What happens after coding is solved? | Fiona Fung (Claude Code & Cowork)

频道: Lenny's Podcast
视频: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybrl4FYM57c
原文语言: en
统计: 共 225 轮 · Fiona 99 · Lenny 107

[0:00] Fiona

Anthropic engineers, on average, ship eight times as much code per quarter as they did compared to 2025. [music]

Anthropic 的工程师平均每个季度交付的代码量，是 2025 年的八倍。[音乐]

[0:05] Fiona

Coding is no longer the bottleneck. It's lifted the ceiling of what anyone is able to do.

写代码已经不再是瓶颈了。它把每个人能做到的事的天花板整个抬高了。

[0:10] Fiona

Everything is now possible in theory. Now, it's about how ambitious [music] can you be?

理论上现在什么都做得到了。所以接下来的问题变成了：你能有多大的野心？[音乐]

[0:14] Fiona

It's always something we ask ourselves, what's better than me doing it? Haven't thought, David.

我们一直在问自己一个问题：有什么事比我亲自上手做更值得？这个我倒是没怎么想过，David。

[0:18] Fiona

The people that seem to be doing best are taking the most initiative, getting the most proactive, have the most agency.

现在做得最好的那批人，往往是最主动出击、最有自驱力、最能掌控全局的人。

[0:22] Fiona

We say with high agency is also high accountability. So, it's all about making sure folks have that freedom to code. But, then it's also like, okay, what's the accountability for it? What's the hypothesis of what you're trying to solve?

我们常说，高自主权也意味着高责任。所以一方面要确保大家有充分写代码的自由，但另一方面也得想清楚：那责任在谁身上？你想解决的问题、你的假设到底是什么？

[0:33] Lenny

I'm curious what is lost in this new world of software engineering.

我很好奇，在软件工程的这个新世界里，我们失去了什么。

[0:36] Fiona

It can start being a lonely experience cuz we all started just working with our agent so much. And on the Claude Code team, recently, we started up pair-wise programming lunch.

它可能会慢慢变成一种很孤独的体验，因为我们都开始大量地只跟自己的 agent 打交道。所以在 Claude Code 团队，我们最近搞起了一个结对编程午餐会。

[0:44] Lenny

Something you think about is this gap forming [music] between people that are leaning into AI, killing it, and then people that are not, super frustrated, fighting, resisting.

有件事你也在琢磨，就是正在形成的这道鸿沟 [音乐]——一边是全力拥抱 AI、玩得风生水起的人，另一边是不上手的人，特别沮丧，又抗拒又对着干。

[0:52] Fiona

In terms of frustration, I think sometimes I also see a little bit of fear. For anything that there is a fear, my advice is lean in and ask, [music] "What can I do about it? What is within my control?"

说到沮丧，我有时候其实还看到一点恐惧。对于任何让人恐惧的东西，我的建议都是：迎上去，问自己 [音乐]『我能为它做点什么？哪些是我能掌控的？』

[1:05] Lenny

Today, my guest is Fiona Fung. Fiona leads the teams behind Claude Code and co-work at Anthropic. She oversees both Boris Cherney and Kat Wu, both of whom who have been on the podcast and whose episodes are in the top 10 most listened to episodes of all time. Before Anthropic, at Microsoft, Fiona ran the teams that built TypeScript and Visual Studio. After that, she went to Facebook, where she started the Facebook Marketplace team, which [music] she took from idea to launch. Today, Facebook Marketplace generates over 100 billion dollars in GMV every year. Also, while at Meta, she oversaw work on Meta's first smart glasses product, and then she helped build Orion, their first AR glasses product. Then, she went Instagram, where she led infrastructure, growth, integrity, and safety teams. While at Instagram and at Meta, she [music] oversaw an org of over 500 people. Fiona has been an engineer for over 25 years and as a long-time engineering leader, especially now [music] at Anthropic, she has such a unique lens into where things are heading, what's worth paying attention to, and what teams should be thinking about right now as [music] AI transforms the world of building. A huge thank you to Kat Lo, Boris Cherney, and Mohammad [music] Hegazi for suggesting topics and questions for this conversation. Before we get into it, don't forget to check out Lenny's product pass.com

今天我的嘉宾是 Fiona Fung。Fiona 在 Anthropic 带领着 Claude Code 和 Cowork 背后的团队。她的下属里有 Boris Cherney 和 Kat Wu，两位都上过这档播客，而且他们那两期是有史以来收听量排进前十的节目。来 Anthropic 之前，Fiona 在微软带过打造 TypeScript 和 Visual Studio 的团队。之后她去了 Facebook，从零创立了 Facebook Marketplace 团队，[音乐]一手把它从一个点子带到正式上线。如今 Facebook Marketplace 每年的 GMV 超过一千亿美元。同样在 Meta 期间，她还主导了 Meta 第一款智能眼镜产品的工作，后来又帮忙打造了 Orion——他们的第一款 AR 眼镜产品。再后来她去了 Instagram，带领基础设施、增长、合规与安全等多个团队。在 Instagram 和 Meta 那段时间，她 [音乐]管理着一个五百多人的组织。Fiona 当工程师已经超过 25 年，作为一位资深的工程负责人，尤其是现在 [音乐]在 Anthropic，她对行业走向有着非常独到的视角——什么值得关注，在 AI 重塑整个『构建』世界的当下，团队眼下又该思考些什么。特别感谢 Kat Lo、Boris Cherney 和 Mohammad [音乐] Hegazi 为这次对话提供了话题和问题的建议。在正式开聊之前，别忘了去看看 Lenny's product pass.com

[2:22]

[music]

[音乐]

[2:22] Lenny

for a free year of the hottest and most well-crafted AI products in the world available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers. With that, I bring you Fiona Fung.

——可以免费拿一年全世界最火、做工最精良的那些 AI 产品的使用权，这是 Lenny 新闻通讯订阅者的专属福利。好了，下面有请 Fiona Fung。

[2:34]

[music]

[音乐]

[2:35] Lenny

Fiona, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Fiona，非常感谢你能来，欢迎做客本播客。

[2:39] Fiona

Thanks so much for having me, Lenny.

太感谢你请我来了，Lenny。

[2:41] Lenny

So, I was at the Claude uh Code with Claude event uh I don't know, a month ago at this point and I was and I went to your talk and I I was just like, holy I got to get Fiona on this podcast. She's thinking so far ahead of where everybody else is going and what where people are at with AI. So, you've been an engineer for 25 years. I was browsing your LinkedIn. Uh you started at IBM of all places. Such a different [laughter] place to be these days. And it's just insane how much the job of an engineer has changed over the past just like 2 years. It's like a completely different job. Like, people may forget 100% of code was written by humans not long ago. And now it's getting to 100% of code written by AI. Uh as Boris uh famously said, code coding is salt. Along these lines, there's just this tweet that you guys put out yesterday where you showed uh here's the tweet. Anthropic engineers on average ship eight times as much code per quarter as they did compared to 2021 to 2025. We'll show this chart on the screen. It's just like stable stable stable stable boom shooting off into the moon. So, it's just insane how much this role has changed. I'm curious about your kind of path as an engineer going living through this, having been an engineer for a long time, what have been kind of like the big moments along the way where it's shifted your way of thinking and operating that have led you to what you do now and how you operate now?

是这样，大概一个月前吧，我去参加了那场叫『Code with Claude』的活动，听了你的分享，当时我心里就想，天啊，我一定得把 Fiona 请到这档播客上来。她对未来的思考，远远走在所有人前头——无论是行业的走向，还是大家现在用 AI 用到了哪一步。你当工程师已经 25 年了。我翻了翻你的 LinkedIn，发现你居然是从 IBM 起步的。放在今天看，那真是个截然不同的地方 [笑]。而且工程师这份工作在过去短短两年里的变化简直离谱，几乎已经是另一份工作了。人们可能都忘了，不久前还是 100% 的代码都由人来写。可现在正在逼近 100% 的代码由 AI 来写。就像 Boris 那句名言说的：写代码已经像盐一样廉价了。顺着这个话题，你们昨天刚发了一条推文，给我看一下，就是这条——Anthropic 的工程师平均每季度交付的代码量，是 2021 到 2025 年的八倍。我们会把这张图放到屏幕上。那条曲线就是平、平、平、平，然后『砰』地一下冲上了月球。所以这个角色的变化真是离谱。我很好奇，作为一个亲身经历了这一切、当了这么多年工程师的人，你这一路走来都有哪些重大的时刻，彻底改变了你的思维方式和做事方式，最终把你带到了现在的位置、现在的工作方式？

[4:03] Fiona

Oh, I I I love this kind of look back in time. Yeah, like IBM, working on DB2, the operating system services team. Like back then I was thinking, oh, how can I how can I be like the like what's a hard area of the stack? And I really thought the lower level you go closer to the OS, then it's like more hardcore and you you learn more. So that was a I was really fortunate to gotten into the IBM internship. Um but the funny thing was I would I think there's even a big shift from IBM to Microsoft. So at IBM it was I think Vim. Like I didn't have an IDE that we used. I think there might have been an Eclipse license, but for some reasons most of us didn't use it. So I remember it it was mainly like Vim and and you know, like kind of terminal debugging. And then when I joined Microsoft, I mean this is how naive I was. I didn't even know about IDEs and such and and back then you didn't really get to pick teams. Like this was early 2000s. Actually first off I should say I was so grateful that I landed the internship and the role cuz to take us all the way back in time the dot com bubble burst in 2000. And so for my graduating class like a lot of the companies weren't hiring or or were having freezes. So I'm so fortunate when Microsoft extended me an offer. And so they're like you're going to work on Visual Studio. I did not even know what Visual Studio was cuz I came from like a Unix school. So I remember to asking, oh, this cuz I was thinking, well, the name Visual Studio, I'm like, oh, is this like a a better paint program? And I could tell the look of my manager's face like, what is going on?

哦，我太喜欢这种回头看的时刻了。是啊，比如在 IBM，我做的是 DB2，在操作系统服务团队。那会儿我老琢磨，怎么才能去攻那种最难啃的层？我那时真心觉得，越往底层走、越贴近操作系统，就越硬核，学到的东西也越多。所以能进到 IBM 实习，我特别幸运。不过有意思的是，从 IBM 到微软之间也有一次巨大的转变。在 IBM，我们用的是 Vim，没有用 IDE。好像是有过一个 Eclipse 的授权，但不知怎么的我们大多数人都不用。我记得基本上就是 Vim，加上那种终端里调试。后来我加入微软——你看我当时有多天真——我连 IDE 这种东西都不知道。而且那会儿你也没法挑团队，毕竟是 2000 年代初。其实首先我得说，能拿到那份实习和职位我已经感激不尽了，因为把时间倒回去，2000 年互联网泡沫破了。所以对我们这届毕业生来说，很多公司要么不招人，要么在冻结招聘。所以微软给我发 offer 的时候，我真的太幸运了。他们跟我说，你要去做 Visual Studio。我当时压根不知道 Visual Studio 是个啥，因为我是从纯 Unix 那种学校出来的。我记得我还问了一句——因为我想，嗯，Visual Studio 这名字，听着像不像是个更高级的画图程序？我能从我经理脸上的表情看出来，那个『这是在搞什么』的眼神。

[5:30]

[laughter]

[笑]

[5:31] Fiona

But then it ended up becoming like the love of my life for the first, you know, 11 years of of my career. But that was the first time I used an IDE. So joining the Visual Studio team, seeing, oh, wow, like here's an IDE with like debuggers and you can set breakpoints and do multi-threaded debugging. Like that was also always mind-blowing for me to think about the the stepwise change. Um so yeah, like that was kind of the story going from I beam to Visual Studio. And then what I really loved actually about Visual Studio is I was on the Visual Studio editor team. So I use a VS editor to build the VS editor and that's where my whole love of dog feeding comes from. Like I I remembered I wanted to first and foremost create a delightful experience not only for myself, but for my teammates. Cuz also if we go back in that time, if you remember, I mean when did Twitter come out? Like was it two 2000 and six or something?

但后来它成了我职业生涯头 11 年的『此生挚爱』。那也是我第一次用 IDE。加入 Visual Studio 团队，看到，哇，原来 IDE 是这样的——有调试器，能打断点，还能做多线程调试。每次想到这种台阶式的飞跃，都让我觉得脑洞大开。所以是啊，这大概就是从 Vim 到 Visual Studio 的故事。而我真正最爱 Visual Studio 的一点是，我当时在 Visual Studio 的编辑器团队，所以我是用 VS 编辑器去构建 VS 编辑器——我对『吃自家狗粮』的全部热爱就是从这儿来的。我记得我当时一心想着，首先要给自己、也给我的队友们，做出一种让人愉悦的体验。因为如果我们回到那个年代，你想想，Twitter 是什么时候出来的？是 2006 年左右吗？

[6:22] Lenny

it's been around my whole life.

它在我整个有生之年里都一直存在着。

[6:24]

[laughter]

[笑]

[6:24] Fiona

But back then, like before social media, it was also harder for most engineers to um hear fast customer feedback. Like for sure there you would be user research sessions or we would have customers visit us. But you didn't get the rapid feedback that you you you you do nowadays. But back then I was so lucky because I was on VS. We ourselves gave each other so much rapid feedback cuz we were all heavy VS users on the team.

但在那个年代，社交媒体还没出现之前，大多数工程师想快速听到用户反馈是更难的。当然，肯定会有用户调研，也会有客户来拜访我们，但你拿不到现在这种即时的反馈。可那会儿我特别走运，因为我在 VS 团队，我们彼此之间就能给出大量即时反馈——因为团队里每个人都是 VS 的重度用户。

[6:49] Lenny

This episode is brought to you by our season's presenting sponsor WorkOS. What do OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor, Vercel, Replit, Sierra, Clay, and hundreds of other winning companies all have in common? They are all powered by WorkOS. If you're building a product for the enterprise, you've felt the pain of integrating single sign-on, SCIM, RBA, audit logs, and other features required by large companies. WorkOS turns those deal blockers into drop-in APIs with a modern developer platform built specifically for B2B SaaS. Literally every startup that I'm an investor in that starts to expand upmarket [music] ends up working with WorkOS. And that's because they are the best. Whether you are seed stage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer or unicorn expanding globally, WorkOS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise ready and unblocking growth. It's essentially Stripe for enterprise features. Visit workos.com to get started or just hit up their Slack where they have actual engineers waiting to answer your questions. WorkOS allows you to build faster with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience. Go to workos.com to make your app enterprise-ready today.

本期节目由我们本季的冠名赞助商 WorkOS 带来。OpenAI、Anthropic、Cursor、Vercel、Replit、Sierra、Clay，还有其他数百家成功公司，有什么共同点？它们背后都跑着 WorkOS。如果你正在做一款面向企业的产品，那你一定体会过对接单点登录、SCIM、RBAC、审计日志这些大公司必备功能的那种痛。WorkOS 把这些原本会卡死交易的东西，变成了即插即用的 API，背后是一个专为 B2B SaaS 打造的现代开发者平台。说真的，我投的每一家开始向高端市场扩张的创业公司 [音乐] 最后都用上了 WorkOS。因为它们就是最好的。无论你是想拿下第一个企业客户的种子轮创业公司，还是正在全球扩张的独角兽，WorkOS 都是你迈向『企业级就绪』、打通增长瓶颈的最快路径。它本质上就是企业级功能里的 Stripe。去 workos.com 就能上手，或者直接找他们的 Slack——那儿有真正的工程师在线等着回答你的问题。WorkOS 让你能借助赏心悦目的 API、详尽的文档和顺滑的开发者体验更快地构建。今天就去 workos.com，让你的应用做到企业级就绪。

[7:59] Lenny

People think about these milestones along the way of an engineer's journey and we forget there's also there's been like a lot of transformation over the years. Not quite what we're living through, but just like IDEs, Visual Studio. Uh so I love that I love that you're reminding us of these moments in uh the history of software engineering that that have changed the the work in a big way.

大家一想到工程师生涯里的那些里程碑，往往会忘了这些年其实也发生过很多次转变。虽然不像我们现在正经历的这么剧烈，但 IDE、Visual Studio 这些都是。所以我特别喜欢你提醒我们去看软件工程史上的这些时刻，它们都曾以很大的方式改变过这份工作。

[8:16] Fiona

Yeah, when I worked on Visual Studio back then we also shipped software on CDs. I mean [laughter] before like and and that's why there were really hard deadlines cuz you had to make sure the software is ready for us to give to manufacturing to then, you know, put on the CDs for us to then put on the shelves. And uh and then so once that was another shift when we actually started to be able to, you know, ship software online. And I think that's the interesting thing and I kind of mentioned this in my talk. It's before when you like engineering time was like like really precious resource. But you also have these really hard deadlines, for example, like printing [clears throat] software on CDs. And so back then you would do a lot more planning cuz you just wanted to make sure given the time you have, you you make the best of it. And that's the shift that, you know, like we're seeing with with uh Clockwork and Co-work is coding is no longer the bottleneck. And so now like, you know, you showed up you showed the the tweet and that graphic. So but now it's all about like where has that shift happened? Like now not only engineers but we also have designers, PMs, everybody on the Clockwork team checks in code. So like when not only more people checking in code but like kind of different disciplines, but also the throughput is so high. How do we think about verification? Like that's kind of this other shift that I'm seeing.

是啊，我当年做 Visual Studio 的时候，软件还是刻在 CD 上发行的。[笑] 在那之前——也正因为这样，那时的截止日期是真的硬，因为你得保证软件准备好，交给生产部门刻进 CD，再上架到货架上。再后来又是一次转变，就是我们终于能在线发布软件了。我觉得这里有个很有意思的点，我在分享里也提到过：以前工程师的时间是一种极其宝贵的资源，再加上你又有那种硬到不行的截止日期，比如要把软件刻进 CD。所以那会儿你会做大量得多的规划，因为你就想确保在有限的时间里把它用到极致。而现在我们在 Claude Code 和 Cowork 上看到的转变就是：写代码不再是瓶颈了。所以现在的关键变成了——这种转移究竟发生在了哪里？你刚展示了那条推文和那张图。现在不光是工程师，设计师、PM——Claude Code 团队里每个人都在提交代码。所以不仅是更多人在提交代码，而且是来自不同工种的人，再加上吞吐量高得吓人。那我们该怎么看待『验证』？这就是我看到的另一个转变。

[9:27] Lenny

Maybe just kind of set this theme that I want to have for this conversation. A lot of people are just wondering what is what is software engineering, managing software engineers, managing software and product teams look like in the future and you are living through that right now. So, you mentioned this um point about a more focus on verification, making sure the quality of the code being uh 8X is actually high and something uh that's that you know that will work. So, just like let me ask this broad question and let's kind of see where this conversation goes. What is a What does an AI-pilled software team look like in 2026?

