里的。要么是嵌进某条业务线，比如广告或者游戏；要么就是按职能拆开组织，把 data engineer、data scientist、analytics engineer、consumer researcher 各归各的。而我们一直抵制这种做法，保留了一个中心化的团队——它在职能上是多元的，涵盖我刚才说的所有这些角色，同时又从团队内部去支持几乎所有的业务领域。我大概能理解为什么很多公司最后放弃了这种模式，因为它确实需要极其了不起的协作关系：让一批人去解决数据问题，而这些人并不向依赖他们的那些团队汇报。但我们换来的好处是，我们可以专注思考自己的职能专长——我们真的是世界上最好的 data engineer 吗？世界上最好的 data scientist 吗？我们怎么从职能和技术的角度持续做得更好？它也给了大家更好的职业发展路径，因为跨团队的流动性更强。它感觉像是一个拥有共同职能专长、却面对一大堆不同问题的团队，所以我觉得这在某种程度上促成了更多想法的交叉授粉。而且它还让我们能真正做到客观——这可能是最重要的一点：我们的工作不是用数据去讲一个别人想听的故事，也不是去解决

[56:16]

problem that someone thinks is most important it's for us to have our own perspective about things and I think that that up levels the whole organiz a because it means that we're able to be truth tellers or to be curious in a way that might not fit if we had a different organizational structure we have to balance that with be a good partner deliver on the things we agreed were priorities be flexible without we're spending our time but it gives us agency and responsibility beyond that and I feel like the team takes that very seriously so I've seen examples of that in how we bring data to a lot of spaces including how we partner with engineering on data related topics or how we partner with content that I'm not sure we would have gotten to if not for having that kernel that's sort of a center of excellence around it and uh it's data and insights that was the team that you ran insights is that describing user research or what is that a function actually so part of data and insights is a consumer insights team that includes a lot of different flavors of research really so in some ways consumer is even a misnomer because there's parts of the team that do internal research for example on tools and products for our studio Productions so that's more of a a user research oriented versus consumer and then the parts of that team that are consumer oriented do things all the way from content screenings to make

某个人认为最重要的那个问题，而是我们自己要对事情有独立的看法。我觉得这会把整个组织的水位往上抬，因为这意味着我们能当那个讲真话的人，能保持好奇心——而这种状态在别的组织结构下可能就装不下。当然我们得平衡好这一点：要做个好搭档，把大家一起定下的优先级交付出来，在时间投在哪儿这件事上保持灵活。但除此之外，它给了我们主动性和责任感，而且我感觉团队非常认真地对待这一点。我在很多场景里都见过这样的例子，比如我们怎么在数据相关的话题上跟工程团队合作，或者怎么跟内容团队合作——如果没有那个类似「卓越中心」的内核，我不确定我们能不能走到那一步。这个团队叫 data and insights（数据与洞察），也就是你之前带的那支。这里的 insights 是指用户研究吗，还是说它是另外一种职能？其实，data and insights 里面有一块是 consumer insights（消费者洞察）团队，它包含了很多不同风味的研究。所以从某种意义上说，consumer 这个词甚至有点名不副实，因为团队里有一部分人做的是内部研究，比如研究我们给影视制作用的工具和产品，那更偏 user research 而不是 consumer research。而团队里真正面向消费者的那部分，做的事范围很广，从内容试映（content screenings）——为的是让

[57:47]

titles the best version of themselves before they're on the service to more traditional ux research search to think about how can we deliver the best title Discovery experience or how can we think about things that improve accessibility and then that team has a global remit so there's also teams that are more local or Regional expertise in understanding consumer needs and entertainment so consumer insights and a team formerly known as still kind of known as as a shorthand data science and and Engineering combined together to create data and insight it's probably about two years ago that's another piece that's unusual becomes truly a full stack data and research expertise and so we could tackle a problem like what's the right way to think about recommendations and how best to surface them in a way that combines attitudinal research qualitative and quantitative with behavioral research on more of the data science data engineering and analytics side it's super cool because I think it's really rare that the what people think of of us user research is within the data or and I think that might be a solution to some of the backlash a lot of user research teams get where they're like I don't know what are you guys doing all this anecdotal evidence if it's under the same org uh I feel like that leads to a lot more credibility and uh avoids this like oh data is telling me this thing this user