那干脆就借这个，把我想给这次对话定的主题立起来吧。很多人都在琢磨，未来的软件工程、管理软件工程师、管理软件和产品团队，到底会是什么样子，而你此刻正活在那个未来里。你刚提到一点，就是更聚焦于『验证』，要确保那被放大了八倍的代码质量是真的高、是你心里有数能跑起来的东西。那我就问个大一点的问题，咱们看看这对话能聊到哪儿去：在 2026 年，一个『嗑了 AI』、彻底拥抱 AI 的软件团队，是什么样子？

[10:03] Fiona

Because the roles are blowing, it's shifting more to this builder uh like everybody starts being a a a builder, I would say. The other shift that I've recently done is I actually have a cloud code remote session that I enlist in all of our repos. And so, this way I have full visibility into the work that everybody's doing. And this instance it also has access to all our Slack channels and and I'll I'll have access to like how how are the metrics of of everything we track. And so, every month like I when when like I have been like, "Hey, you know what's fun? Like let's let's take a look back." Like and so, we'll actually do it together. I'll share my, you know, like cloud code you know, I've shared my screen and we we we do a cloud code session. And it's just about, "Hey, what were the focus areas? Like what were some of the the products that got shipped? How did they do? Oh, what were the feedback channels?" And and so, I even though like before I would have just used these sessions to like generate PRs and bug fixes, I actually have these sessions to enable me to have conversations with folks that I support.

因为这些角色都在被打破、在融合，整个重心更多地往『构建者』这边挪了——我会说，每个人都开始成了一个构建者。我最近做的另一个转变是，我实际上跑了一个 Claude Code 的远程会话，把我们所有的代码仓库都接进去了。这样一来，对每个人正在做的工作我都能一览无遗。这个实例还接入了我们所有的 Slack 频道，我也能看到我们追踪的各项指标都怎么样了。所以每个月——我会主动说，『嘿，知道有件事挺有意思吗？咱们一起回头看看。』然后我们真就一起做。我会把我的 Claude Code 会话——我把屏幕共享出来，我们一起跑一个 Claude Code 会话。聊的就是，『嘿，这阵子的重点方向是什么？有哪些产品上线了？它们表现怎么样？哦，反馈都从哪些渠道来？』所以，虽然以前我只会拿这些会话去生成 PR、修 bug，但现在我用这些会话来支撑我和我所服务的同事们好好聊一聊。

[11:00] Lenny

Say more about that. So, this is this is like a management technique, let's say, to help people not just ship, but actually ship better understand if they're shipping things that have impact. Is that kind of the idea here? Just like use cloud to keep on top of all the things people are shipping and then make that a conversation with them.

这个再多讲讲。所以这算是一种管理手法，对吧——帮大家不只是把东西交付出去，而是交付得更好，搞清楚他们交付的东西是不是真有影响力。是这个意思吗？就是用 Claude 来随时掌握大家在交付的所有东西，然后把这些变成跟他们对话的素材。

[11:20] Fiona

Exactly. So, like yeah, outside of just, you know, the action of shipping is how did it do in market? Or hey, did we have, you know, like did we cause some bugs? And it's okay to like I have this saying, "Make new mistakes." Like it's okay to make mistakes, just make new ones so that we're always learning cuz if you aim to make zero mistakes, like that probably means you're not, you know, moving fast enough or being a little bit too cautious. And so yeah, by by having Claude, like so then it can also look at like some like for example, actually, yeah, we were I was just looking at, oh, you know, given some of the, you know, incidents that we have, like let's look across all of this. Can we generate a theme? Like what's a good area investment for us not just especially when we think about like quality. Like are we seeing any hot spots of where there could be a gap? I think that used to be just a much more manual uh process, I would say. Like if I look back a year ago, I don't think I would have been able to, you know, have some of these insights with Claude.

完全正确。所以，除了『交付』这个动作本身之外，还有它上线后市场表现如何？或者，嘿，我们是不是引入了什么 bug？而且犯错是没关系的——我有句话常挂在嘴边：『去犯新的错误。』犯错没关系，但要犯新的，这样我们才一直在学。因为如果你的目标是零失误，那大概意味着你跑得还不够快，或者太过谨慎了。所以是啊，有了 Claude，它还能去看——比如，对，我前阵子就在看，哦，鉴于我们出过的几次事故，咱们把这些整个梳一遍。能不能归纳出一个共性？哪个领域值得我们投入，尤其是从质量的角度看，我们有没有看到哪些反复出问题的热点区域、哪里可能有缺口？这种事以前我觉得是个手工得多的过程。如果倒回一年前，我觉得我是没法靠 Claude 拿到这些洞察的。

[12:11] Lenny

Yeah, well, partly is cuz like there's that and also people weren't shipping as much, so you could just make a little bullet list. Here's the things I shipped last quarter. This feature, that feature, this feature, that feature. So I think what I'm hearing here is this is like one of the only ways to stay on top of all the things that 8 mate is shipping. So this is a really cool thread of just like how you found ways to stay on top of this 8 X increase in code. What else has worked in helping you and your team stay on top of and maintain quality of all the stuff that y'all are shipping cuz that's obviously a challenge, a bigger challenge.

对，一部分原因是这个，另一部分是那会儿大家也没交付这么多东西，所以你列个小清单就行了。这是我上季度交付的东西，这个功能、那个功能、这个、那个。所以我从你这儿听出来的是，这几乎是唯一一种能随时掌握那八倍的代码交付量的办法。这条线索特别酷——就是你怎么找到办法去跟上这八倍的代码增长。还有什么别的做法，帮到了你和你的团队跟上、并维持你们交付的所有东西的质量？因为这显然是个挑战，而且是个更大的挑战。

[12:42] Fiona

Yeah, and so definitely like the feedback channels are really important to us, but then we also get a lot of feedback and like for example, even I myself usually what my my morning ritual would be, you know, I get my morning cup of coffee and then I look at the feedback channels and then I try to pick up what are, you know, if I have some maker time, what's something that maybe I would be able to help out or what I could like see some gaps. Like that just used to be something I would do every morning. And uh yeah, I think maybe a month or two ago we we launched routines. And that's also completely changed. Like now I just have a routine that automates all this for me and then there's also it's almost like before I would, you know, be able to kind of like, you know, generate some prompts, but now with routines, it's almost like I'm, you know, having an agent help me generate the like generate the prompts and the PR. So for example, one is, "Hey, keep a look on this feedback channel, you know, what are some of the themes?" And then like when I wake up, then you know, I have a really good summary of that. And then even some like PRs that I'll be able to take a look and review.

嗯，所以对我们来说，反馈渠道绝对是极其重要的，而且我们也确实收到大量反馈。比如说，就连我自己，平常的晨间习惯就是：泡上一杯早咖啡，然后翻一翻反馈渠道，再试着挑出来——如果我手头有点动手的时间，有什么是我也许能帮上忙的，或者我能看到哪些缺口。这本来是我每天早上都会做的事。然后，嗯，大概一两个月前，我们上线了『routines』（例行任务）。这也彻底改变了局面。现在我直接设一个 routine，就能把这一整套自动帮我做掉。而且还有一点——以前我顶多能自己生成几个 prompt，但现在有了 routines，几乎就像是有个 agent 在帮我生成那些 prompt 和 PR。比如其中一个就是，『嘿，盯着这个反馈渠道，看看有哪些共性主题？』然后等我一醒来，就有一份特别好的总结摆在那儿。甚至还有一些 PR，我可以直接拿来看一看、审一审。

[13:38] Lenny

And the feedback channel, where's that feedback coming from? Is that like like emails, Twitter's, or a combo of everything?

那这个反馈渠道，反馈是从哪儿来的？是像邮件、Twitter，还是各种来源的大杂烩？

[13:45]

[laughter]

[笑]

[13:45] Fiona

Our feedback channels are definitely like we have a lot from internal and but also like emails, channels. Actually, everybody like when we all get feedback on even like when friends ping us or on LinkedIn or socials, we'll all actually like post all of that in Slack as well. And so and and we also have like of course partnerships. And so we have different channels for for all the various sources. But but that's what I mean of I need Claude's help to help me stay on top because there's so much incoming feedback.

我们的反馈渠道嘛，肯定有很大一部分来自内部，但也有邮件、各种频道。其实，每个人——我们所有人收到反馈的时候，哪怕是朋友给我们发消息，或者在 LinkedIn、社交媒体上看到的，我们都会把这些全都贴到 Slack 里。当然，我们也有各种合作伙伴关系。所以针对各种不同的来源，我们有不同的频道。但这正是我想说的——我需要 Claude 来帮我跟上，因为涌进来的反馈实在太多了。

[14:14] Lenny

Got it. Okay, so this is cool. So, this is a like a way of working that you've built to stay on top of all the stuff shipping which is this kind of daily ritual / routine where you as a manager look at what people are saying about the current state of Claude Code and Co-work and used to just like okay, someone go fix this, go fix that. Now it's like here's the PR that will fix this thing, check it out. We're ready to ship it if you want.

懂了。好，这挺酷的。所以这是一套你建立起来的工作方式，用来跟上所有正在交付的东西，是这么一种每天的晨间仪式 / 例行任务——你作为管理者，去看大家对 Claude Code 和 Cowork 当前状态都是怎么说的。以前是『行，谁去把这个修了、把那个修了』，现在变成了『喏，这就是能修好这个问题的 PR，你看一下，想发的话我们就可以发了』。

[14:40] Fiona

That's right.

没错。

[14:41] Lenny

Okay, like obviously a big challenge for people is also just code review. I imagine Claude is also doing a lot of its own code reviews. There anything there you've recently figured out that allows your teams to ship faster stuff that they are confident is great?

好，那显然，对大家来说还有一个大挑战就是代码评审。我猜 Claude 自己应该也做了很多代码评审。这方面你最近有没有摸索出什么门道，能让你的团队更快地交付那些他们有信心说『这东西很棒』的成果？

[14:54] Fiona

Yeah, and honestly, it's crazy when you think we didn't even have Claude Code Reviews last year. And so speaking of bottlenecks, that that was a really really big bottleneck of, you know, the human reviewers. So, we definitely for the important like like areas that need deep subject matter expertise, we definitely want to make sure we have the proper you know, like human still reviewing. I would say what helps us though is the more that we can automate to almost check in the framework for what good looks like. Claude is very good when you give it a framework to validate against those frameworks. So, I had mentioned like you know our late you know like recently we just updated the content design to to have a scale in it. Like my like I and this is why like um I think if you have specs or like or like like check those into the repo and then make sure the spec also keeps up to date with the code like frequently. But that's what I found like works really well of any time you have like a statement of what good looks like, get that into the repo and then Claude code review can make sure it's still matching what you set up to do.

是啊，说真的，想想看，去年我们都还没有 Claude Code Reviews，这挺疯狂的。说到瓶颈，人工 reviewer 当时真的是一个特别特别大的瓶颈。所以对于那些真正需要深度专业知识的重要领域，我们肯定还是要确保有人来 review。不过我觉得真正帮到我们的，是我们越能把「什么是好」的框架自动化地检查出来越好。你给 Claude 一个框架去对照验证，它做得非常好。比如我刚提到我们最近刚更新了内容设计、给它加了一套评分标准。所以我觉得，如果你有 spec 之类的东西，就把它们也提交进 repo，然后确保 spec 和代码经常保持同步更新。我发现这招特别管用——只要你对「什么是好」有一个明确的表述，把它放进 repo，Claude Code Review 就能帮你确保代码始终符合你设定的标准。

[15:52] Lenny

Basically, it's like a the evolution of test-driven development.

本质上，这就像是测试驱动开发的进化版。

[15:56] Fiona

Yes, for TDD it's cuz I remember that was like a a big thing my gosh maybe like in the 2000s of write the test first and then and then you can like make sure the test fails then you do actually the code. In principle, it's really good but I think I know I remember that I myself struggling a bit because it was almost like you have to eat the broccoli first. That's why I'm like ah you have to write this test first and I just get so much thrill out of shipping and building product. So, that's funny. Actually, the first bug I fixed on Claude code I remember asking Claude, "Hey, I want to do test-driven development. Help me write the test first. Make sure it fails and then we'll actually, you know, do the fix and then and then now that test pass." And the fact that that used to be, you know, like that test generation used to just be this tax that I remember having to pay. Like the fact that that's now automated and you can even revisit all these principles that have been around for a while but now they actually might be even more efficient just because you have the models that can do more of the work for you.

对，TDD。我记得这在大概 2000 年代是件大事——先写测试，确认测试会失败，然后才真正去写代码。原理上这真的很好，但我自己当时记得有点挣扎，因为感觉就像你得先把西兰花吃掉。我就是那种「啊，还得先写这个测试」的人，而我从交付、从做产品里能得到那么大的快感。所以挺好玩的，我在 Claude Code 上修的第一个 bug，我记得就是跟 Claude 说：「嘿，我想做测试驱动开发，帮我先写测试，确认它会失败，然后我们再真正去修，最后让测试通过。」过去那种生成测试就是一笔我记得不得不付的「税」。如今这事被自动化了，你甚至可以重新审视那些早就存在的原则——但现在它们可能反而更高效了，因为有模型能替你做更多的活。

[16:51] Lenny

Yeah, like that's it's so unfair. It just writes the test for you first.

对，这简直太不公平了，它直接就先把测试给你写好了。

[16:55]

[laughter]

[笑]

[16:56] Lenny

So, on this point of builders, one of my favorite slides from your talk that um I want to ask you about is who you are hiring and who what you look for in people. And so, I'll read what you said there and I want to hear more here. So, the two profiles that you now look for when you're hiring are creative builders with product sense and deep systems experts for the hard parts.

说到「builder」，你演讲里我最喜欢的一张幻灯片我想问问你，就是关于你们在招什么样的人、你看重人的哪些特质。我先把你当时说的念一下，然后想多听你讲讲。你们现在招人主要看两类人：一类是有产品 sense 的创造型 builder，另一类是能搞定硬骨头的深度系统专家。

[17:18] Fiona

Yeah, the deep subject matter expertise. Like for example, when I first joined Cloud Code, we had really great kind of like product generalists. And then I realized, oh, we were missing folks with systems background. And so, that was definitely an area that we we needed more folks with kind of like systems and distributed systems expertise. And so, I would say whatever are the parts that it's all about trust but verify. The models are really good, but there are definitely a lot of areas that still need verification. And so, wherever you need the deep subject matter expertise, I would say that's, you know, an area to definitely still invest in. And the other one is kind of like the the product the product sense works almost like the dreamers. Like these are folks that usually will be like, "Oh my gosh, I'm really passionate about a product." And they have an idea, they build it, and then it's always like looking at the feedback, and then iterating, and polishing, and making sure that the product is a delightful experience. Like owning that product end-to-end. Uh that's that's like another skill set that served us really well on Cloud Code.

对，深度的专业知识。比如我刚加入 Claude Code 时，我们有一批很厉害的产品通才。后来我意识到，哦，我们缺的是有系统背景的人。所以那确实是一个我们需要更多人手的领域——懂系统、懂分布式系统的专家。我会说，凡是讲究「信任但要验证」的部分。模型真的很强，但确实有很多领域仍然需要验证。所以哪里需要深度的专业知识，我会说那就是绝对仍然值得投入的地方。另一类人则更偏产品 sense，他们几乎像是「梦想家」。这种人通常会说：「天哪，我对某个产品特别有热情。」他们有想法，把它做出来，然后总是盯着反馈、不断迭代、打磨，确保产品是一种让人愉悦的体验，端到端地把这个产品扛在自己肩上。这是另一种在 Claude Code 上让我们受益匪浅的技能组合。

[18:19] Lenny

This super resonates. There's this word ambition. I don't know if you used it, but that's what I thought of as you were talking. That's been coming up a bunch recently in the podcast and in other work I've been doing. There's this 10X engineer I was talking to the other day, and he was just like, "I used to like I heard about a feature idea, like I have someone's like, 'Hey, we should build this.' And I was like, 'No, that's really hard and complicated.' And he's like, 'But now I'm like, no, no, that's so possible. I just ask Cloud Code to do it.' And it just does it. And it's this whole mindset shift. And he's just realizing now it's about how ambitious can you be? Like everything is now possible in theory. Now it's about how ambitious and how big can you think versus just like, 'Okay, it's all these stupid little features and things I have to unblock.' Does that Does that resonate? Is that something that you think about?

这话太戳我了。有个词叫「野心（ambition）」，我不确定你刚才有没有用到，但你说的时候我脑子里冒出来的就是这个词。最近在播客里、在我做的其他工作里，这个词反复出现。前几天我跟一个 10x 工程师聊天，他就说：「我以前一听到某个功能想法，比如有人说『嘿，我们该把这个做出来』，我会想『不行，这太难太复杂了』。但现在我会想，不不不，这太可行了，我直接让 Claude Code 去做就行了，它就真的做出来了。」这是一整套心态的转变。他现在意识到，关键在于你能有多大的野心——理论上一切都变得可能了。现在的问题是你能有多大的野心、能把格局想得多大，而不是纠结于『好吧，又是这些蠢得要命的小功能、一堆等着我去解的卡点』。这跟你有共鸣吗？这是你会去想的事情吗？

[19:06] Fiona

Yeah, so actually I was just catching up with an engineer yesterday, and Um, uh, actually is not a mobile engineer by trade, but we really needed to, uh, update this feature to also have, uh, a mobile footprint. And it was just amazing. Like he's like, "You know what?" Cuz it it it and it's common cuz you might think, "Wait, but I don't I'm not like an Android expert." But now, thanks to Claude, actually I can actually have a partner and actually also do this on the mobile surfaces. And so that definitely resonates. It's like the it's lifted the ceiling of what and anyone is able to do.

有，其实我昨天刚跟一位工程师聊过。他本职上并不是移动端工程师，但我们当时确实很需要给这个功能也做出移动端的呈现。结果太惊艳了。他就说：「你知道吗？」因为这种情况很常见，你可能会想「等等，可我又不是 Android 专家」。但现在多亏了 Claude，我真的能有个搭档，把这事也在移动端做出来。所以这绝对让我有共鸣。它把任何人能做到的事的天花板都抬高了。

[19:38] Lenny

Let me follow that thread. As the role has transformed in such a crazy way, some people are thriving, some people super frustrated, unhappy, fighting, resisting. What do you see common across the people that are doing really well, the engineers that have adapted and are thriving, versus the engineers and, you know, even outside engineering that are just like frustrated and having a bad time?