片子在上线之前成为最好版本的自己——一直到更传统的 UX research，去思考我们怎么才能提供最好的内容发现体验，或者怎么把无障碍访问做得更好。而且这个团队的职责范围是全球性的，所以还有一些更本地、更区域化的团队，专门理解各地消费者在娱乐上的需求。所以就是 consumer insights，加上一个曾经叫做、现在口头上也还这么简称的 data science and engineering（数据科学与工程）团队，两边合到一起，组成了 data and insights，大概是两年前的事。这是另一个不太寻常的地方——它真正变成了一支全栈的数据加研究能力。这样我们就能去啃这样的问题：推荐系统到底该怎么想才对？怎么把内容以最好的方式呈现出来？这个过程会把态度层面的研究（定性加定量）和行为层面的研究——也就是偏 data science、data engineering、analytics 那一侧——结合起来。这太酷了，因为我觉得非常少见：大家印象里的用户研究，居然是放在数据部门底下的。而且我觉得这可能正好能化解很多用户研究团队遭遇的那种质疑——就是那种「我也不知道你们天天在忙什么，全是些道听途说的证据」。如果都在同一个组织下面，我感觉可信度会高很多，也能避免出现那种「数据告诉我这个结论，可用户

[59:14]

research team is telling me this thing what should we yeah I I mean consumer insights was one of the newer teams for me you know it wasn't in my background to lead a team like that and not in my individual training but they they are critical for making sure we keep a consumer orientation a member orientation on things and I have loved to watch the teams collaborate on problems because it it's we talk about it as a superpower internally in combining those skill sets so I think the consumer insights team at Netflix has had a lot of credibility in a certain area of expertise and we took it to the next level by combining it with other of the fun functional expertise so it's it doesn't it's not required in every problem space so we try not to overdo it and say we need to be collaborating everywhere because that just feels like a the wrong expectation but we try to make the most of it in spaces where we really benefit so yeah it's worked out really well awesome okay I'm GNA ask two more questions before we get to our very exciting lightning round and they're both uh skills that little birdies have told me you're very good at one is that you are very very intentional and thoughtful about staying close to individual teams and individuals within the company even though you're higher and higher in the org I'm curious how you do that how you actually practice this skill of staying really close to teams kind of at the

研究团队又告诉我另一个结论，我们到底该……」的局面。对。我是说，consumer insights 对我来说算是比较新的一块，带这样的团队既不在我的履历里，也不在我个人受过的训练里。但他们非常关键，正是他们保证了我们始终保持面向消费者、面向会员的视角。我特别喜欢看这几个团队一起攻同一个问题，因为——我们内部会把这几种技能的组合称为一种「超能力」。我觉得 Netflix 的 consumer insights 团队在某个专业领域里一直很有公信力，而我们把它和其他职能专长结合起来之后，又上了一个台阶。当然，并不是每个问题都需要这么干，所以我们尽量不做过头，不去说「我们哪儿哪儿都得协作」，因为那种期待本身就是错的。我们只是在那些真的能带来收益的地方，把这种组合用到极致。所以是的，效果非常好。太棒了。好，在进入我们特别刺激的快问快答之前，我还想问两个问题，都跟一些小道消息说你特别擅长的本事有关。第一个是，你非常非常刻意、也非常用心地跟公司里一个个具体的团队和具体的人保持近距离，哪怕你在组织里的位置越来越高。我很好奇你是怎么做到的，你到底是怎么把「跟团队保持贴近」这件事真正练成一项本事的——尤其是跟那些处在

[1:00:40]

bottom of the ladder and individuals that are working on things in on the ground basically a lot of it is how I spend my time and fighting to preserve opportunities to connect with people so examp examples would be I still have bi-weekly office hours people sign up for slots um and I I get it can feel a little like speed dating for 20 minute slots but I get to meet a whole bunch of people and hear about work here what's top of mind and people book them out many months ahead and it's just an opportunity to stay in touch and then I do as me anything sessions with team of different sizes depending on how intimate we want it to feel but truly anything is fair game as a way to get to know me as a person for me to hear questions to try to be candid about what I can answer can't answer and so those things have helped me maintain connection but both of those examples are about making the time for it so what I have found as my role has changed is that it just wouldn't happen if I didn't make it a priority and then through those types of sessions I I do think I become or I hope to become more approachable so people know you can send me a slack message you can send me an email like I mentioned earlier I'm going to respond to you as quickly as I can because I want to hold myself to that bar and so that builds a flow of communication between me and the team that I really value I don't think I

梯子最底层的团队，以及那些实实在在在一线做事的人。基本上，很大一部分取决于我怎么花时间，以及拼命去守住那些能跟人连接的机会。举几个例子：我到现在还保持着每两周一次的 office hours（开放办公时间），大家自己来抢时段。我知道 20 分钟一档，多少有点像相亲速配，但我因此能见到一大群人，听他们讲手头的工作、讲他们心里最挂念的事。这些时段大家会提前好几个月就订满，它就是一个保持联系的机会。另外我还会做 AMA（问我任何问题）场次，团队规模不一，取决于我们想让气氛有多私密。但真的是什么都可以问，这既是让大家把我当成一个真实的人来认识，也是让我听到大家的问题，然后尽量坦诚地回答——能答的答，不能答的也说清楚。这些做法帮我维持住了连接。但这两个例子说到底都是关于「把时间挤出来做这件事」。我发现随着我的角色变化，如果我不把它当成一件优先的事，它就根本不会发生。而且通过这类场合，我确实变得、或者说我希望自己变得更平易近人一些，让大家知道你可以给我发 Slack 消息、可以给我发邮件。就像我前面提到的，我会尽快回复你，因为我想把自己框在这个标准上。这样就在我和团队之间建立起了一条我非常珍视的沟通通路。我不觉得我

[1:02:20]

would want to do my job if I didn't have those points of connection so that helps to you also send that email to everyone after every leadership meeting so they're like oh yeah Elizabeth yeah they hear from me yeah kind of related to this um so we have a mutual friend that's how we got connected Ali Ral uh she was a data scientist at herb B now she's at Uber and she had a question that she wanted me to ask and it's about uh how good you are at being present so her question is something you she's noticed about something I've noticed about her is how 100% present she is no matter who she talks to do you have any advice for people to get better at this because it's so hard in the day of email and iPhones and slack her question is like like when does she respond to stuff if not sometimes in meetings I actually think I'm the most present when I'm having conversations like this one and I I do preserve a lot of time to have one-on-one conversations where I'm genuinely curious about how someone's doing how I can help them what they're excited about that's authentic and so while my EA would probably cringe at saying I I like to spend time doing a lot of those one-on ones it's it is relatively easier for me to say like the human connection is part of what I enjoy about this I think that's true for a lot of people in what we get out of work in life but I try to live that in those meetings I'm probably not as good when

……如果没有这些连接点，我根本不会想做我这份工作，所以这很有帮助。你还会在每次领导层会议之后给所有人发那封邮件，所以大家会觉得，哦对，Elizabeth，我们是能听到她声音的。是的。跟这个有点关系——我们有个共同的朋友，我们俩就是这么认识的，Ali。她之前是 Airbnb 的数据科学家，现在在 Uber。她有个问题想让我替她问，是关于你有多擅长「保持在场」这件事。她的问题是这样的：她注意到你身上的一个特点——其实也是我注意到她身上有的特点——就是不管跟谁说话，你都能 100% 地专注在当下。对于想在这方面做得更好的人，你有什么建议吗？因为在这个到处是邮件、iPhone 和 Slack 的年代，这实在太难了。她真正想问的其实是：如果开会时不处理，那她到底什么时候回消息？我其实觉得，我最专注的时刻，恰恰就是像现在这样的一对一交谈。我确实会留出大量时间做一对一沟通，而且我是真心好奇对方过得怎么样、我能帮上什么忙、他们对什么感到兴奋——这份好奇是发自内心的。所以，虽然我的行政助理听到我说「我喜欢花时间做很多这样的一对一」大概会皱眉头，但对我来说，说出「人与人之间的连接正是我从这份工作里享受到的一部分」其实相对容易。我想这对很多人都成立——这是我们从工作和生活中真正得到的东西。所以我努力在那些会议里把这一点活出来。我大概不太擅长的是……

[1:03:56]

we're talking about meetings of 30 people and I'm multitasking um so I will admit to doing that for sure but I I think the one-on-one conversations I treat as being pretty sacred and one of the things I've noticed that helps me continue to invest in that and maybe is helpful for other people is some of my greatest friends and connections including people like Ali are people I met along the way professionally so I worked very closely with alli's husband Keith enwood at multiple places um both an alysis group and at Lyft and that means that it's created opportunities and it's been points of connection and so you get back what you give basically um there are people in my life who are part of my life because I worked with them or because I crossed paths and I like to think that if I can make a like a positive mark on them you know it'll come back and be a benefit at some point too so I think to distill that is that I truly enjoy it it's what I get out of especially work and then it it's my community and that's served me really well over time and so I have given people advice of this is a small community think about what you're investing in other people because that will matter down the line for yourself too and try to live that myself that such good advice there's kind of two things that come to mind there when is treat people the way you want to be treated someone once said that maybe and