我顺着这条线问下去。当这个角色发生了如此疯狂的转变，有些人如鱼得水，有些人则非常受挫、不开心、在对抗、在抵触。那些适应得很好、活得很滋润的工程师——还有工程之外的人——和那些一直很受挫、过得很难受的人之间，你观察到他们身上有什么共同点？

[20:04] Fiona

I would say that a growth mindset really, really helps. Like actually even before, um, AI tooling, I found that has been just so valuable. And I I learned that a lot. Actually it was the shift from that, um, Microsoft to Meta. That was where I first real That first year I'm like, "Oh, this is what having a growth mindset really means." It's really this concept of always be learning. Be also what served you to get you to this point may not uh, will serve you no longer. But it's really hard because, of course, everybody like we all, you know, we've all gotten to the state by acting or, you know, like operating in a certain way. And so sometimes it is a little bit scary to think, "Wait, you're ask like but I've been successful so far. You're asking me to change what has made me successful." And so I I would say like the growth mindset is is really, really has has really served me well and I think it's also served others well, um, that that I notice. Like always leaning in with curiosity and always being able to learn. Um, and then in terms of like the frustration, I think sometimes I also see a little bit of fear. And so my advice there is at least this is how just in life I cuz we all have and fear is of course an evolutionary like I I didn't study anthropology, but I think it you know, it makes sense, right? It helps us make sure we were able to survive and not get eaten and you know, by by larger predators. But for anything that you know, that that there is a fear my advice is kind of lean in and ask, "Okay, is there some what can I do about it? What is within my control?" Cuz sometimes the frustration comes from fear and feeling like but everything is outside of my control and so it's happening to me. And so if you think about, "Okay, what is in your control?" Um it instead of happening to you, is it happening for you? And then what's what's something that you might be able to kind of like do and change? Like I felt that's been helpful cuz if not it it it it is super frustrating to have the fear and then feeling like everything's outside of your control. Like I actually remembered um when I was in actually when I was in high It's funny when we were going back to IBM. When I was in high school, I actually didn't go into computer science or engineering. Like I really want to be a visual artist. And this is how far back we go. Back then computers were really expensive. I actually didn't even have access to a computer. My first computer with access to computer was grade nine I think in high school. I don't even know this happens in high school anymore. My high school had a typing class. You know, a typing class just to learn how to type on a keyboard and learn to be really proficient and that was my first time and then you know, the next class was maybe like some HTML programming. So anyways, it it it but the reason why I fell in love with it was while what I love about art is creating and being able if you have an idea, you can go ahead and create and tell story. And then I realized, "Oh, computers and programming, you know, that that's that's enables me to do that." So anyways, I I tried to really fast try to make up for all the, you know, science classes for me to get into university, but I had this fear of, "Oh, but how will I afford to get into an engineering school?" And it was this big unknown. I grew up in Ontario, so I was very grateful. I knew there was an Ontario, you know, school assistance program, OSAP, I think it's called, which I'm very grateful for, but I didn't know how much of that would cover my tuition or like expenses, and it was just this unknown, and it would be like a year a year out. And I remember thinking, "Okay, what can I what can I do about it?" And then as as luck would have it, the National Bank of Canada just posted this flyer in our high school saying, "Hey, we're hiring high school interns to be a bank teller." And I remembered, "Oh, that like I And of course it was going to be minimum wage, but I I I I thought that that could be a lifeline." But it was funny cuz the class I hated the most in high school was accounting, so I don't know if I'd be any good at it at all, but I signed up to be a bank teller, and that ended up being such a great decision cuz I worked all summer, saved up, and then then actually I was able to work as a bank teller on the weekends. So, like yeah, well I would went to I would go to school Monday to Friday, and then on Saturday I'd be a bank teller, and that ended up being this lifeline that enabled me to, you know, like pay for all my school expenses. Um and you know, we talked about the the year 2000 dot com crash, then when folks weren't hiring as much interns, actually I continued being a bank teller for for two two years. And And so, but but like that was the one action I thought I could take that was within my control to try to counter this fear I have of if I'm really going to go down this path, I don't even know if I could have afforded to go to school. So, that's probably my other advice of like growth mindset, and the source of, you know, frustration or anxiety, if it's coming from, you know, the like see is there some Is there one action that's within your control that you can take um to, you know, so it it it like cuz I think there's you you there there was a saying like do something What would you do if you're not afraid actually? Those were my two favorite sayings before like what would you do if you're not afraid and do something scary once in a while cuz that's also usually how we grow. Um I found that when you're when you're really good and professional at what you do, you're kind of at peak, you know, like maximum efficiency, but then how do you keep growing is you then do something scary that you might not have done before and yeah, you will cut have a dip because you need to learn. But that's kind of how you um keep pushing yourself to learn.

我会说，成长型心态真的真的很有帮助。其实早在 AI 工具出现之前，我就发现这一点极其宝贵。我自己也是花了很大功夫才学到的。其实是从微软跳到 Meta 的那次转变让我第一次真正——头一年我就想：「哦，原来这才是拥有成长型心态真正的意思。」它的核心其实就是「永远在学习」。还有就是，把你带到今天这一步的东西，可能往后就不再管用了。但这很难，因为我们当然都是靠着某种做事方式、某种运作方式才走到今天的。所以有时候去想「等等，可我到目前为止一直挺成功的，你却要我改掉让我成功的那些东西」，确实有点吓人。我会说，成长型心态真的真的让我受益良多，我也注意到它让别人受益良多——总是带着好奇心去投入，总是能去学习。至于受挫这一面，我有时也会看到一点点恐惧。我的建议是——至少这是我在生活里的做法，因为我们都会有恐惧，而恐惧当然是进化层面的东西，我没学过人类学，但我想这是说得通的，对吧？它帮我们活下来、不被更大的捕食者吃掉。但对于任何让你心生恐惧的东西，我的建议是去靠近它、去问：「好，我能为此做点什么？什么是在我掌控之内的？」因为有时候受挫感来自恐惧，来自一种「可一切都在我掌控之外、是它在『冲我』发生」的感觉。如果你换个角度想「好，什么是在我掌控之内的」，那它就不再是「冲你」发生（happening to you），而是「为你」发生（happening for you）。然后有没有什么是你或许能去做、去改变的？我觉得这很有用，因为不然的话，又有恐惧、又觉得一切都不在自己掌控之内，真的会特别让人崩溃。其实我想起——好玩的是我们刚聊回 IBM——我读高中那会儿，我其实并没有去学计算机或工程。我当时真的很想当一个视觉艺术家。可见我们要往回追溯多远。那时候电脑特别贵，我自己其实连电脑都接触不到。我第一次能用上电脑，大概是高中九年级。我都不知道现在高中还有没有这种课了——我的高中有一门打字课，就是教你怎么在键盘上打字、练到很熟练，那是我第一次接触；再下一门课可能是教点 HTML 编程之类的。总之，我之所以爱上它，是因为我喜欢艺术的地方在于「创造」，在于只要你有一个想法，就能动手去创造、去讲故事。然后我意识到：「哦，电脑和编程能让我做到这一点。」所以我拼命想赶紧补上那些为了进大学要修的理科课。但我当时有一个恐惧：「可我怎么付得起读工程学院的钱？」这是个很大的未知数。我在安大略长大，所以我特别感激——我知道有个安大略的助学项目，叫 OSAP，我对它非常感激，但我不知道它能覆盖我多少学费或开销，这就是个未知数，而且还要等上整整一年。我记得当时想：「好，我能为此做点什么？」然后机缘巧合，加拿大国家银行正好在我们高中贴了张传单，说：「嘿，我们在招高中实习生当银行柜员。」我心想：「哦，当然那肯定是最低工资，但我觉得那可能是一根救命稻草。」好玩的是，我高中最讨厌的课就是会计，所以我都不知道自己能不能干得来。但我还是报名去当了银行柜员，结果证明这是个特别棒的决定，因为我整个暑假都在打工、攒钱，之后我还能在周末当柜员。所以你看，我周一到周五去上学，周六就去当银行柜员，那成了一根救命稻草，让我得以付清所有的学费开销。而且你知道，我们聊过 2000 年那次互联网泡沫破裂，那时候大家招实习生没那么多了，于是我其实当了整整两年的银行柜员。所以——但那就是我当时想到的、在我掌控之内能采取的那一个行动，去对抗我心里那个恐惧：如果我真要走这条路，我甚至不知道自己付不付得起学费。所以这大概是我另一条建议：成长型心态；以及受挫或焦虑的根源——如果它来自你看见的某种东西，那么有没有某个在你掌控之内、你能采取的行动？因为我觉得有句话说得好——做点什么。其实是「如果你不害怕，你会去做什么？」这是我以前最喜欢的两句话——「如果你不害怕，你会去做什么」，还有「偶尔去做一件让你害怕的事」，因为那通常也正是我们成长的方式。我发现，当你把自己的事做得又好又专业、几乎到了巅峰、达到了最高效率时，那你要怎么继续成长呢？就是去做一件你以前可能没做过的、让你害怕的事，是的，你会经历一段低谷，因为你得重新学习。但这恰恰是你不断逼自己去学习的方式。

[25:22] Lenny

The quote that I have probably used the most on this podcast of all quotes is the cave you fear contains the treasure you seek.

在所有金句里，我在这个播客上引用得最多的一句大概就是：你所恐惧的那个洞穴里，藏着你所追寻的宝藏。

[25:30] Fiona

Oh, I love that.

哦，我太喜欢这句了。

[25:32] Lenny

Yeah, and it's so true. Just like like I forget who put this, but just the thing that is scariest is like that's a compass towards that's what you should be doing.

对，而且太真实了。我忘了这是谁说的了，但那个最让你害怕的东西，恰恰是一个指南针，指向你应该去做的事。

[25:41] Fiona

Mhm. I'm going to I'm going to steal your quote.

嗯，我要把你这句金句偷走。

[25:43] Lenny

Yeah, then please do. Like, you know, there's like don't do all the scary things, like maybe don't jump off a cliff, but maybe in career in career moves it's probably a good a good choice. So, kind of following this path, something that I know that is important to you, something you think about that I also think about is this kind of gap that is forming between people that are just like leaning into AI, killing it, doing super well, and then people that are just like not. And this is like a scary time for people that may be left behind in this uh new world that is emerging. Uh I know you spend a lot of time with small businesses. That's a big passion of yours to help people learn how to use AI in their work. Talk about just like how you think about that and what maybe we should be thinking about to help folks, you know, stay not not fall behind basically.

尽管拿去。当然啦，别去做所有让你害怕的事，比如别真去跳崖，但在职业选择上，这大概是个不错的选择。顺着这条线，有件我知道对你很重要、你也会去想的事，我自己也在想，就是现在正在形成的一道鸿沟——一边是那些全身心拥抱 AI、玩得风生水起、做得超棒的人，另一边是那些完全不碰的人。在这个正在浮现的新世界里，对那些可能被甩在后面的人来说，这是一个挺吓人的时刻。我知道你花了很多时间和小企业打交道，帮助人们学会在工作中用 AI 是你的一大热情所在。聊聊你怎么看这件事，以及我们或许该思考些什么，去帮助大家——基本上就是别掉队。

[26:30] Fiona

Oh, I I I love this. Yeah, it's one of my passion topics cuz uh I kind of mentioned, you know, like growing up in Canada. Um and I I moved there when I was a kid. Uh I was born in Hong Kong. So, I didn't speak any English and my parents had to work all the time. So, my grandma who is the best grandma that anyone could have ever asked for. I know everybody thinks their grandma's the best, but I really was so lucky. I had the best grandma. She moved with us uh just to take care of me while my parents were working. But neither of us spoke English, but I was able to learn how to speak English by you know going to school and speaking with classmates. And when I think about my grandma, it was a very alienating for her to be you know in the country new country where and you know back then it wasn't as walkable. Um but one summer I remembered we just happened to find this little yarn shop uh that was owned by a lady that also spoke Cantonese. And so that became every week to this yarn shop this summer and my grandma found her knitting circle and then I think I learned how to do like macrame. Uh which I think is having a comeback by the way. It's all it's always funny to see what's

哦，我太爱这个话题了。是的，这是我特别有热情的话题之一。我刚提到我在加拿大长大，小时候搬过去的。我出生在香港，所以一句英语都不会说，而我父母得一直工作。所以我外婆——她是任何人能求来的最好的外婆。我知道每个人都觉得自己外婆最好，但我是真的太幸运了，我有最好的外婆。她跟我们一起搬了过去，就为了在我父母工作的时候照顾我。但我们俩都不会说英语，而我能学会说英语，是靠着去上学、跟同学交流。可我一想到我外婆，那对她来说是一种特别孤立无援的处境——身处一个陌生的新国家，而且那时候不像现在这么适合步行。但有一年夏天，我记得我们碰巧发现了一家小小的毛线店，老板娘也会说广东话。于是那个夏天，每周去这家毛线店成了固定节目，我外婆找到了她的编织小圈子，而我大概也是那时学会了做马克拉梅（macramé）编织——顺带一提，我觉得这玩意儿正在卷土重来。看什么东西又火回来，总是挺好玩的——

[27:32] Lenny

Macrame coming back?

马克拉梅要火回来了？

[27:33] Fiona

Macrame I think yeah. You heard it here first on Lenny's podcast. I think macrame's coming back.

马克拉梅，我觉得是的。各位在 Lenny 的播客上第一个听到这个消息——我觉得马克拉梅要卷土重来了。

[27:38] Lenny

All right.

好吧。

[27:39] Fiona

Um but but that was probably where my love came from. I'm like oh wow this little small business created this wonderful sense of community. And I've been really fortunate to you know become friends with all the small businesses that that I love. So that that's kind of like where the passion comes from. And then um what how it happened was I was using Co-work for my own uh business uh expensing travel. I don't know what it is. I really don't like doing business expensing. And when I was using Co-work, it was magic. I'm like all these things that I don't like to do like Co-work is doing for me. And I'm like wait a minute all my friends and honestly small business owners they really bust their butt. Like they work incredibly hard um and they use you know like sometimes might be operating on really small margins. And so I thought if it's if Cloud Co-work is so good at helping me do my little you know business travel expense, this would be huge for it cuz I I see my friends sometimes sitting at the bar with stacks of bills and all they're doing is invoicing and expensing. And and I think nobody actually really likes to do it. So that's kind of uh where it came from. And then so yeah I remembered uh like helping uh a couple of them onboard. And and uh it was also very humbling to to see them go through our onboarding flow. Actually, it found some really good bugs. So, [snorts] it was really like a win-win, but it was also delightful for me cuz they also use Coda in in ways that I I wouldn't have thought about cuz I was all fixated on look at how it is amazing with PDFs and invoice. And then, um you know, one of my friends who who runs two restaurants, she's like, "Oh my gosh, this folder I have is like a junk drawer of like it it's basically our, you know, documents folder just becomes this junk drawer of every or downloads like just a you know, like junk drawer. And she's like, "I know I have a few menus in here and I can't find it." And I'm like, "Well, let's ask Coda." So, we gave Coda access to directory, found the menus. And then, she uses it in a really unique way. She goes like, "I want to make sure I keep my prices reasonable for locals and tourists." So, she goes, "Hey Claude, look across my style of cuisine in this area is a comparable." And it came back with really cool almost like market analysis. And she goes, "Hey, I actually just went to that restaurant in Seattle and that was pretty good." Um so, I learn something every time. And uh and yeah, they've been like giving me great feedback as well.

但那大概就是我这份热爱的源头吧。我当时就想，哇，这家小小的店竟然营造出了这么美好的一种社区感。而我也很幸运，跟我喜欢的那些小企业都成了朋友。这大概就是这份热情的来处。至于后来怎么发生的，是我用 Cowork 来处理我自己业务上的差旅报销。我不知道为什么，我就是特别不喜欢做业务报销。而当我用 Cowork 的时候，简直像魔法——所有这些我不喜欢做的事，Cowork 都替我做了。然后我就想，等等，我所有的朋友、说实话那些小企业主，他们真的拼了命地干活，工作得无比辛苦，而且有时候可能还在很薄的利润里挣扎。所以我想，如果 Claude Cowork 这么擅长帮我搞定我那点业务差旅报销，那这对他们来说将是天大的帮助——因为我看到我的朋友们有时坐在吧台后面、面前堆着一摞摞的账单，而他们做的全是开发票和报销。我觉得其实没人真的喜欢干这个。这大概就是它的来处。然后，是的，我记得帮他们其中几个做了上手引导。看着他们走完我们的 onboarding 流程，也让我特别谦卑——其实还真发现了几个挺不错的 bug，所以这真是个双赢；但这对我来说也很愉快，因为他们用 Claude 的方式是我根本想不到的——我当时一门心思盯着它处理 PDF 和发票有多厉害。然后，我有个开了两家餐厅的朋友，她就说：「天哪，我这个文件夹简直就是个『杂物抽屉』——基本上我们的文档文件夹就变成了一个什么都往里塞的杂物抽屉，下载文件夹也是，就是个杂物抽屉。我知道里面有几份菜单，可我怎么都找不到。」我就说：「那我们问问 Claude 吧。」于是我们给了 Claude 访问那个目录的权限，把菜单找了出来。然后她用了一种特别独特的方式——她说：「我想确保我的定价对本地人和游客来说都合理。」于是她就说：「嘿 Claude，帮我横向看看我这片地区里跟我同一类菜系的同行价格。」结果它返回了一份特别酷的、几乎像市场分析一样的东西。她还说：「嘿，我其实刚去过西雅图那家餐厅，挺不错的。」所以我每次都能学到点新东西，是的，他们也一直给我特别棒的反馈。

[29:48] Lenny

So, the question then is just like how do we how do we spread this to everybody? Because as you see, you know, there's like like a lot of people are just like, "I don't have time for this." Or "I hate AI." It's just like I want to ignore it. Is it like talking is it just talking about this sharing examples? What do you think? How do it What's like a way to make a dent in this uh in this problem?

那接下来的问题就是，我们要怎么把这个普及给每一个人？因为你也看到了，很多人就是那种「我没空搞这个」或者「我讨厌 AI」，就想着我要无视它。那靠什么呢？是不是就靠多聊、靠分享案例？你怎么看？要在这个问题上撕开一个口子，有什么办法？

[30:07] Fiona

For all of us as especially to your listeners are probably very AI pilled. If there's anyone either in their community or their family that that has like I would start with what has something that really you felt um has that you really have felt has made a meaningful life change uh for you with with the AI tools. And then, seeing if that is a conversation starter for cuz for me AI is a tool. Again, it's the whole light in the dark. I totally understand the frustrating part as well. But for me, I'm also felt like knowledge is power. Like have to learn how to use the tools because it could actually, you know, be the light part of that light and dark equation. So, I think that that would that's something that I would love everybody's help with of if there's whether it's a community member or even if there's a business you really like and think, "Hey, have you ever It's It's It's a little awkward to start." Like I remember when I first reached out to my friends, I'm like, cuz I don't talk about what I do with them a lot, but I'm like, "Hey, I kind of you know, work in AI. Can I Can I It sounds It's It's even unnatural for me to do cuz I'm you know, like, I'm like, "Hey, can I show you what you know, Codoxer is possible?" And and and then but it end up we end up having a lot of fun. So, yeah, I would love for like that conversation starter would be great of Yeah, cuz I just want to make sure we keep sharing the the knowledge and you know, making the tool equitable cuz if not, I'm concerned that the divide grows larger and larger.