……那种 30 个人一起开的会，我在那种场合会一心多用。这一点我承认，我肯定干过。但一对一的对话，我是当成相当神圣的事情来对待的。我发现有一件事帮助我持续在这上面投入，也许对别人也有用：我最要好的一些朋友和人脉——包括像 Ali 这样的人——都是我在职业道路上一路遇到的。我跟 Ali 的丈夫 Keith 在好几个地方非常紧密地共事过，Analysis Group 和 Lyft 都有。这就带来了机会，也成了我们之间的连接点。所以基本上就是：你付出什么，就会收获什么。我生命里有些人之所以还留在我的生活中，就是因为我曾和他们共事，或者曾经与他们有过交集。我愿意相信，如果我能在他们身上留下一点正面的印记，那么在某个时刻它也会回到我身上，变成对我自己的好处。所以提炼一下就是：我是真心享受这件事，这是我——尤其是从工作里——真正得到的东西，它构成了我的社群，而这些年来它对我帮助极大。所以我也给过别人这样的建议：这个圈子很小，好好想想你在别人身上投入了什么，因为那件事在往后的日子里对你自己也会有意义。我自己也努力这么活着。这个建议太好了。我脑子里冒出来两件事。一是「你希望别人怎么对你，就怎么对别人」——好像有人说过这话。还有……

[1:05:30]

I think you come back to this a couple times this idea of just pay attention to what gives you energy and that you're good at and just almost double down on that just like make that more and more of a superpower yeah that last part resonates it's been a big part of my personal and professional practice to reflect on how I'm feeling what what I'm excited about what I'm enjoying and I I do think it helps me be more grounded which maybe helps me be more present or helps me be a better manager or leader that might be part of the secret sauce too but it it's part of my practice I can't help but ask is this like an actual practice do you do this on a regular basis or is this just something you think about like I should reflect back I wish I was so Advanced to say I meditate and I I create all this structure it's more that I I think I mentioned maybe I'm an introvert so I do spend some time alone that's how I recharge and early mornings especially people who know me sometimes are horrified at the time of day I send emails but early mornings are a quiet time for me where I do try to have a a daily check-in of just how are things going why am I feeling anxious why am I feeling excited and it's kind of a muscle you build so while I don't I don't write in a journal I don't have a meditation practice I do have a time of day when I I try to keep it protected from other things so that I can think

……我觉得你有好几次都回到了这个点上：留意什么事情能给你能量、你又恰好擅长什么，然后几乎是加倍押注在那上面，把它越做越强，变成一种超能力。对，最后那部分很有共鸣。反思自己的感受、我对什么感到兴奋、我在享受什么，一直是我个人和职业实践里很重要的一部分。我确实觉得它让我更踏实，而踏实也许让我更能活在当下，或者让我成为一个更好的管理者和领导者。这可能也是那份「秘方」的一部分吧。但总之它就是我日常练习的一部分。我忍不住想问：这是一种真正意义上的「练习」吗？你是定期做的，还是只是偶尔想到「我该反思一下了」？我倒希望自己有那么高段位，能说「我冥想，我给自己搭了一整套结构」。其实更多是——我好像前面提过，我是个内向的人，所以我确实会留出一些独处的时间，那是我充电的方式。尤其是清晨。认识我的人有时候会被我发邮件的时间点吓一跳。但清晨对我来说是一段安静的时间，我会试着做一次每日自检：现在一切怎么样？我为什么会焦虑？我为什么感到兴奋？这有点像一块需要慢慢练出来的肌肉。所以虽然我不写日记、也没有冥想的习惯，但我确实有一个固定的时段，我会努力把它保护起来、不被别的事情占据，好让我能想一想……

[1:07:03]

for a second uh what I think about there is Jeff Bezos has this approach in the morning he just calls it he Putters around he has no meetings until I think 10 or something he just wants to putt around read the newspaper see what's going on in email which I'm trying to do I really like that that feels really good I'm just GNA putt around I have no responsibilities in the morning I like I've never heard that I'm gonna adopt that language buttering puttering um Elizabeth is there anything else you wanted to touch on or leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning R I'm ready for the exciting lightning round well with that we reached our very exciting lightning round first question what are two or three books that you recommended most to other people it's probably a little recency bias but I've been recommending what I talk about when I talk about running um by muracami which is talk about introspection about the the similarities between running and writing as sort of flow States and very meditative things so I I had read some of his fiction books and the autobiographical reflection on these types of either professions or Hobbies I think is very insightful so that's one and then one of my long favorite books is a fine balance by mystery um and that is just a great story of human complexity and Challenge and relationships so I'm drawn to both books and TV and film that are about humans

……哪怕只想一会儿。我这时候想到的是 Jeff Bezos 早上的那套做法，他管它叫 puttering around（瞎溜达）——他上午一直到十点左右都不排任何会议，就想随便晃悠、看看报纸、看看邮箱里都发生了什么。我也在试着这么做，我真的很喜欢，那种感觉特别好。就是「我随便晃晃，早上我什么责任都没有」。我从没听过这个说法，我要把这个词学过来——puttering（瞎晃悠）。Elizabeth，在我们进入非常精彩的闪电问答（lightning round）之前，你还有什么想聊的，或者想留给听众的话吗？我准备好迎接精彩的闪电问答了。那我们就进入非常精彩的闪电问答环节。第一个问题：有哪两三本书是你最常推荐给别人的？可能有点近因偏差，但我最近一直在推荐村上春树（Murakami）的《What I Talk About When I Talk About Running》（当我谈跑步时，我谈些什么）。这本书讲的是内省，讲跑步和写作之间的相似性——两者都是那种心流状态，都带着很强的冥想意味。我读过他的一些小说，而这种针对某类职业或爱好的自传式反思，我觉得非常有洞察力。这是一本。另一本是我长久以来的最爱之一，Rohinton Mistry 的《A Fine Balance》（微妙的平衡）。那是一个了不起的故事，写的是人性的复杂、苦难与关系。所以不管是书还是影视，我都会被那些真正关于「人」的作品吸引。

[1:08:43]

speaking of TV and film this is a maybe a high stakes question for someone that works in Netflix do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show I'm not going to name all n nli that feels too much like an advertisement um film triangle of sadness is phenomenal if you haven't seen it and then I'll go Netflix for TV beef was I thought hysterical I'm an Ali Wong fan but also just a pretty unique storyline and I think they just won a bunch of emmies they did amazing good picks next question question do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates that you are interviewing High Talent density I'm usually looking for the person who would be better in my role than I am in my role so I often ask people what would their priorities be what would they do differently if they had my job next question do you have a favorite product that you recently discovered that you really like so while I carry the CTO title I live a pretty analog life um so my most recent product is a fellow pourover coffee maker which is actually part of my morning ritual which I'll Now call puttering around where I take Great Lengths in my coffee making process because I find it calming and then it's not a recent find but I have to shout out that my pelaton is probably the favorite product I own the bike or the treadmill bike I'm a recovering outdoor cyclist so it's also kind of questionable if I can

说到影视——对一个在 Netflix 工作的人来说，这可能是个高风险问题——你最近有没有特别喜欢的电影或剧集？我就不把 Netflix 的片子全报一遍了，那太像打广告了。电影的话，《Triangle of Sadness》（悲情三角）非常出色，如果你还没看过的话。剧集我就选 Netflix 的吧——《BEEF》（怒呛人生）我觉得太好笑了。我是 Ali Wong 的粉丝，不过这个故事线本身也相当独特，而且他们好像刚拿了一堆艾美奖（Emmys）。确实拿了。太棒了，挑得好。下一个问题：面试候选人的时候，你有没有特别喜欢问的问题？既然讲高人才密度（high talent density），我通常在找的是那种能把我这个岗位做得比我更好的人。所以我经常会问对方：如果坐在我这个位置上，他们的优先级会是什么？他们会有哪些不一样的做法？下一个问题：你最近有没有发现什么特别喜欢的产品？虽然我顶着 CTO 的头衔，但我过的其实是相当「模拟（analog）」的生活。我最近入手的一个产品是 Fellow 的手冲咖啡壶，它其实是我晨间仪式的一部分——现在我要管这个叫 puttering around（瞎晃悠）了——我在冲咖啡这件事上会花很大功夫，因为我觉得那个过程让人平静。还有一个不算新发现，但我必须喊一嗓子：我的 Peloton 大概是我拥有的最喜欢的产品。是单车还是跑步机？单车。我算是个「戒断中」的户外骑行爱好者，所以我能不能承认这件事其实也挺可疑的……