我们所有人——尤其是你的听众，大概都已经被 AI「上脑」了。如果你的社区或家人里有谁还没入门，我会从一件你真正觉得给你的生活带来了有意义改变的事说起——一件你真心觉得 AI 工具给你带来实质改变的事，然后看看这能不能成为一个打开话匣子的引子。因为对我来说，AI 是一种工具，又回到那个「光明与黑暗」的比喻。受挫的那一面我也完全理解。但对我来说，我也觉得知识就是力量——必须学会怎么用这些工具，因为它真的可能成为那个「光明与黑暗」方程里的光明那一面。所以我觉得，这是一件我特别希望大家都能搭把手的事：无论是社区里的一个人，还是哪怕有一家你特别喜欢的店，你心想「嘿，你有没有试过……」——开口确实有点尴尬。我记得我第一次联系我的朋友们时，因为我平时不太跟他们聊我做什么工作，我就说：「嘿，我算是在做 AI 这块……我能不能……」对我来说这话说出口都觉得不自然，因为我会想：「嘿，我能给你看看 Claude 能做到什么吗？」但最后我们总能玩得很开心。所以是的，我特别希望能多一些这样开启对话的引子，因为我就是想确保我们持续分享这份知识、让这个工具变得人人可及。因为不然的话，我担心这道鸿沟会越来越大。

[31:29] Lenny

Me, too. I find that sharing use cases as you said is it's so powerful. I was just using Codoxer the other day to fill out my my son's camp forms. And just sharing that on Twitter just like a lot of people are like, "Oh, wow, I didn't think about that." Yeah, it's just like these little things you don't think about that Codoxer and Claude can do. Kind of along those lines, speaking of Codoxer, if you think about it, Anthropic has been super early on uncovering these really big opportunities ahead of everyone else. For example, coding. So far ahead. Like realizing this is a huge market. Whether it was intentional or not, uh it was just like, "Whoa, that's maybe the biggest new business opportunity in history." Uh and then Codoxer is a great example just leaning into knowledge work. Let's just make Let's just solve all the knowledge work. Why not? So far ahead of everyone else. Another element is it feels like a focus on the personality of the model, something you all were very early on just how important that is. Not just for the experience, but just also the intelligence and success of the model. What is it that you think Anthropic and the teams do differently that allows you to uncover these opportunities and then just go big on them before other labs, let's say.

我也担心。我发现像你说的那样分享用例特别有力量。我前几天就用 Claude 帮我填我儿子的夏令营表格，光是把这事发到 Twitter 上，就有一大堆人说：「哦哇，我都没想到还能这么用。」对，就是这些你想不到的小事，Claude 都能做。顺着这个思路，说到 Claude——你仔细想想，Anthropic 一直特别早地就发现了那些别人还没看到的、真正巨大的机会。比如编程，遥遥领先，早早意识到这是个巨大的市场。不管是不是有意为之，反正就是「哇，这可能是史上最大的新商业机会」。然后 Claude 的 Cowork 又是个绝佳例子，全力扑向知识工作——干脆把所有知识工作都给解决了，为什么不呢？又是遥遥领先于所有人。还有一点，是你们对模型「人格」的重视，你们很早就意识到这件事有多重要——不只是为了体验，也是为了模型的智能和成功。你觉得 Anthropic 和团队做了什么不一样的事，让你们能比其他实验室——这么说吧——更早地发现这些机会，然后全力押注上去？

[32:43] Fiona

Well, I haven't worked in any other labs, so I'm not sure how other labs operate, but I I will share like yeah, with um and like actually on the Claude Code team as well and co-work like we also keep an eye on like latent demand. Now, we're very fortunate with coding as a use case because so many ants that we were, you know, like our our own first customers and we're able to do like really rapid feedback and and so I think um but latent demand has has been like a like for example, like co-work we noticed hey, a lot of folks that were not necessarily coders were were using Claude Code. Can we make that experience better? Um I think that's actually even outside of Anthropic that served me well in in all the different products I've worked on. Um but uh and and actually it's funny you mentioned like, you know, the the Claude's for uh you know, my passion with small business after I, you know, had had a few of these visits, we ended up now launching Claude for small business. Which is really cool cuz I and and it totally didn't come from me, so I'm not taking credit, but I noticed it too of like when I was working with and they because they were asking me, oh, does it have this plugin right this plugin? I'm like, I think it does and then we have to, you know, go and search for it. So, actually now Claude with small business bundles it all up, so inside co-work you just have this little toggle. And uh there were there were there was a wonderful team that's been kind of like uh you know, doing uh co-work sessions with small business that probably found hey, we could have like an efficiency gain here. Um or like make the experience better. And so I would I would say like always uh not only for products that you're on like making sure you're always you know, listening to feedback and always iterating, trying to make a delightful, reliable, high-quality experience, but then also keeping an eye out for oh, what are these other use cases that that are popping up and can we also make that experience better? Um it's it's interesting like after like, you know, in software I've learned that customers will use your product in ways that you did not intend for good or for bad. And so the the best way is really like it's all about the iteration learn and keep close to the feedback.

嗯，我没在别的实验室待过，所以不太清楚其他实验室是怎么运作的，但我可以分享一下——在 Claude Code 团队、在 Cowork，我们也会留意一种叫「潜在需求（latent demand）」的东西。在编程这个用例上我们非常幸运，因为那么多 Anthropic 自己人就是我们最早的客户，我们能做到极其快速的反馈循环。但「潜在需求」一直是个——比如 Cowork，我们注意到，嘿，有很多本身并不是程序员的人却在用 Claude Code，那我们能不能把那种体验做得更好？我觉得，其实哪怕在 Anthropic 之外，这一点也让我在我做过的各种产品上都受益匪浅。还有，挺好玩的，你刚提到 Claude——我对小企业的那份热情，在我做了几次这样的探访之后，我们最后还真的推出了 Claude for Small Business。这特别酷，而且完全不是出自我，所以我不抢功，但我自己也注意到了：当我跟他们一起用的时候，他们老问我，哦，它有没有这个插件、有没有那个插件？我会说「我觉得有」，然后我们还得去搜一搜。所以现在 Claude for Small Business 直接把这些都打包好了，在 Cowork 里你就有一个小小的开关。有一支很棒的团队一直在跟小企业做 Cowork 会话，大概就是他们发现「嘿，这里能有个效率提升」，或者能把体验做得更好。所以我会说，永远——不只是对你正在做的产品，要确保你始终在倾听反馈、始终在迭代，努力做出一种让人愉悦、可靠、高质量的体验——同时也要留意，哦，还有哪些别的用例正在冒出来，我们能不能也把那种体验做得更好？挺有意思的，做软件让我学到一点：用户会以你根本没设想过的方式来用你的产品，好的坏的都有。所以最好的办法真的就是——一切都在于迭代、学习、紧贴反馈。

[34:40] Lenny

Wait in demand. That's a that term's come up a bunch on this podcast.

潜在需求。这个词在这个播客上反复出现过好几次了。

[34:43] Fiona

It's on there.

它确实在那儿。

[34:44] Lenny

Might be something there.

也许这里头有点门道。

[34:45] Lenny

So essentially it's just watching closely for behavior that you may not have expected or that is just kind of emerging. And then just going big on that essentially, exploring it, building something.

所以本质上，就是密切留意那些你可能没预料到、或者正在悄悄冒头的行为，然后基本上就全力押注在那上面——去探索它、去做点东西出来。

[34:56] Fiona

Yeah. And having a hypothesis for hey, like because actually when you see people jumping through hoops to make something work, can you actually make that an even like a smoother and and better experience?

对。而且要有一个假设——因为说实话，当你看到人们为了把某件事跑通而绞尽脑汁、各种折腾时，你能不能把那件事做成一种更顺滑、更好的体验？

[35:08] Lenny

Yeah. Coming back to the way that your teams operate, you guys are so at the edge of what's possible. And the role of just engineering has changed so much. I'm curious what you think is the next kind of frontier of how engineering in particular is going to change. Is it like I don't know, fleets of agents? Is it something else? Just like what's like the next big shift to how engineers operate that either you're already working on or implementing or just like it's starting to happen?

嗯。回到你们团队的运作方式，你们真的处在「可能性」的最前沿，而工程这个角色已经变了太多。我很好奇，你觉得工程——尤其是工程——接下来变化的下一个前沿会是什么？是不是类似……我也说不好，成群的 agent（fleets of agents）？还是别的什么？就是说，工程师运作方式上的下一个大转变会是什么，无论是你们已经在做、在落地的，还是刚刚开始发生的？

[35:36] Fiona

I would say we're shifting more towards async, like asynchronous. And so to your point, the the fleets of agent, like that that's why routines is so interesting cuz almost like I used to be like you know, doing a prompt and synchronously. And then I would like maybe like kick off different prompts async asynchronously. But now I can actually have a routine that actually generates, you know, these these prompts for me. So it's almost like the level of abstraction keeps pulling up a little bit. And so I I would yeah, I wish I had a crystal ball to see what this is going to look like. It'll be fun actually for you and me to revisit a year from now.

我会说，我们正越来越往异步（async）的方向转。所以照你说的，「成群的 agent」——这正是 routines（例行任务）有意思的地方，因为它几乎就像……我以前是那种同步地敲一个 prompt，然后可能再异步地零散启动几个不同的 prompt。但现在我其实可以有一个 routine，由它来替我生成这些 prompt。所以这几乎就像，抽象的层级在不断往上拔一点点。所以我会说……是的，我真希望我有个水晶球能看到这将来会变成什么样。其实一年后你我再回来聊这个，一定会很好玩。

[36:09] Lenny

No, I I want to hear more about this. This is So help us understand what is what is routines and then what is what do you say asynchronous? You're writing a prompt and it just kind of goes off and is it writing it immediately? Talk about what this actually looks like.

不，我想多听听这个。这真是……帮我们搞清楚，routines 到底是什么？还有你说的「异步」是什么意思？你写一个 prompt，它就自己跑出去了——它是立刻就执行吗？说说这实际上到底是什么样子。

[36:21] Fiona

Uh yeah, so routines is like how you can like so if you remember I was talking about my what I used to do is always like you know, wake up with my morning cup of coffee and hey, look at through this slack channel for me. But then now like I have a routine that I set to run every morning at a certain time to say hey.

嗯，是这样，routines 就是——还记得我说过我以前总爱做的事吗，就是每天早上端着我那杯咖啡醒来，然后「嘿，帮我把这个 Slack 频道看一遍」。但现在呢，我设了一个 routine，让它每天早上某个固定时间自动跑，去说「嘿……」。

[36:38] Fiona

Mhm, that's right. But then it's able to actually go and kick off agents on your behalf. And so that's cuz like that's what like you know, even you know, before it would be oh you you could like yeah, do a cron job to automate like but now it's hey, look at these feedback and then if you're seeing some of these bugs that what are some polish fixes that you might be able to to knock out and then it would like go kick off and then I wake up and I end up having PR's that I could review versus before which is still more of a kind of different agents that and then it's still I'm still thinking about okay, now what do I do with this information? So it's like that higher level abstraction of okay, now how can I actually write a routine that also basically does prompts for me for spawning different agents. So I think we'll we'll move more towards that kind of like asynchronous style of working.

嗯，没错。而它还能真正替你去启动 agent。这就是关键——你知道，以前最多是「哦，你可以设个 cron job 来自动化某件事」，但现在是「嘿，看看这些反馈，如果你发现了其中一些 bug，有哪些打磨性的小修复是你或许能顺手搞定的」，然后它就会去启动，等我一觉醒来，我手上就有一堆可以 review 的 PR 了——而不像以前那样，仍然停留在各种各样不同的 agent 上，然后我还得自己想「好吧，那我现在拿这些信息怎么办」。所以这就是那种更高层级的抽象：好，现在我怎么才能去写一个 routine，让它基本上也替我去敲 prompt、去派生不同的 agent。所以我觉得我们会越来越往那种异步的工作方式转。

[37:22] Lenny

So interesting. So like in a sense as a manager, you have these kind of things you do daily and what you're saying here is you can set up these prompts that kind of check in every day on the things you would have be be doing like how are the projects going? What's falling behind? What should I unblock? Who is who's struggling? What's how do I fix some improve some some polish? And so the idea here what you're describing here is kind of write these things that you almost do as a manager daily and have Claude essentially do them for you and then show you here's what I'm doing here's what I here's what there's to review.

太有意思了。所以某种意义上，作为一个管理者，你有一些每天都要做的事，而你这里说的是，你可以设好这些 prompt，让它们每天去盯一盯那些你本来要做的事——比如各个项目进展如何？什么落后了？我该去解哪个卡点？谁遇到困难了？怎么修一修、打磨一下、改进一下？所以你描述的这个想法，差不多就是把你作为管理者每天几乎都要做的那些事写下来，让 Claude 基本上替你去做，然后给你呈现「这是我正在做的、这是有待 review 的」。

[37:53] Fiona

And then it's it's even like then giving even more autonomy at some point of it. You know what like go for it. Like for example, if the verification is really good, go go [laughter] for it.

然后到了某个程度，它甚至会被赋予更多的自主权——你知道的，就像「放手去干吧」。比如说，如果验证环节真的做得很到位，那就放手去干吧[笑]。

[38:02] Lenny

see. So you give it like a little bit of freedom to do more of this. Yeah. That is so interesting. It reminds me speaking on this idea of go for it. I don't like I wasn't planning to talk about this, but I just watched Tyler Cowen had this awesome talk about just like what's happening. I don't know if you know Tyler Cowen is really smart dude economist has a podcast. And he just had like there's so much talk of the people that are doing best in this world, his term is initiative. They have initiative. Another term people use agency. Is that something just like you know people hear this a lot just like the people that seem to be doing best are taking the most initiative, getting the most proactive, have the most agency. Does that Does that kind of spark any thoughts to you just what people may need to I don't know think about or improve on?

明白。所以你给它一点点自由，让它多做一些这类事情。对，那真是太有意思了。说到「放手去干」这个念头，让我想起——我本来没打算聊这个，但我刚看了 Tyler Cowen 一场很棒的演讲，讲的就是当下正在发生什么。我不知道你认不认识 Tyler Cowen，一个特别聪明的经济学家，有个播客。他刚讲到——现在有特别多关于「谁在这个世界里做得最好」的讨论，他用的词是「主动性（initiative）」——他们有主动性。还有人用「能动性（agency）」这个词。这是不是那种大家常听到的说法：那些看起来做得最好的人，是最有主动性、最积极主动、最有能动性的人？这会不会让你冒出些想法，关于人们或许需要——我也说不好——去思考或者去提升的东西？

[38:47] Fiona

Actually that's agent it's that word agency. That's what we really hold important on the cloud code and code work team. But it's interesting I say along with high cuz it's like we really it's about like hey here's a problem and then it's really everybody on the team has ideas for how to address the problem. So it's really high agency and then we say with high agency is also high accountability. So it's all about like making sure folks have that freedom to cook. You know they and but then it's also like okay what's the accountability for it as well and that's where and again it goes back to like what's the hypothesis of what you're you know like trying to solve. So I think yeah the the balance like or you know almost like two sides of the same kind of agency and then accountability I think has served our team really well.

其实关键就是那个词——agency，主动权。这正是 Claude Code 和 Cowork 团队最看重的东西。有意思的是，我会把它跟「高」连在一起说，因为我们真正做的是：有一个问题摆在这儿，然后团队里每个人都有自己解决它的想法。所以是高 agency，而与高 agency 配套的，是高 accountability（高担责）。核心是确保大家有充分发挥的自由——他们尽管去折腾，但同时也要想清楚：我要为这件事负什么责？这又回到一开始的那个点：你试图解决的问题、你的假设到底是什么。所以我觉得这种平衡——或者说 agency 和 accountability 几乎就是同一枚硬币的两面——给我们团队带来了非常好的效果。

[39:29] Lenny

Such an important element. Have a agency. Okay cool. Everyone's off doing stuff but okay what have you actually [laughter] what have you busted up? What have you done? So kind of along those lines it feels like there's this vibe shift recently from token maxing just go crazy spend as much as possible just see what's possible to like wait what are we actually getting out of this? How much is it costing? What's the ROI? Interestingly Boris was actually like head of product inch productivity at meta that was like his job is measuring inch productivity and uh and then also just this like tweet of lines per code like code ship like there's this like interesting discussion of just how do you actually measure productivity increase and ROI of AI tools in spend. How do you like you know you guys have the infinite advantage of getting free free tokens working at Anthropic. With that in mind, what what have you learned about just how to measure, say, ROI of engineers in today's world?

这是一个特别重要的要素——拥有 agency。好，很酷，每个人都在埋头干活，但到底——[笑]你们到底搞出了什么名堂？真正做成了什么？顺着这个思路，我感觉最近有一种氛围的转变：从「token maxing」——疯狂烧、能花多少花多少、就想看看极限在哪——转向了「等等，我们到底从中得到了什么？花了多少钱？ROI 是多少？」有意思的是，Boris 之前在 Meta 就是负责工程生产力的产品负责人，他的工作就是衡量工程生产力。还有那个关于「每行代码」「上线代码量」的推文，引出了一个很有意思的讨论：到底怎么衡量 AI 工具投入带来的生产力提升和 ROI？你们在 Anthropic 工作有个无限的优势——免费用 token。在这个前提下，你对「在今天这个世界里，怎么衡量工程师的 ROI」有什么心得？

[40:27] Fiona

This end productivity is such a fascinating topic. Um yeah, cuz I remember, you know, like like even for us mentioned, like you know, we'll first start with like lines of code. And then that's throughput and then I remembered once then there was a debate of, well, lines of code, this engineer had this crazy lines of code, but they just took some library and then just was porting it. So, they checked it in and then I was like, well, maybe it's significant lines of code. And then it's, well, but what if we're, you know, updating our frameworks and now we're generating less code, but like the output's still the same. So, now I'm like, okay, maybe it's it's like time to land PR. Like but but it's very interesting of it's always been whichever metric, it's it's um like if if you're really focused on the out like my advice here is one is output like is the output really going towards the outcome? Cuz yeah, like the the the the token maxing, it's kind of like a it's almost like the lines of code that we used to have, but I'm really much more about a um what is it that we're trying to to do? Like all all of this, you know, there there was another saying I really like, don't forsake motion for progress. Um because if you're measuring like, you know, like tool user usage, then you're you're measuring the action, but is it really making whatever the end outcome of yours like important? Um and so I I really uh try to zoom out and focus on what is the problem we're trying to solve? What's a good way to measure that? And then that's what we we focus mostly on versus kind of like the the the productivity measurement. Um I would say though, like outside of metrics, especially if on teams as you're having more people adopt AI tooling, I would say definitely go um on a listening tour for for the for the leaders listening to a podcast, especially, you know, um I I love to focus on the senior engineers as well. Like hear from them on what's working, what's not, how can we actually make it better cuz they will also help you multiply and scale that out across a full engineering team. And sometimes there's those conversations where you might get sparked an idea that comes up and also really good shared learning versus um, you know, like metric dashboards. It's very interesting. I've learned some good lessons from metrics. I'm all about like it's really great when you have a a metric that you can actually hill climb on, but always keep in mind that is you know, my whole growth mindset of is it still serving you? Always keep in mind like is that metric really uh, still serving the outcome that you were aiming for. Um, like a fun example I have with this is in the early Facebook Marketplace days, we were kind of like launching by region and we really want to make sure we're building a delightful product before we expand. And I remember in the early days what one thing we would keep an eye on is kind of like number of sellers. And I remembered after launching our first region, I'm like how in this area the number of sellers is low, but actually people are like people are finding items that they're looking for which is what we're aiming for like helping people find items that that they need. And then I realized in that region it wasn't uh, large number of sellers, but there were power sellers. But our first gate before we expand would have just been like you know, factoring heavily number of sellers and I remember that quick conversation of hey, and this goes back to that whole people will use things in ways you may not expect and ship better rate learn. And so so then we updated the the metric to go oh, you know, like it's not uh, number of seller cuz it didn't factor in power sellers. And so that's the advice I have to like whatever metric whether for productivity or even for product, always keep an eye and make sure that you're not just having blinders on that's blindly following a metric that used to make sense cuz sometimes the landscape can change so fast. Uh, even the metrics themselves might need to be adjusted.

工程生产力真是个让人着迷的话题。我记得，就像你提到的，我们一开始也是从「代码行数」入手，也就是产出量。后来我记得有过一场争论：某个工程师代码量爆炸式地多，但其实他只是拿了某个库直接移植过来，然后提交了。我当时想，这也算是「可观的代码量」吗？接着又有人说，那如果我们升级框架、现在生成的代码更少了，但产出效果是一样的呢？于是我又想，好吧，那也许该用「PR 落地的时间」来衡量。但有意思的是，不管用哪个指标，关键始终是——如果你真正盯着产出看，我的建议第一条是：这个产出到底有没有真正导向你想要的结果（outcome）？因为 token maxing 这事儿，本质上跟我们以前的「代码行数」很像，但我更在意的是：我们到底想达成什么？还有一句我特别喜欢的话——别把「动作」当成「进展」（don't forsake motion for progress）。因为如果你衡量的是工具使用量，那你衡量的只是动作，可它真的推动了你最终想要的结果吗？所以我会努力往后退一步，聚焦在「我们要解决的问题是什么、用什么方式衡量它最合适」，然后把精力主要放在这上面，而不是单纯地搞生产力度量。不过我想说，抛开指标不谈，尤其当团队里越来越多人用上 AI 工具时，我特别建议——对于在听这期播客的管理者来说——一定要去做「倾听之旅」（listening tour）。我尤其喜欢去听资深工程师的声音，听他们讲什么有用、什么没用、我们怎么才能做得更好，因为他们还能帮你把这些经验在整个工程团队里放大、铺开。有时候在这些对话里，你会被激发出新点子，而且这种共同学习的收获，远比看指标仪表盘来得好。这事儿很有意思。我确实也从指标里学到过不少教训。我特别认同——当你有一个能真正去「爬坡优化」（hill climb）的指标时，那是很棒的；但永远记住，这就是我那套成长型思维：它还在为你服务吗？永远要想一想，这个指标是不是还真的在服务于你最初瞄准的那个结果。一个有意思的例子是在 Facebook Marketplace 早期，我们是按地区逐步上线的，特别想在扩张前先把产品打磨得让人愉悦。我记得早期我们紧盯的一个指标是「卖家数量」。第一个地区上线后，我发现：这个区域卖家数量很低，但实际上人们正在找到他们想要的东西——而这恰恰是我们的目标，帮人们找到他们需要的物品。后来我意识到，那个地区卖家数量不多，但有一批「超级卖家」（power sellers）。可我们扩张前的第一道关卡本来会很看重「卖家数量」。我记得当时有过一次很快的对话——这又回到那个道理：人们会以你意想不到的方式使用产品，所以要更快地上线、更快地学习。于是我们更新了指标，因为原来那个没把超级卖家算进去。所以我的建议是：不管是生产力指标还是产品指标，永远盯着点、别戴上眼罩盲目追随一个「曾经合理」的指标，因为有时局势变化太快，连指标本身都可能需要调整。

[44:01] Lenny

And this comes back to your uh, process that you shared of having Claude watch all the PRs shipping per engineer, let's say, and then not focusing on the metrics but focusing on that leading to a conversation about what impact this have, what was maybe some bugs that happened, and that being a really powerful way of understanding how what's going on with this engineer.

这又回到你之前分享的那套做法：让 Claude 盯着每个工程师上线的所有 PR，然后重点不是看那些指标，而是让它引出一场对话——这带来了什么影响、出过哪些 bug，而这本身就是一种非常有力的方式，去理解某位工程师身上到底发生了什么。

[44:23] Lenny

Awesome.

太棒了。

[44:25] Lenny

Let me come back to this just this question of speed and quality and just like impact. Uh is there anything else you've learned about just how to balance those things? Just like there's a crazy velocity of code that's being generated and just stay on top of quality and impact. Is there anything else there that might be helpful to other teams that are trying to wrangle all this all these PRs being shipped every day?

我再回到速度、质量和影响力这个问题上。关于怎么平衡这几件事，你还有别的心得吗？毕竟现在代码生成的速度快得离谱，同时还要把控好质量和影响力。对于那些正努力管理「每天大量 PR 上线」的团队来说，这里还有什么可能对他们有帮助的吗？

[44:47] Fiona

I would say, and this is what honestly we we were we want to keep doing more of and and being better at it, too. Like the proactive quality, so especially for quality, making sure that what are the experiences that are key and making sure you actually is you actually speak of metric. Those are really good things that you you make sure you can look kind of like see trends over time. Um and so like on the quality front, we found like um and this is like the more proactive we can be of like making sure we can get an earlier detection into uh quality. And and so like um that's been one thing that we've been paying a lot of attention to. Like so like you know I I I started this, "Hey, let's have a concept of what's bad versus what's sad." And bad is like a very bad irrecoverable error. And sad is something that's kind of like a pain point recoverable, but it's interesting when you stack up sads, it could, you know, generally go to bad. But even having a like starting with a high-level framework like that and because of not like I think sometimes with dashboards you can have you know, like uh time to load or all these other, but when you're dealing with a lot of different product surfaces, it's harder to go, "Wait, is that a good number or not a good number?" And so one thing that's helped us is versus just raw, you know, like performance or uh uh, you know, like reliability numbers, also having some framework of what we think is, you know, like a a bad experience and making sure we're focused on addressing those and then also keeping an eye on where we seeing in terms of the sad. That That's helped us a little bit.

我想说——老实讲这也是我们想继续多做、并且做得更好的方向——就是「主动式质量保障」（proactive quality）。尤其在质量上，要弄清楚哪些体验是关键的，并确保你能真正地——你刚才也提到指标——这些就是很好的东西，让你能看到一段时间内的趋势变化。在质量这一块，我们发现，越是能主动出击、越能更早地探测到质量问题就越好。这是我们投入了大量注意力的一件事。我当初提了个概念：「咱们区分一下什么叫 bad、什么叫 sad。」bad 是那种非常糟糕、不可恢复的错误；sad 是那种有点难受、但可恢复的痛点。但有意思的是，当 sad 一个个堆起来，整体上往往就会演变成 bad。哪怕只是有这么一个高层框架，也很有用——因为有时候用仪表盘，你会有「加载时间」之类一堆指标，但当你面对很多不同的产品界面时，就很难判断「等等，这个数字到底算好还是不好？」所以对我们有帮助的一点是：与其只看原始的性能、可靠性数字，不如再加上一套框架，去定义我们认为什么是「糟糕的体验」，确保我们聚焦于解决那些，同时也盯着 sad 的情况在往哪走。这对我们多少有些帮助。

[46:14] Lenny

I like the bad and sad. So, these are kind of like thresholds of this is bad. Okay, this is serious. And this is in terms of like performance or or or failures or what what what sort of things are you measuring here?

我喜欢这个 bad 和 sad 的说法。所以这有点像阈值：这是 bad，好，这是严重问题；这是——你们这里衡量的是性能、还是故障、还是什么样的东西？

[46:23] Fiona

Uh, so for example, like we we allow each team like speak of agency. So, knowing that bad is like a really bad irrecoverable error. We enable each team of further surface areas or it could be services that, you know, they lead. What What is like so for example, on CLI could be crash rates. Like a crash is pretty bad. You lost work. Um, and for example, a sad might be, "Hey, is it flickering?" Like it might be recoverable. But we have each team like and and that's why it's been interesting because before each because surface areas are different, like we would have all these dashboards of but it's it's harder to zoom out and go, "Okay, what's the overall theme of the experience?" So, to your point, we give high agency to each team what we think constitutes a bad and what's a sad and then what's the goal that um, each team wants to take.

比如说，回到 agency 这个话题——我们让每个团队自己来定。在「bad 是非常糟糕、不可恢复的错误」这个前提下，我们让每个团队针对他们负责的更细的界面或服务，自己去定义。举个例子，CLI 这边，bad 可能是崩溃率——崩溃是相当糟糕的，你的工作丢了。而 sad 可能是「嘿，界面在闪烁吗？」这种，也许是可恢复的。我们让每个团队自己定——这也是为什么很有意思，因为之前每个界面都不一样，我们会有一大堆仪表盘，但很难往后退一步去看「好，这个体验的整体主题到底是什么？」所以呼应你刚才的点，我们给每个团队很高的 agency，让他们自己界定什么算 bad、什么算 sad，以及每个团队想达成什么目标。

[47:06] Lenny

One of the like the main takeaway I'm hearing here is uh, one of the best tools for staying on top of quality is just uh, monitoring and tests versus spending more time reviewing, which makes sense because the speed is just impossible to stay on top of and it almost speaks to this idea of closing the loop for agents to be able to kind of figure things out themselves. They know what success looks like. Cool, we'll fix it ourselves. So, that's a really interesting takeaway is just invest more in the tests. Evals I imagine is part of this and then just like monitoring failures and speed and things like that.

我从这里听到的一个主要收获是：把控质量最好的工具之一，其实是监控和测试，而不是花更多时间去做代码评审——这很合理，因为速度快到根本盯不过来。它几乎呼应了「为 agent 闭环」这个理念——让它们能自己把事情搞定，它们知道成功长什么样，于是「好，我们自己来修」。所以这是一个非常有意思的收获：多在测试上投入。我想 eval 也是其中一部分，再加上监控故障、速度之类的东西。

[47:38] Fiona

That's right.

没错。

[47:39] Lenny

Something I think this is public. I I know that you guys have this dashboard that tracks just like F-words, like how often people are like

有件事我觉得是公开的——我知道你们有个仪表盘，专门追踪比如「脏话」，统计人们多频繁地——

[47:45]

[laughter]

[笑]

[47:46] Lenny

cuz they're so pissed and frustrated. There's like a funny term for it, I think. I forget what it's called.

因为他们气得不行、特别抓狂。我记得有个挺逗的名字，但我忘了叫什么了。

[47:50] Fiona

Yes. Actually, I remember yeah, that was last September cuz we were all we were all seeing some frustrations and uh, yeah, that was an engineer on the team of hey, we should maybe track swear words. I'm like, oh that's a great idea. I remember it. I had just, you know, joined and we were having that really fun conversation. Um yeah, so it's it's again like it it's very interesting to kind of like look at um and and that's why like Evals is hard too because it's going back to like that user experience and how we can make sure it's a delightful experience and less frustrating. But yeah, the the swear word dashboard is is a fun one. [laughter]

对，我记得，那是去年九月的事，因为当时大家都遇到了一些挫败感。是团队里一位工程师提的：「嘿，咱们也许该追踪一下脏话。」我当时想，哦，这主意太棒了。我记得很清楚，那会儿我刚加入，我们正聊得特别开心。所以这事儿真的很有意思，值得去看一看——这也是为什么 eval 很难，因为它又回到了用户体验，回到我们怎么确保这是一段愉悦、而不是令人沮丧的体验。不过那个脏话仪表盘确实是个挺逗的东西。[笑]

[48:22] Lenny

This episode is brought to you by Mercury.

本期节目由 Mercury 赞助。

[48:24] Lenny

Radically different banking loved by over 300,000 entrepreneurs and now with command. I've been a customer of Mercury's for over 6 years. I have never once thought about leaving. Mercury is basically what happens when banking is built by product people, not by bankers. [music] They make it so easy, dare I say fun, to send invoices, move money around, set up virtual cards for folks on my team. Does your bank have an API, a terminal native CLI, or an AI ready MCP server? I don't think so. And just recently they launched command, a conversational interface built directly into Mercury, which acts as your financial operator. I've been using command to transfer money around, to figure out what categories I've been spending the most money in, analyze my cash flows, and [music] just today I used it to find out how much I've made from a specific sponsor over the past year. I just asked, [music] "How much have I made from X over the past year?" 10 seconds later I have an answer.

一种截然不同的银行服务，深受超过 30 万创业者喜爱，现在还推出了 Command。我做 Mercury 的客户已经超过 6 年了，从来没有一刻想过要离开。Mercury 基本上就是「当银行由做产品的人、而不是由银行家来打造」会是什么样子。[音乐]他们让发票、转账、给团队成员设虚拟卡这些事变得超级简单，甚至我敢说——挺有意思的。你的银行有 API 吗？有原生终端 CLI 吗？有为 AI 准备好的 MCP server 吗？我看是没有。最近他们还推出了 Command，一个直接内置在 Mercury 里的对话式界面，扮演你的「财务操盘手」。我一直用 Command 来转账、搞清楚我哪些类目花钱最多、分析现金流，[音乐]就在今天，我还用它查了过去一年我从某个特定赞助商那里赚了多少钱。我只是问了句，[音乐]「过去一年我从 X 那里赚了多少？」10 秒后我就有了答案。

[49:20]

[music]

[音乐]

[49:20] Lenny

It is so freaking cool. Visit mercury.com to learn more and apply online in minutes. Mercury is a fintech company, not an FDIC insured bank. Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group and Column N A, members FDIC.

实在是太酷了。访问 mercury.com 了解更多，几分钟即可在线申请。Mercury 是一家金融科技公司，不是 FDIC 承保的银行。银行服务由 Choice Financial Group 和 Column N.A. 提供，二者均为 FDIC 成员。

[49:35] Lenny

Kind of going back to the way you operate and ways that you've figured out to work in this crazy new world that we're in. Um I've heard about a couple things that you've implemented that are pretty unique, I think, to uh how teams operate and I think is something that has worked really well for you. One is making every manager start as an IC and then just every manager has to continue being an IC part-time kind of this player coach approach. Talk about that, why that's so important in today's world.

回到你的工作方式，以及你在这个疯狂的新世界里摸索出来的做事方法。我听说你推行了几件挺独特的做法——我觉得在团队运作方式上相当少见，而且似乎对你们效果特别好。其中一件是：让每位管理者都从 IC（独立贡献者）做起，而且每位管理者都得持续兼着一部分 IC 的活儿，有点「球员兼教练」的路子。聊聊这个吧——为什么在今天这个世界里它这么重要？

[50:00] Fiona

Mhm, I love it. Um, it's funny when I first joined cuz I I and I have amazing recruiting partners and I I noticed we were you know this whole theme of um kind of growth mindset. It's just because the landscape is changing so fast. Like what worked well before like may not make sense and even what makes sense today may need to change tomorrow, right? Like that's what I have to keep reminding myself. So yeah, when I first joined recruiters like, "Okay, yeah, we have these um couple like manager postings." And I'm like, "You know, cuz actually how it came from like a listening tour I did with like all the all the um members on the team. Of and I heard a lot of these, "Hey, I really appreciate the agency, but how can I make sure prioritization?" And And so I kind of through that I I um I realized and then there was some really good feedback too of making sure that um it's not too many layers of reviews. Like there was good feedback. Some folks have might have drawn from like companies are like, "You know, and and then I'm like, "Hmm." When I actually think as a as a leader, if you actually start as IC first without a like worry of supporting people cuz that's a very heavy responsibility that, you know, I think like managers, but like that but before you have to take on that full responsibility, give yourself that maker time to actually type deep into the code and learn the code base and I I or or the product, like whatever it is. It doesn't have to like honestly the the PRs I do are like but it's more about for me it's important because it keeps me in the flow because we're making so many changes to co-work and code. So even me doing PRs it's less about what it is I'm fixing, it's more about me using the the product every day just to keep that touch cuz as amazing as metrics and everything are and I do look at those dashboards, if you as a leader if if you're not, you know, like living and breathing your your product every day you you sometimes kind of like lose touch of uh touch and feel of the product. But anyways, on the manager front, I think giving time for managers that join to be able to go deep into do that before supporting people. And then they actually like end up building really great rapport with the team. Like because if not, I I think sometimes as managers, you know, you might come and join a new team and you instantly think, "I have to manage. Let me dig into my manager toolbox and and do manager-y things." But if you actually give yourself time to not have to worry about that first and actually learn what it's like to be an engineer and teammate on the team. That also goes really far um to to building rapport. And and in and in terms of like using the product, I think that's that's it's it's interesting. Every team I've joined, one of the first actually across all the different products. It could be VR, it could be smart glasses, it was like Instagram. Usually when I first joined, one comment that comes back to me is, "Hey, you know what? I really love how you're actually using what we build. It's It's refreshing to see, you know, you giving user feedback." Like Like and and so I think as leaders too, it's also a way for us to experience that the work uh personally that the team does.