[1:10:29]

even admit to this but that's why I will admit to I love the pelaton despite being ideally an outdoor cyclist I have questions about your cycling but before that question do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to or share with friends or family that you find useful either in work or in life my mom said something to me that has stuck with me I don't know if I live it very well but her the phrase was something good happens every day and the reason she said it was because she was encouraging me to be more mindful about enjoying the small things in the daytoday rather than letting myself get caught up in the busyness beautiful final question you're a big biker and triathlete I am curious what that Sport and time has given you in your career or in life what what benefits have you found from spending so much time and energy running biking being an athlete certainly by mental resilience so while those sound like physical strength I found especially Endurance Sports are much more mental and how you go through the highs and lows and sustain and then coming back from challenge so those Sports have had their highs and lows and from the lows I've really learned how to kind of recover and bounce back so those feel like universally applicable skills you have such an interesting mix of athleticism and then Netflix what a good balance for life this is going to give me permission to go watch some Netflix

……但正因为如此我才更要承认：尽管理想上我是个户外骑行的人，我还是爱我的 Peloton。关于你的骑行我有一堆问题，不过在那之前先问这个：你有没有特别喜欢的人生格言，是你常常会回想起来、或者分享给朋友家人的，不管在工作还是生活里都很受用的那种？我妈妈跟我说过一句话，一直留在我心里，虽然我不确定自己活得有多贴合它。那句话是：something good happens every day（每天都会有好事发生）。她之所以这么说，是因为她想鼓励我更用心地去享受日常里那些小事，而不是让自己被忙碌裹挟着走。太美了。最后一个问题：你是个重度骑行爱好者和铁人三项运动员，我很好奇，这项运动、以及你投进去的这些时间，给你的职业或人生带来了什么？花这么多时间和精力去跑步、骑车、做一个运动员，你从中得到了哪些好处？肯定有心理韧性。虽然这些听上去像是体能层面的事，但我发现耐力运动其实更多是心理层面的——你怎么熬过高峰与低谷、怎么坚持下去，以及怎么从挫折中回来。这些运动本身就有起有落，而从那些低谷里，我真正学会了怎么恢复、怎么反弹。所以这些能力感觉是放到哪里都适用的。你身上这种运动员气质和 Netflix 的组合太有意思了，人生平衡得真好。这下我有理由去看会儿 Netflix 了……

[1:12:12]

repor recording this on Friday afternoon Elizabeth you're awesome thank you so much for being here two final questions where can folks finding online if they want to reach out and maybe follow up on things and how can listeners be useful to you um you can always find me on LinkedIn um so definitely reach out or ping me if you have questions or comments and I think the way the listeners can be useful to me is being maybe curious about how they can show up even better in their lives now that we've done this reflection on Netflix culture and how we show up for other people and I would like to ask listeners to pay that forward to people that they're working with and how they show up for them amazing I love that if you end up doing this and you're listening uh maybe leave a comment on YouTube or in substack with something that you all covered about yourself Elizabeth thank you so much for being here thank you Lenny I hope you have a great weekend same bye everyone thank you so much for listening if you found this valuable you can subscribe to the show on Apple podcast Spotify or your favorite podcast app also please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast you can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny's podcast.com see you in the next episode

……我们是周五下午录的这期。Elizabeth，你太棒了，非常感谢你来。最后两个问题：如果大家想联系你、想就聊过的话题跟进，可以在哪里找到你？还有，听众可以怎么帮到你？你随时可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我，有问题或者想法都欢迎来联系我。至于听众能怎么帮我——我想是这样：既然我们刚刚一起回顾了 Netflix 的文化，以及我们如何对待身边的人，那也许可以带着一点好奇心想想，自己在生活里可以怎样表现得更好一些。我想请听众把这件事传递下去，用在他们共事的人身上，想想自己是怎么对待他们的。太棒了，我很喜欢这个。如果你正在听，并且真的这么做了，欢迎在 YouTube 或者 Substack 上留言，写下你在这期节目里对自己的某个发现。Elizabeth，非常感谢你来。谢谢你 Lenny，祝你周末愉快。你也是，大家再见。非常感谢各位收听。如果你觉得这期有价值，可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或者你常用的播客 App 上订阅本节目。也请考虑给我们打个分或者写条评价，那真的能帮助更多听众找到这档播客。你可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有往期节目，或者进一步了解本节目。我们下期见。