嗯，我太喜欢这个了。挺好玩的，我刚加入的时候——我有几位很棒的招聘伙伴——我注意到我们整个有一种「成长型思维」的基调，就是因为局势变化太快了。以前行之有效的东西，可能现在就不再合理了；甚至今天合理的，明天也可能需要改变，对吧？这是我得不断提醒自己的。所以我刚加入时，招聘的人说：「好，我们有几个管理岗在招。」而我——其实这源自我做的一次倾听之旅，跟团队里所有成员聊。我听到很多人说：「我很感激这份 agency，但我怎么确保优先级排得对？」通过这些，我意识到，而且也收到一些很好的反馈：要确保评审的层级别太多。有些人可能是从别的公司带来的经验。我当时想：「嗯。」当我真正以一个领导者的身份去想，如果你先从 IC 做起，先不用操心「带人」这份很重的责任——我觉得管理者要承担的责任很重——但在你扛起那份全部责任之前，先给自己一段「造物时间」（maker time），真正深入到代码里、摸熟代码库，或者产品，不管那是什么。说实话，我做的那些 PR 其实——更重要的是，它让我保持在「心流」里，因为我们对 Cowork 和 Code 改动太多了。所以哪怕只是我自己做 PR，重点也不在于我修了什么，而在于我每天都在用这个产品、保持那种触感。因为指标和一切都再好，我也确实会看那些仪表盘，但作为领导者，如果你不是每天都「活在」你的产品里、亲身感受它，有时就会和产品的手感脱节。不管怎样，在管理者这件事上，我觉得给新加入的管理者一段时间，让他们在带人之前先深入进去做这些，是值得的。而且他们最后还真的会和团队建立起非常好的默契。因为不然的话——我觉得有时候作为管理者，你加入一个新团队，会立刻想：「我得管理啊，让我翻出我的管理工具箱，做点管理者该做的事。」但如果你先给自己一段时间、不用急着操心那些，而是真正体会一下做这个团队的工程师、队友是什么感觉，那对建立默契也大有裨益。说到用产品，我觉得这也挺有意思。我加入过的每一个团队——其实横跨各种不同产品，可能是 VR、可能是智能眼镜、可能是 Instagram——通常我刚加入时，常有人对我说一句：「嘿，你知道吗？我真的特别喜欢你在亲自用我们做的东西，看到你给出用户反馈，让人觉得很新鲜。」所以我觉得作为领导者，这也是我们亲身体验团队所做工作的一种方式。

[52:50] Lenny

Something that people may not realize, uh you were overseeing a an org of like 500 people at Meta before you moved to Anthropic, right? And you moved to IC IC engineer basically at Anthropic from that.

有件事大家可能没意识到——你在转去 Anthropic 之前，在 Meta 是管着一个大约 500 人的组织的，对吧？然后你从那个位置，基本上是以一名 IC 工程师的身份加入了 Anthropic。

[53:03] Fiona

I started out like it was for a very short short amount of time. But but um actually this was my journey between Microsoft and Meta. So at Meta, I interviewed as a manager, but I think at least for the first quarter, I was also an IC um because I really wanted to learn what it's like to be a Meta engineer because before then I was at Microsoft kind of like cut my teeth on engineering at Microsoft. So I knew all the code bases, the tools, the languages. And uh yeah, but it was so valuable to have the the those first months like actually learn what it's like to ship uh as a Meta engineer. Plus it was also fun. Like I think sometimes we forget if we like And but that's by the way what I love about Claude code. Because um the last time I shipped production software at Metal is probably 2017. And every year I might start like I do a lot of dog fooding and a lot of, you know, like I I also use dog fooding to help me like that the quality of of product as well. Um, but it's been a very long time since I shipped production software. It's because part of it is I don't I don't want to screw something up. Like I'm always I'm always so scared of what if I do something and then I cause a bug and then I'm not verifying properly or am I wasting someone's time? Because, you know, like also the the the tool flows would change. But I remember that first week on on Claude, I'm like at first I almost again went did my usual, let me go meet all the engineers and treat them to coffee and then I'm like, oh wait, wait, wait, let me ask Claude. Claude was this really good onboarding buddy of mine cuz I was like curious about the code base, asking it questions and and then it also really, you know, helped me like, you know, do the automated test, but I also want to still do some manual testing. And I I asked Claude, hey, help me come up with like what's a way for me to manually test this to make sure I cover all the case. But all that then gives me confidence that okay, I can ship peers again. And then I got like kind of more comfortable with it again. And and so I've actually had a lot of friends reach out to me that have been managers for a while that's like, hey, I'm shipping code again thanks to Claude. And so but in in general it's it's yeah, like it's it's just important to me as leaders to make sure you're kind of like using the product that your team builds.

一开始确实是，不过那只是很短很短的一段时间。其实这事儿发生在我从微软到 Meta 的那段经历里。在 Meta，我是作为管理者去面试的，但至少头一个季度，我同时也兼着 IC，因为我真的很想搞明白做一名 Meta 工程师是什么样——在那之前我在微软，工程上的底子是在微软打下的，所以那边的代码库、工具、语言我都熟。而最初那几个月，真正去体会作为一名 Meta 工程师怎么上线代码，太有价值了。而且也挺好玩的。我觉得有时候我们会忘了——顺便说一句，这正是我爱 Claude Code 的地方。因为我上一次在 Meta 上线生产软件，大概是 2017 年了。每年我都会做大量的「吃自家狗粮」（dog fooding）——我也用 dog fooding 来帮自己把控产品质量。但我已经很久很久没有上线过生产软件了。部分原因是我不想搞砸什么。我总是特别怕：万一我做了点什么、引入了 bug，结果我又没好好验证，岂不是在浪费别人的时间？因为工具流程也会变。但我记得在 Claude 上的第一周，一开始我差点又走了我的老路——去约所有工程师喝咖啡，然后我突然想：哦等等等等，我先问问 Claude。Claude 简直是我超棒的「入职搭子」，因为我对代码库很好奇，就问它问题；它还真帮我做了自动化测试，但我还是想自己做点手动测试。我就问 Claude：「嘿，帮我想想，我怎么手动测一下这个，确保把所有情况都覆盖到？」所有这些加起来，让我有底气：好，我又能上线 PR 了。然后我就慢慢又找回了那种自在感。所以其实有不少做了很久管理者的朋友找我说：「嘿，多亏了 Claude，我又开始写代码上线了。」总的来说——作为领导者，确保你在用团队所打造的产品，对我来说真的很重要。

[55:09] Lenny

It's so interesting that you are overseeing the team as an angel leader that is most changing the role of an engineer. It's such a meta role. Like the work of an engineer is transforming because of the software that you're building. One question along these lines is just do you worry about engineers skills to code atrophying from not actually writing code anymore? And does it even matter? Is this like something you think about? Is it a big deal?

特别有意思的是，你作为团队领导，所带的恰恰是当下最在改变「工程师」这个角色的团队。这角色太「元」（meta）了——工程师的工作正因为你们正在打造的软件而被重塑。顺着这条线问一个问题：你会担心工程师的编码能力，因为不再亲手写代码而退化吗？而且这真的重要吗？这是你会去想的事吗？是个大问题吗？

[55:38] Fiona

It's It's interesting cuz we actually have this uh discussion on the team a bit. Like there Like are there things that we miss? Or like actually to your point, I'm always like thinking about like when someone's onboarding and ramping. Like you have Boris who hand wrote the code in the early days and of course not does anymore, but he gained that knowledge from before cuz he was in the code base. So for especially all the engineers that join, I'm also like make sure you're like taking the time to to all the work that you do still get the understanding of the architecture or the change because it goes back to that trust but verify. Maybe one day it won't matter anymore, but at the at the pace that we're going, I actually still think understand like it's always double clicking on that layer that you depend on. Like may maybe that to me is a metal like cuz um it's always take that time to learn about your dependencies cuz this way when your dependencies change, like you're kind of like more aware or you might not be taking advantage of changes to you know, dependencies. So I think it's always about kind of like uh doing that double click. But the other thing that we found interesting on the Cloud Code team is after a while we felt uh it could start being a lonely experience cuz we all started just working with our agent so much. So recently we started a maybe a like a pairwise programming lunch. And cuz what we also learned was on Cloud Code, everybody uses a Cloud Code co-work. Everybody uses a flow so differently. And so we found that wow, when we do pairwise programming, we actually learn so much from each other. Um and but and then the other thing too is we we make sure that like we also uh have them make your time together too. So like for example, hackathons is is another thing we really like to do just to make sure we're kind of like interacting together as a team.

挺有意思，因为我们团队里其实就这事讨论过一些。比如，有没有什么是我们会怀念的？或者，正如你说的，我总在想——当有人入职、上手爬坡时——你看 Boris，早期那些代码是他亲手写的，现在当然不写了，但他从过去积累了那份认知，因为他当年就在代码库里。所以对所有加入的工程师，我也会说：你做的每一项工作，都要花点时间去真正理解它的架构、理解那次改动，因为这回到「信任但要验证」（trust but verify）。也许有一天这就不重要了，但以我们现在这个速度，我还是觉得理解很重要——就是要始终对你所依赖的那一层「双击下钻」（double click）。也许对我来说，这本身就是一种「元」的能力——永远花点时间去了解你的依赖，因为这样当你的依赖变化时，你会更敏锐，也不至于错过依赖带来的新好处而没去利用。所以我觉得始终要做那个「下钻」的动作。不过 Claude Code 团队还发现另一件有意思的事：过了一阵子，我们觉得这可能会变成一种孤独的体验，因为我们都开始大量地只和自己的 agent 打交道。所以最近我们搞了个「结对编程午餐」（pairwise programming lunch）。因为我们还发现，在 Claude Code、Cowork 上，每个人用「flow」的方式都太不一样了。于是我们发现——哇，当我们结对编程时，竟然能从彼此身上学到这么多。另外一件事是，我们也确保大家有「在一起」的时间，比如黑客松（hackathon）也是我们很喜欢做的，就是为了确保我们作为一个团队彼此互动。

[57:15] Lenny

That is such a good point. Just like the loneliness that emerges because used to be inch teams building code together. Someone's doing back end, someone's doing front end, someone's doing iOS app. Probably a bunch of people, you know, on the back end. And I was like, you know, well if 10 clouds running in parallel doing all these things. That is such a good idea of just like finding ways to connect engineers. So, the idea here is like almost pair programming, but not. It's like parallel It's like parallel play when kids are growing up. Like, you're kind of working next to each other, but building your own things. But, even just watching how other people build is your finding is really valuable.

这点说得太好了。就是那种悄然浮现的孤独感——以前是工程团队一起搭代码：有人做后端、有人做前端、有人做 iOS 应用，后端可能还一堆人。而我在想，如果是 10 个 Claude 并行跑、把这些活儿全干了……所以「想办法把工程师连接起来」是个特别好的主意。这里的思路有点像结对编程，但又不是。它更像孩子成长时的「平行游戏」（parallel play）——你们彼此挨着工作，但各自搭各自的东西。可哪怕只是看别人怎么搭，你也发现特别有价值。

[57:51] Fiona

Yeah, and it's because our our own tool chain is changing so fast as well. But, yeah, it's very interesting to me that like everybody on on our team just uses Claude code and and code work in different ways. And so, time I watch someone work, then I I learn something myself as well.

对，因为我们自己的工具链也变得太快了。但确实让我觉得很有意思的是，团队里每个人用 Claude Code 和 Cowork 的方式都不一样。所以每次我看别人干活，我自己也能学到点东西。

[58:05] Lenny

How do you manage people getting over like obsessed with the optimizing their workflows? Is there anything you just say, "Okay, it's fine. Just Just keep [laughter] going."

你怎么管那些过度沉迷于优化自己工作流的人？有没有什么时候你会直接说：「行了，没事，就这么[笑]接着干吧。」

[58:14] Fiona

You know, I I haven't seen too many folks on our team like it's I think it's everybody is just really excited about, you know, either a like an architecture update that we think will be higher reliability or some product experience. So, most folks like that's what we we talked about a lot. Like, yeah, we we um we don't over It's fun lunchtime conversations, but I don't think we over optimize because there's no cuz there's no perfect answer actually.

你知道吗，我们团队里这种人我倒没见到太多。我觉得大家其实都是真的很兴奋——要么是兴奋于某个我们认为能带来更高可靠性的架构更新，要么是某个产品体验。所以大多数人，那才是我们常聊的。是的，我们不会过度——这些都是有意思的午餐闲聊，但我不觉得我们会过度优化，因为其实根本就没有完美答案。

[58:39] Lenny

much to do.

要做的事太多了。

[58:40]

[laughter]

[笑]

[58:41] Lenny

Is there anything These are really interesting insights. Just like as the role transformed, things come, things go. So, I'm curious what else is kind of lost in this new world of software engineering. I used to be an engineer. I don't know if you know this. I was an engineer for 10 years. Uh and it was like so fun just to sit there in flow coding. You know this feeling. Just like, "Oh, wow, it's working. Look at it compile. It's amazing. I'm making progress." And now it's like you don't do that anymore. You just sit there and kind of wait for agents to build the thing. What else What else is kind of lost in this new world for engineers?

还有别的吗——这些洞见都特别有意思。随着这个角色被重塑，有些东西来了，有些东西走了。所以我很好奇，在软件工程这个新世界里，还有什么是丢失掉的？我以前也是工程师，不知道你知不知道——我当了 10 年工程师。坐在那儿、沉浸在写代码的心流里，那感觉太爽了。你懂那种感觉——「哦，哇，它跑通了！看它编译！太神奇了！我在往前推进！」可现在你不再那样了，你就坐在那儿、等着 agent 把东西搭出来。对工程师来说，在这个新世界里还有什么是丢掉的？

[59:12] Fiona

Yeah, it's so funny. I just had that conversation with the engineer on the team of talk about flow. Like, remember the old days you have this really gnarly problem and you pop that music soundtrack in and then you're just in the in the zone. Um Uh so, yeah, there is a little and then there was always that big aha moment at the end. I would remember. Like is it Yeah, you remember you're like you finally cracked it. You know that yay. So we we do but it's like I think now we get a lot of joy from like the product but I do think there is cuz I hear from other engineers as well of it Well, I some of the hardest parts is what I used to enjoy. Like yeah, I heard that from another engineer as well. And so I think we're all just kind of like shifting um Uh, but I I I do see like the the thing most and that's why I was I I was talking about like the pair wise programming in the hackathon. That did recently come up more of folks were starting to feel like it's starting to be a lonely experience.

是啊，太好笑了，我刚跟团队一位工程师聊起「心流」这事。就是，还记得过去那些日子吗——你碰上一个特别棘手的难题，戴上耳机放上音乐，然后整个人就进入那个状态。所以确实有一点点失落，而且过去总有那个结尾处的「巨大顿悟时刻」。我记得，对吧——你终于把它攻克了的那一刻，那种「耶！」的感觉。所以我们——但现在我觉得我们的很多乐趣是来自产品本身。不过我确实觉得有失落，因为我也从其他工程师那儿听到：「呃，有些最难的部分，恰恰是我以前最享受的。」对，我从另一位工程师那儿也听到过同样的话。所以我觉得我们都在某种程度上转变、适应。但我看到最明显的——这也是为什么我前面会聊结对编程和黑客松——最近确实更多地出现了，大家开始感觉这正变成一种孤独的体验。

[1:00:07] Lenny

So interesting. Within Anthropic I'm curious so engineering like the most transformed I think of any role right now. What other What's like the second most transformed role so far would you say within Anthropic that's most different from how it was like a couple years ago let's say?

太有意思了。在 Anthropic 内部，我很好奇——工程大概是当下被重塑得最厉害的一个角色了。那你会说，到目前为止，Anthropic 内部「第二被重塑得最厉害」的角色是什么？跟比方说几年前相比，差别最大的是哪个？

[1:00:23] Fiona

It's it's all the coding adjacent roles are shifting. Like PM is I know like you you were chatting with Kai. I think PM is also transformed quite a bit because PM bar no longer bottlenecked if if they have an idea waiting on engineering bandwidth. Um so that's kind of like the the next role I've seen shift. Like actually our PMs have also helped us roll up sleeves and help shift you know like some features when we when we were um you know like when when there wasn't uh when there was a you know something we wanted to do and an engineer wasn't able to. So I think um it's all the coding adjacent roles are starting to shift. Um but I think that's where again the verification is important cuz when you have more different disciplines checking in how do we make sure everybody has high confidence. I also think we need to do more to keep automating these other portions of the workflows. Like for sure we focus a lot on coding but next when you think about like design or data science like those are starting to be the next areas I think are good opportunities for us to see how we can yeah like um uh start and improving kind of like experiences there as well.

是所有「与编码相邻」的角色都在变。比如 PM——我知道你跟 Kai 聊过——我觉得 PM 也变了挺多，因为如果 PM 有了一个想法，不再被卡在等工程资源上了。所以那算是我看到的下一个在变的角色。其实我们的 PM 们也帮我们撸起袖子上手，去推进一些功能——当我们想做某件事、而工程师暂时腾不出手时。所以我觉得，所有与编码相邻的角色都开始在变。但我觉得，这里「验证」就又重要起来了，因为当有更多不同职能的人在提交、参与时，我们怎么确保每个人都有高度的信心？我还觉得我们需要做更多，去把工作流里的其他环节也自动化。我们当然在编码上投入了很多，但接下来，当你想到设计、或者数据科学，这些就开始成为下一批我对我们很有机会去改善那里体验的领域了。

[1:01:26] Lenny

Yeah, I have a speaking of data science, I have a data science friend and he was just saying how data science is so different now where now most of their job is people doing their own like not amazing data science work using AI and it and then just like showing it to the data scientist, "Here, here's the analysis I did. Can you just make sure it's right?" And half the time it's not right. And so the job is just like a whole different job now instead of doing the work that they thought they wanted to do and that's like, "All right, I'm just reviewing all this AI data science all the time. What the hell?"

对，说到数据科学，我有个做数据科学的朋友，他就说现在数据科学太不一样了——现在他们大部分工作，是别人自己用 AI 做了点其实算不上出色的数据科学活儿，然后拿来给数据科学家看：「喏，这是我做的分析，你能不能帮我确认一下对不对？」而有一半时间它都是错的。所以这份工作现在完全变成另一回事了，不再是做他们以为自己想做的那种工作，而变成「行吧，我整天都在审查这些 AI 做的数据科学。搞什么呀？」

[1:01:57]

[laughter]

[笑]

[1:01:58] Lenny

Kind of along the lines, coming back to just how your team operates and how things are changing, let me see if something comes with this question. What should an engineering manager expect from their team now versus like a couple years ago? What's like a normal, I don't know, baseline expectation of how things should work? Is it other than just, you know, we're shipping faster? Is there anything else?

顺着这条线，再回到你们团队怎么运作、以及一切正在如何变化——我来看看这个问题能带出点什么。现在一位工程经理对自己的团队应该有什么样的期待，跟比方说几年前相比有什么不同？什么算是一个正常的、我也说不好——基线期待，事情该怎么运转？除了「我们上线更快了」之外，还有别的吗？

[1:02:20] Fiona

Oh, interesting. Well, definitely I think most commits are cloud assisted and so that was a shift. Um I think you know, I kind of like mentioned we have like Slack channels with all the feedback and also our dashboards that we have get to cloud. I think having engineers building like keep building that stronger product sense muscle is I I think also like another and I think that in general helps kind of build these really strong minded product engineers. I would say more of these roles that were traditionally non-engineering, you do now see engineers being like and sometimes you're just blocked by, you know, waiting for you know, a cross-functional partner. I think there's there's less of those blocks now just because the models are able to augment additional capabilities that you may not have as an from as an engineer.

哦，挺有意思。嗯，我觉得现在绝大多数提交都是借助 cloud 完成的，这本身就是一个转变。嗯，我前面也提到，我们有专门的 Slack 频道收集所有反馈，还有接入 cloud 的各种 dashboard。我觉得让工程师在这个过程中不断锻炼更强的产品直觉，这本身也是另一层意义，它整体上有助于培养出这种产品思维特别强的工程师。我会说，很多过去传统上不属于工程范畴的角色，现在你确实看到工程师也能干了。而且有时候你以前会被卡住，比如得等某个跨职能的搭档配合。现在这种卡点少了很多，因为模型能补足你作为一个工程师本身可能并不具备的额外能力。

[1:03:12] Lenny

So it's kind of interesting that it's both directions. Engineers becoming more product minded and responsible for the quality and success of a product and then everybody becoming an engineer more and more.

所以挺有意思的是，这是双向同时发生的。工程师变得更有产品思维，也开始对产品的质量和成败负责；与此同时，每个人都越来越像工程师。

[1:03:23] Fiona

Yeah, that's right. It's all blurring.

对，没错。边界全在模糊化。

[1:03:25] Lenny

Yeah. I forget who said this, but there's this like like what is a role anymore in this this guy said that it's like what's the average of what you do? What's like the highest percentage of what you and that's kind of your role now, whatever it is going to be. [laughter]

对。我忘了这话是谁说的了，大概意思是：在如今这个时代，所谓的「角色」到底还算什么？这个人说，角色就是你日常工作的一个平均值——你花时间占比最高的那件事是什么，那基本就是你现在的角色，不管它将来会变成什么。（笑）

[1:03:40] Fiona

Yeah.

对。

[1:03:40] Lenny

Oh man, I want to come back to your point about obsession with the the product living breathing the product dog fooding. I talked to a bunch of people that work with you about you and that's the thing that came up most just like your obsession with living and breathing the product using the product constantly, whatever it is you're building uh this idea of dog fooding. Talk about just like why that is so important, why that's something you instill within your teams and and and reports.

哦对了，我想回到你刚才那个点——对产品的痴迷、活在产品里、天天用自家产品、所谓 dogfooding。我跟好几个和你共事过的人聊过你，大家提得最多的就是这一点：你对产品近乎痴迷地沉浸其中、不停地用，不管你当时在做的是什么。聊聊为什么这件事这么重要、为什么你要把它灌输给你的团队和下属吧。

[1:04:06] Fiona

Oh, I love it. Um yeah, I think it's it's really and and this has worked for me um it's just been a really good way for me to keep a pulse on you know, anytime you build product there's there's a dream. Like you're really hoping to enable an experience or make an experience better. So I think um being able like like that helps me keep really close to the pulse. I also think uh maybe and maybe something like for sure on Visual Studio that was like, you know, where I where I got this love of it um but it's interesting cuz even Marketplace, I remembered every time once in a while I'll do like even after I left the team actually. Um one time I had like a MacBook Air and I wanted to sell my old and you know, I haven't sold anything on Marketplace let let me and I could not believe it the minute I I put it up for sale a seller or buyer tried to scam me and it was an interesting like new scam vector I didn't detect and so but that goes to again like people will use uh your products in ways that that you may not expect and so especially as leaders or even like anyone on the team, we all have different like life like actually it's it's funny when it when I was a you know, supporting the VR and AR teams, somehow how I used VR, the setup, I would always be able to find these really weird floor height issues. So, that ended up being a I took a you know, like I'm going to help us you know, like cuz somehow I got a good repro environment. Um And so, I think it's number one like making that's how you keep your pulse on the product that you're building and don't get too lost in metrics and dashboards only or presentations.

哦，我太爱这个话题了。嗯，对，我觉得这真的很……而且这套方法对我特别管用，它一直是我用来时刻把住产品脉搏的好办法。你想啊，任何时候你做产品，背后都有一个梦想——你真心希望让某种体验成为可能，或者把某种体验做得更好。所以我觉得，能够亲身去用，能帮我贴得离这个脉搏特别近。我也觉得，这份热爱大概最早是在 Visual Studio 那段经历里养成的。但有意思的是，连 Marketplace 我也记得每隔一阵就会去用——其实哪怕我离开那个团队之后也是。有一次我有台 MacBook Air，想把旧机器卖掉，而我从没在 Marketplace 上卖过东西，我就想试试看。结果我简直不敢相信，刚一挂出去卖，就有个买家想骗我，而且那是一种我以前没识别过的、挺新的诈骗套路。但这恰恰说明，人们会以你完全意想不到的方式来用你的产品。所以尤其作为领导者，甚至团队里任何人——我们每个人的生活经历都不一样。其实挺逗的，我当年支持 VR 和 AR 团队的时候，不知怎么的，就因为我用 VR、摆设备的方式，我总能发现那些特别诡异的地面高度问题。结果那反倒成了……我就说「我来帮大家排查」，因为我那台机器不知怎么就成了个很好的复现环境。所以我觉得，第一，这就是你把住自己在做产品脉搏的方式，别让自己只迷失在指标、dashboard 或者 PPT 里。

[1:05:40] Lenny

I think that's such an important point you're saying there that I just want to make sure people hear is just like like there's always this idea of anecdotal evidence and just like examples versus the data. And what you're saying here is as a product leader as an engine leader, there you found a lot of success in like the anecdotes, the specific uh little one-offs that you experience as a as a as a user versus like obsessing with the data only.

我觉得你刚说的这点特别重要，我想确保大家都听清楚：人们总爱争论「个案佐证」和「数据」哪个更可信——就是零散的具体例子对上整体数据。而你这里想说的是，作为产品负责人、作为工程负责人，你恰恰从那些个案里、从你作为一个用户亲身碰到的那些具体的小特例里，收获了大量成功，而不是一味地只盯着数据。

[1:06:02] Fiona

Yeah. And and actually, sometimes it's also how I've been able to most effectively help the team. So, for example, the last team I was on I I was a you know, leading a VR team and you know, because like back then the like I I it it would have been I would I I was not I have not checked in any code into that code base just cuz I was really worried about like messing up the operating system. But what was a gap? We were doing a lot of polish fixes and I was I wanted to I'm like, "Hey, you know what? I'll use my dogfooding time to actually vet how the experience looks." And and so, that was also probably a way that I felt I could still meaningfully contribute to help hold the quality bar for the team. And and then like I say, like every team member usually always really appreciates cuz I I think um as a lead like you know, leader you're supporting folks on team that outside of metrics and everything, everybody really wants to make sure their work matters and yeah, just making sure that you know, leaders use your product. I think folks feel the the leaders um remain like really engaged and not too I'm

对。而且其实，有时候这也是我能最有效帮到团队的方式。举个例子，我上一个带的团队是 VR 团队。当时呢，我是没有往那个代码库里提交过任何代码的，纯粹是因为我太怕把操作系统搞坏了。但当时有个缺口：我们在做大量的打磨修复，我就想——「这样吧，我用我的 dogfooding 时间，亲自去把关一下体验到底什么样。」所以那大概也是一种方式，让我觉得自己仍然能实打实地出一份力，帮团队守住质量这条线。而且像我说的，团队里每个成员通常都特别领情，因为我觉得作为一个 lead、一个领导者，你在支持团队里的人，除了指标这些之外，每个人其实都特别希望确认自己的工作是有意义的。所以光是让大家看到领导也在用你们的产品，团队成员就会觉得领导依然是真正投入的、没有太脱离一线。

[1:07:05] Lenny

And this connects a lot with your point that engineers need to become more product minded. That engineers need to become more PM-y, PMs need to become more But this is like as an engineer, this is one way to do it. Use the product constantly. And that'll help you understand what is missing in the product as a user cuz you're just using it.

这跟你刚才那个观点很呼应——工程师得变得更有产品思维、得变得更像 PM，PM 也得变得更像工程师。而作为工程师，这就是一个具体做法：不停地用产品。这能帮你以一个用户的视角发现产品里缺了什么，因为你就是在天天用它。

[1:07:21] Fiona

That's right. And And I would say if you're leading a team where it's really hard for you to use the product, then meet with customers. Like whatever the other avenue is that kind of um like I think that's also been really important to you. Every time I've done customer visits, I always learn something new. Like actually I remember that was uh Facebook Marketplace we're trying to launch to uh Latin America. And so we had you know, we were testing in Chile. And I remember that it it just wasn't doing as well as the other regions we'd done. And everything else we've we've tried. And then I remember I'm like we And we had a really small research trip where I went to Chile. I remember getting a whole bunch of Android phones for us. It was very small crew, like just three of us. And upon landing and upon me opening up these Android phones and I'm like, ah you know, the LTE connection was real was much slower than what we were used to in the US. And so I'm like, oh, the Marketplace feed didn't even load very well on these little LTE situations. What a What a growth blocker you know, you can't even load. But again, that's why it's so important to always uh you know, like um listen to customer feedback and and get that fast feedback loop.

没错。而且我想说，如果你带的团队做的产品你很难亲身去用，那就去跟客户见面。反正就是找那条替代的路子。我觉得这点对你也一直很重要。每次我去做客户拜访，总能学到新东西。其实我记得有一次，是 Facebook Marketplace 准备往拉美上线，我们当时在智利做测试。我记得它的表现就是不如我们做过的其他地区，我们试过的别的招也都不管用。然后我记得我就想，干脆我们去一趟。我们做了一次规模很小的调研出差，我亲自去了智利。我记得给我们买了一大堆安卓手机，团队特别小，就我们仨。一落地、我一打开这些安卓手机，我就想——啊，这里的 LTE 网速比我们在美国习惯的要慢太多了。然后我就发现，哦，Marketplace 的信息流在这种弱 LTE 环境下根本加载不出来。这是个多大的增长拦路虎啊——你连内容都加载不出来。但这又一次说明，为什么始终去倾听客户反馈、建立这种快速反馈闭环，这么重要。

[1:08:24] Lenny

I think it was Jeff Bezos that said if you have the data and you have an anecdote, trust the anecdote over the data. Surprisingly. And that's a great example. Okay. Uh just a couple more questions. One is in your talk, you had this really interesting slide at the end of what questions you're kind of rethinking about right now that you haven't figured out how to solve with how much is changing. Uh I'm going to read the three. I'm curious just like if it's still these three, if there's anything else like current problems we need to figure out that we haven't solved in how we operate. What you shared in your talk was, do we still need separate iOS and Android orgs? How far do you push fully auto- automated reviews? And which role with role blurring, how do you ensure everyone's equally productive? Still problems? Is there anything else that you're thinking about like, okay, we need to crack this. We haven't figured this out.

我记得是 Jeff Bezos 说过：如果你手里既有数据又有一个个案，那就信个案别信数据。挺反直觉的。而你这就是个绝佳的例子。好，再问几个问题。第一个：你在演讲里，结尾有一页特别有意思的幻灯片，列了你现在正在重新思考、但还没想明白怎么解的几个问题——因为变化太大了。我把那三个念一下，我很好奇是不是还是这三个，或者有没有别的——就是我们在运作方式上当下还没解决、需要攻克的问题。你在演讲里分享的是：我们还需要把 iOS 和 Android 拆成两个独立组织吗？完全自动化的代码审查要推到多远？以及在角色边界都在模糊的情况下，怎么确保每个人的产出都同样高？这些还是问题吗？还有别的你在想的、觉得「这个我们必须攻克、还没搞定」的事吗？

[1:09:15] Fiona

You know, the iOS Android one, like I think we're still actually it's funny cuz I speak of like the deep expertise. We definitely feel that it's really important like it's really important to still bring on folks with those expertise, but we probably don't need like as large because people are flexing. So it's again making sure we have you know, like the Android and iOS experts, but then less of a the larger kind of like a mobile org one per. And so but again, that's still a balance that we're trying to figure out of do we have the right and enough expertise? Um The the second one was Sorry, what was the second [laughter] one?

iOS 和 Android 那个问题嘛，我觉得我们其实……说来好笑，正因为我刚讲到深度专业能力，我们绝对觉得它非常重要——把那些有专长的人招进来仍然很关键，但我们大概不再需要那么大的规模了，因为大家都在灵活切换。所以这又回到：要确保我们有 Android 和 iOS 的专家，但不再需要那种一个大平台一个大平台、人头很多的 mobile 组织。不过话说回来，这仍然是我们在摸索的一种平衡——我们的专业能力是不是配置对了、够不够。嗯，第二个是……不好意思，第二个问题是什么来着？（笑）

[1:09:52] Lenny

Oh, yeah. It is how far do you push fully automated reviews?

哦对，是「完全自动化的代码审查要推到多远」。

[1:09:56] Fiona

Ah. Yes. Actually, well, this is a a fun one like, you know, with the content design check. I think we're we're looking for across all of it like how do you actually get what good looks like? Um and so I have a like actually the verification is still one that we I think that's kind of like the second and the third that I think we there's more a lot more opportunities there for us. Um but the how far to push, I think looking at where we think that experts still matters and then also again have to keep asking ourselves, okay, is there a way to leverage our expertise to also automate? Like I think um like looking across the whole end-to-end experience, like making sure we're not missing in like I think we we come at it from like an engineering standpoint, but making sure um experiences how we think about those other areas. Um I I think there's definitely still more that we can do there.

啊，对。其实这个挺好玩的，比如就拿内容设计的检查来说。我觉得我们在所有这些环节里都在找一件事：怎么真正定义「好」长什么样。所以我有个……其实「验证（verification）」这件事仍然是我们的一道坎，我觉得它大概对应第二个和第三个问题，那里我们还有特别多可以做的空间。但说到「要推到多远」，我觉得就是去看我们认为哪些地方专家依然重要，然后还得不断反问自己：好，有没有办法把我们的专业能力也利用起来去做自动化？比如纵观整条端到端的体验，确保我们没漏掉什么——我觉得我们是从工程的视角切进去的，但要确保把体验、把我们怎么看待那些别的领域也都考虑进来。我觉得这块我们肯定还有更多能做的。

[1:10:43] Lenny

Basically, how do you solve how do you set up a verification that the experience is what you want it to be?

说白了就是：你怎么去解决、怎么去搭一套验证机制，确认体验确实就是你想要的那个样子？

[1:10:49] Fiona

Exactly. That and I think that one is still a hard one to crack cuz you kind of like mentioned the eval cases. It's Some of it for sure is accuracy, but it's also the experience. Um so that's something that's uh yeah, we're we're still kind of thinking through.

正是。而且我觉得这个仍然是块难啃的硬骨头，因为就像你提到的那些 eval 用例——其中一部分当然是准确度，但另一部分是体验。嗯，所以这是我们目前还在琢磨的事。

[1:11:03] Lenny

Awesome. Is there anything else that's like uh this has changed recently we got to figure out how to rethink the way we operate or is this kind of the the big ones?

太棒了。还有别的吗——比如「这块最近变了，我们得想想怎么重新设计运作方式」之类的，还是说这几个就是大头了？

[1:11:10] Fiona

You know, I think because with routines and everything being more async, I I I think there is starting to be a high load on our context switching. Cuz I even remember I myself was like, oh I I kicked like I kicked off like and and so I think that's probably another thing we have to think about of how do we uh you know, whether for our team members or our users like how can we actually make the experience better to reduce that load cuz I I do see the context switching load increasing.

嗯，我觉得因为有了 routines 这些东西、一切都变得更异步了，我们在「上下文切换」上开始承受很高的负荷。因为我自己都记得，我会想——哦我刚启动了一个……所以我觉得这大概是另一件我们得想清楚的事：不管是对我们团队成员还是对我们的用户，我们到底怎么把体验做得更好，去降低这个负荷。因为我确实看到上下文切换的负荷在变大。

[1:11:38] Lenny

I can like if you have 20 agents running there's just endless checking in and reviewing and you have to remember what you're doing there. It's like such an interesting world where like the idea flow we talked about before like engineers and most people like there's less of the just hours of flow, but now the agents can kind of just remind you. Here's where you're at like the reset to switch almost is easier cuz you don't have to like relearn everything. You don't have to like re-understand the code base and the the architecture. You can kind of just like, okay, but here's what we're trying to do. It's kind of like both got better, got worse.

我能想象——如果你同时跑着 20 个 agent，那就有没完没了的查看和审阅，你还得记住自己在每一处都在干什么。这个世界真的特别有意思：我们之前聊到的那种「心流」，对工程师、对大多数人来说，那种连续好几个小时的心流变少了；但现在 agent 反过来能提醒你——你进行到哪儿了。所以重新切回去几乎反而更容易了，因为你不用把所有东西重新学一遍，不用重新去理解代码库和架构，你大概只要看一眼「好，这就是我们想做的事」就行。可以说是两头都变了——既变好了，也变差了。

[1:12:12] Fiona

Well, it's interesting cuz I used to do book out like focus time for like you know, the focus time for coding cuz you want that dedicated and then the whole context switching and then it's interesting now that because I can context switch more with more async agents, I'm noticing I do actually have to go back and block like a focus time for me to catch up on all the you know, different async work that I've kicked off.

对，挺有意思的，因为我以前会专门空出整块的专注时间，比如留出一段专门写代码的时间，因为你需要那种不被打扰的整段时间，然后才是上下文切换那一套。可现在有意思的是，正因为我能借助更多异步的 agent 更频繁地切换上下文，我反而发现我得回头给自己空出一块专注时间，专门去消化我之前启动的那一堆各种异步任务。

[1:12:32] Lenny

Yeah, do you have any thoughts on a solution there cuz that's hard. Just like there's like people just want to do more and more and just how do you do that without constantly context switching? It's really hard and annoying.

对，关于这个的解法你有什么想法吗？因为这真的挺难的。就是说，大家总想做越来越多的事，那怎么才能做到这点又不用一直切换上下文？这真的又难又烦。

[1:12:43] Fiona

Yes. I agree. Like definitely I haven't cracked it yet.

是的，我同意。我这块确实还没搞定。

[1:12:46]

[laughter]

（笑）

[1:12:48] Lenny

So interesting. Okay, there's a question I I of as we were talking that I I'm like so excited to hear your answer on that. I wasn't even planning to ask this, but it's so important these days, which is just like and jobs and hiring. So interesting that you would think AI would uh make engineers less necessary. On the other hand, it feels like you guys are hiring engineers like crazy. Open eyes hiring engineers like crazy. Just like there's so much demand for engineers. Where do you think this goes? What do you think about just the future of the end role? And this is a big question, but just

太有意思了。好，我们聊着聊着我冒出来一个问题，我特别想听你怎么答，本来都没打算问的，但它在当下实在太重要了——就是关于岗位和招聘。特别有意思的一点是：你本以为 AI 会让工程师变得没那么必要，可另一方面，感觉你们却在疯狂招工程师，OpenAI 也在疯狂招工程师，对工程师的需求大得不行。你觉得这会往哪儿走？你怎么看工程师这个角色的未来？这是个大问题，不过就……

[1:13:18] Fiona

[laughter]

（笑）

[1:13:19] Lenny

thoughts.

……谈谈你的想法。

[1:13:20] Fiona

I I'll I'll share I'll actually I'll I'll I'll share some vulnerability here. One, um speaking of like big open questions, I really do think how we grow the the next generation just because how you and me got to our engineering path is just so different. It's almost like, okay, now when you graduate from school, it's like how do you kind of fast-forward it? But but the important thing to me is that still understand kind of like, you know, that double-click I talked about to to the the layer of an eight. Um but that that is a big question I have, and I wish I have the answers, but I I wonder if it's um for software engineering, it's almost like you go more towards a fellowship or apprenticeship program. I know it's hard cuz technically we have like in internships that would but those were the kind of like 3 months and a little projects, but I I do wonder if um and I I wish I have a crystal ball here, but it's it's yeah, like how do you almost like cram in some of the And and maybe it won't matter, but you know, some of the life experiences that we all got, how do you actually enable um us to kind of like teach that to, you know, the next generation of builders?

我来分享一点……其实我在这儿坦诚一点、暴露点脆弱吧。第一，说到这些悬而未决的大问题，我真的特别在想：我们该怎么培养下一代人？因为你和我走上工程这条路的方式，跟现在太不一样了。现在几乎是这样一种局面：好，你从学校毕业之后，怎么把这个过程快进？但对我来说最重要的一点是，他们仍然要理解——就是我前面说的那种「往下钻一层」的能力，钻到底层那一层去。嗯，这是我心里一个很大的问号，我也希望我有答案，但我在想，对软件工程来说，会不会更像是走向一种 fellowship 或者师徒制的项目。我知道这很难，因为严格说我们是有实习生的，那本来也算，但那种实习就是大概三个月、做点小项目。我确实在想……我真希望我这儿有个水晶球能看穿未来，但就是——你怎么把我们当年攒下的那些……也许它最后并不重要，但就是我们大家都获得过的那些人生历练，怎么硬塞进去一部分？你怎么真正让我们有办法把那些东西教给下一代的 builder？

[1:14:28] Lenny

Right, like if you don't have to ever look at code, well, what's the incentive for a new software engineer to truly understand how infrastructure works and and memory allocation all these things that are like kind of foundational.

对，就是说，如果你这辈子都不用再看一行代码，那对一个新入行的软件工程师来说，他还有什么动力去真正搞懂基础设施是怎么跑的、内存是怎么分配的，这些算是地基的东西。

[1:14:42] Fiona

And and it's interesting. Maybe the the models will get good enough that it it doesn't matter, but I do

对，挺有意思的。也许模型会变得足够强，强到这些根本不重要了，但我确实……

[1:14:46] Lenny

Yeah.

对。

[1:14:47] Fiona

You know, but I do think there's something about that that double click cuz I think that's where there might be an opportunity to improve the product or the system. But, figuring out how to learn that not necessarily by, you know, like year years of uh

……但我确实觉得，那种「往下钻一层」的能力里有某种东西很关键，因为我觉得改进产品或系统的机会往往就藏在那一层。只不过，得想清楚怎么去习得这种能力——不一定非得靠那种好多好多年地……

[1:15:02] Lenny

of typing code.

……一行行敲代码地积累。

[1:15:03] Fiona

Yeah.

对。

[1:15:03] Lenny

Yeah, like somebody's got to have to understand code at some level. Like, it's like some COBOL engineer they have to like pull out of retirement one day like, "Do you remember how to write Python?"

对，总得有人在某个层面上真正懂代码。就好像哪天得把某个写 COBOL 的工程师从退休生活里拽回来：「你还记得怎么写 Python 吗？」

[1:15:13] Fiona

You know what you was really fun? One of my you know, previous managers. I mean, he started software engineer when it was punch cards. And it's so fabulous. Like, he's been messaging me everything he's been building with cloud code. And I'm like, "Wow, what a career that you go from like he's really like he you know, he's really kind of like seen this whole change. So, maybe I think for us to think about it is like when I think about his career, how he got started with punch cards was also totally totally different than than now. And so, it it might be that um I I think it'll be interesting for us to see what remains important. And then what changes in terms of importance. And then it's like how do you um have gained the Like, I have a theory maybe maybe that's the the what is important will shift over time. And then how do you kind of uh kind of build the proficiency into it.

你知道有件事特别有意思吗？我以前的一位经理——我是说，他入行做软件工程那会儿还是打孔卡的年代。这特别棒。他一直在给我发他用 cloud code 做的各种东西。我就想：哇，这职业生涯也太精彩了，他从打孔卡一路走过来，真的算是亲眼见证了整个变迁。所以也许对我们来说该这么想：回看他的职业生涯，他当年从打孔卡起步的方式，跟现在也是完全完全不一样的。所以也许会是这样：我觉得对我们来说，看清什么东西会一直重要、以及什么东西在重要性上会发生变化，这会很有意思。然后就是你怎么去……我有个理论，也许重要的东西会随时间推移而改变，然后你怎么把对应的熟练度重新构建进去。

[1:16:02] Lenny

Oh, yeah, just learn the things that really matter. Like, the argument that I I constantly hear is just like it's a new level of abstraction just like assembly and binary like it just keeps going up and up. And now, okay, we don't need to actually look at the code. It's like a new layer of abstraction prompts and and uh Claude's thinking uh you know, messages.

哦对，就是去学那些真正重要的东西。我常听到的一个说法是：这只是一个新的抽象层级，就像汇编、二进制一样，它就是一层层不断往上垒。现在好了，我们不用真的去看代码了，这就像又多了一层新的抽象——prompt，以及 Claude 的思考、它的那些 message。

[1:16:20] Fiona

Yeah, and it's maybe like, "Okay, what is a interesting problem? What's the prioritization for experience to build?" Like, it's it's interesting. Maybe we're kind of Yeah, and then when you build things, how do you know it's actually resonating? And and and uh it's kind of like doing what you intended.

对，也许会变成这样：「好，什么才是个有意思的问题？该优先打造哪种体验？」挺有意思的，也许我们正在某种……对，然后当你把东西做出来之后，你怎么知道它真的引起共鸣了？怎么知道它确实在做你本来想让它做的事？

[1:16:34] Lenny

And is good, yeah. Like, is this going to are we just building a bunch of slop here or is this actually architecture [laughter] that will work? I think the advantage though for young people is they are so it's so much easier to just to lean in and work in this new way versus being stuck in the way that things used to be. It's like rare It's like amazing how many long-time engineers like yourself have adapted and embraced this. It's like so hard to just change everything. Okay, let's do it. Everything [laughter]

而且质量过关，对吧。比如，我们到底是在堆一坨垃圾，还是在搭一个真正能跑起来的架构？[笑] 不过我觉得年轻人有个优势，就是他们直接顺势用这种新方式干活要容易得多，而不是被困在以前那套老路子里。难得的是，像你这样的资深工程师居然有这么多人也适应了、拥抱了这种变化，太让人惊讶了。要把一切都推倒重来真的太难了——好吧，那就干吧，全推倒重来 [笑]。

[1:16:59] Fiona

Well, cuz the rate of change is also so fast. Actually, that that was the one thing of I remember the first time I It was probably Sonnet 3.5 or or 3.6 like and I I remembered it was still like making some mistakes when I was doing things on the side. I'm like, "What are you doing?" And and and then what I noticed was some of the engineers that were resisting AI tooling. They're like, "Ah, but see, it's you know, like look at all of these." But then I think it was hard to understand of how kind of like exponential rate of improvements. And so always And maybe that's another interesting thing that I myself am learning too. Like there might have been something I tried to automate that Claude wasn't quite good enough. And then actually in the next model, oh well, now it is good enough. So it's always also thinking about what may have not worked. Like it might be worth a time to revisit cuz you know, that now might be a new capability.

对，因为变化的速度也实在太快了。其实这正是让我印象深刻的一点。我记得第一次用的时候，大概是 Sonnet 3.5 或者 3.6 吧，我在做一些边角的事情时它还会犯点错，我心想：「你这是在干嘛？」然后我注意到，有些抵触 AI 工具的工程师就会说：「你看吧，瞧瞧这一堆问题。」但我觉得很多人当时很难理解这种近乎指数级的进步速度。所以——这可能也是我自己正在学的另一件有意思的事——我之前想自动化某件事，Claude 当时还不太够格；结果到了下一个模型，诶，现在它就够用了。所以你也得时常回头想想那些当初没成的尝试，可能值得花点时间重新试一遍，因为现在说不定已经成了一种新能力了。

[1:17:49] Lenny

Yeah, that comes up a lot in this podcast. Just build something that is almost working that is at the edge because once the model gets there, you'll be so far ahead of everybody else. Okay, final question. You may have already answered this with what you just said, but what keeps you up at at night?

对，这个话题在这档播客里经常出现：去做一些当下几乎能跑、刚好卡在能力边缘的东西，因为一旦模型追上来，你就会比所有人都领先一大截。好，最后一个问题。你刚才说的可能已经回答了一部分，但还是想问：什么事情让你夜里睡不着？

[1:18:06] Fiona

You know, the thing that keeps me up at night is probably um is how we So, you know, we talked about kind of like Claude code and co-work team culture. That's and the team culture is really important to me. Like it's the one team mentality and I I you know, I I share with folks. And and by the way, culture is like a living breathing thing. It's not just a poster you slap on a wall and it changes over time and it's it shows up in how we treat each other, how we how we're there for each other. And so, the culture of the team is important to me because we are we are growing and and and since the culture shifts like making sure that maintaining the things are important that we are we still really like it's really important for me to have like diverse perspectives so then we can have you know like good healthy open honest debates on in the open and we kind of like welcome those and kind of what I call that one team mentality that when you get close to the finish line look behind you and see is there some of our team to help cuz we kind of finish as a team. That's probably the thing that keeps me up at night and it's it's like you know there's so many other hard problems right but I think maybe a lot of the other ones are product or engineering challenges that yes we have you know like dashboards or theories or hypotheses like but the culture is like a human aspect that is um Like like I I think that's the one that I I always want to make sure that we're as we grow we're still kind of like maintain that culture cuz it is kind of like the fiber of the team and it like when it starts drifting it it's it I'm always worried of you know like if it if it drifts are we catching it and having conversations as a team together to to to make sure we're kind of all wanting the culture to grow in the right direction.

让我夜里睡不着的，大概是……我们刚才聊到了 Claude Code 和 Cowork 团队的文化，团队文化对我来说真的非常重要。我们讲究的是「一个团队」的心态，我也常跟大家强调这一点。顺便说一句，文化是个有生命、会呼吸的东西，它不是你往墙上贴一张海报就完事的，它会随时间变化，它体现在我们怎么对待彼此、怎么在关键时刻互相托底。所以团队文化对我很重要，因为我们在不断扩张，而扩张会让文化漂移，所以一定要守住那些重要的东西。我特别看重团队里有多元的视角，这样我们才能在台面上展开健康、开放、坦诚的辩论，我们欢迎这种辩论。这就是我说的「一个团队」心态：当你快冲到终点线时，回头看看有没有队友需要拉一把，因为我们是作为一个团队一起冲线的。这大概就是让我夜里睡不着的事。当然还有很多别的难题，但我觉得其他很多要么是产品问题、要么是工程挑战，那些我们好歹有 dashboard、有理论、有假设；可文化是关乎「人」的那一面，它……我一直想确保我们在成长的同时仍然守得住这种文化，因为它就像团队的纤维、是把团队织在一起的东西。一旦它开始漂移，我总会担心：我们有没有及时察觉？有没有作为一个团队坐下来好好谈一谈，确保我们都希望这种文化朝着对的方向生长？

[1:19:49] Lenny

Yeah, I imagine everybody is struggling with this considering the pace of change and the pace of hiring just like especially a company like Anthropic that's in this crazy like the most unprecedented growth trajectory in history. I could see how that could be some a challenge with so much change so it makes sense like even you know at Airbnb when I was there like that was quite a growth trajectory and that was nothing like what you guys are going through. And that was a constant topic of conversation how do we maintain the culture?

对，我想几乎每个人都在为这件事发愁，尤其考虑到变化的速度和招人的速度——特别是像 Anthropic 这种公司，正走在历史上前所未有的疯狂增长曲线上。我完全能想象，伴随这么大的变化，这会是个挑战。这说得通。哪怕当年我在 Airbnb 的时候，那也算是一条相当陡的增长曲线了，可跟你们现在经历的根本没法比。而那时候「我们怎么守住文化」就已经是个反复被讨论的话题了。

[1:20:19] Fiona

Actually I'm curious what was your experience at Airbnb to maintain the culture as you were growing?

其实我挺好奇，你在 Airbnb 高速成长的时候，是怎么守住文化的？

[1:20:24] Lenny

things one is just the what worked well is the founders being obsessed with it like every every all hands every every big meeting is just like reminding of like the culture and the value of the culture and what the values are just the founders top-down being obsessed with it was a really big part of it. It just like couldn't have a meeting without that coming up as a as a thing. The other is a memory I always come back to is we had Sheryl Sandberg's became meta come to come do a fireside chat and somebody asked her just how do you maintain culture as you scale? Because we're just going so fast and it's so hard to mean deal with all this change and culture and all these new people and her advice was this is actually the what the problem you want to have because this means you're growing and doing well and this is normal versus you can nothing will change if you're doing badly like that's that's the that's so much worse situation when you're not growing and you're not hiring like crazy. That's a much worse situation that will cause even more even suffering. So this is what this is a good problem you're you're you're dealing with. is is her advice which has always stuck with me.

有几点。一是创始人对文化近乎痴迷——每一次全员大会、每一次重要会议，都在反复提醒大家这个文化、文化的价值，以及我们的价值观到底是什么；这种创始人自上而下的痴迷是非常关键的一环，几乎没有哪次会议不把它拎出来讲。另一个是我常常回想起的一段记忆：我们请了 Sheryl Sandberg（后来去了 Meta）来做一场炉边谈话，有人问她：随着规模扩张，你怎么守住文化？因为我们跑得太快了，要同时应付这么多变化、文化、还有这么多新人，实在太难了。她的建议是：这其实是你应该庆幸自己拥有的「好问题」，因为它意味着你在增长、在做得好，这是正常的；反过来，如果你做得很糟，什么都不会变——那才是糟糕得多的处境：你不增长、也不疯狂招人，那种处境会带来更多的痛苦。所以你现在面对的是个好问题。这是她的建议，一直深深印在我心里。

[1:21:32] Fiona

Oh, that's great. Like it's interesting like here you talk I think one of the important things to kind of cloud code and co-work team is um whether uh ICs or managers but this is a thing I especially ask for managers on the team is really important that we all talk about for sure what's going out but also just be open about what's not going well. Because then if we can actually have a conversation what's not going well that's how we can actually go ahead and address it. Like my my my speaking of what keeps me up at night my nightmare is especially if someone's in a manager position and and I'm like hey how are things going? Everything's fine. I'm like oh my gosh I'm not doing [laughter] fine. I know this things are and like like it's that that whole like you know how there was this meme of the doctor cat cup of coffee in a room that's on fire. This is like that that is my my nightmare. So that's actually a discussion I have with a lot of folks on the team especially managers of when they first joined up hey let's always have these open conversations so that we can solve problems together.

哦，太棒了。挺有意思的，听你这么一说——我觉得对 Claude Code 和 Cowork 团队来说很重要的一点，不管是 IC 还是管理者……但我尤其会要求团队里的管理者做到这一点：我们当然要聊那些进展顺利的事，但也要坦诚地讲讲哪些事情不顺。因为只有真正把「哪里不顺」摆出来谈，我们才能着手去解决它。说到让我夜里睡不着的事——我的噩梦是，尤其当某个人处在管理岗位上，我问他「最近怎么样？」，对方答「一切都好」，我心里就会想：天哪，我可不好 [笑]，我知道事情明明有状况。就像那个梗图——着火的房间里，一只猫端着咖啡说「一切安好」，这就是我的噩梦。所以这其实是我跟团队里很多人、尤其是管理者刚加入时就会谈的：咱们以后一定要保持这种开放的对话，这样才能一起解决问题。

[1:22:28] Lenny

I imagine there's something a lot of people struggle with seeing so many people around them doing super well, at least seemingly doing well. Everything's going great. I'm growing this this awesome company or like just like everything it's hard to like hard to actually be honest and say it's not going great. I'm struggling here. I'm falling behind cuz everyone around you is just like on the surface feeling like they're killing it.

我想这是很多人都会挣扎的一点：看到身边那么多人混得风生水起，至少表面上看起来很好，一切都顺风顺水——「我在带一家了不起的公司」之类的，什么都好——这种时候真的很难坦诚地说出「我过得不太好，我在这儿挣扎，我快掉队了」，因为周围每个人在表面上看起来都所向披靡。

[1:22:50] Fiona

Mhm.

嗯。

[1:22:51] Lenny

Yeah. Before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you either want to leave listeners with, anything else that we didn't cover, anything else that's important that you wanted to share?

好，在进入我们非常激动人心的快问快答之前，你还有没有什么想留给听众的话？有没有什么我们没聊到、但你觉得重要、想分享的？

[1:23:03] Fiona

Maybe one thing is like just a suggestion cuz you know we talked about how how can Cloud do like automate like one other thing that's really big on Cloud Code and Core team culture is explicit permission to kill processes that no longer serve us. And so maybe a suggestion is for you know any anyone you know like on our work and our team or leading teams like take your like what's one process that you either dread doing or is really highly noisy or is like really expensive in terms of like just a lot of like it it might or is something that's just very manual. Like pick one thing and first ask is it still having its purpose? Like for example one like even our planning like Actually that was my own big first learning when I first joined Cloud Code. I'm like hey maybe we should you know do a six-month road map doc and and but we're going to do it super lightweight cuz I don't want to waste a lot of time planning and I I felt we did a really lightweight process. But that was such a good learning for me cuz the exercise was good to kickstart conversations and ensure we're aligned but like three months into it I'm like wait have we still referenced because so much has changed and that was also something I like and so that was also something I changed to that I myself brought in thinking hey maybe this will this will help. So always be open to learning and always ask yourself whatever process you have is it still serving its purpose? Just because the field is changing so fast.

也许有一点——算是个建议吧。我们刚聊到 Claude 怎么帮忙做自动化，而 Claude Code 和 Cowork 团队文化里还有非常重要的一条：明确授权大家去「砍掉」那些不再为我们服务的流程。所以我的建议是，无论你是普通成员、还是在带团队，挑一个你做起来最发怵、或者噪音特别大、或者代价特别高（要花一大堆功夫）、又或者特别手工的流程——挑一件出来，先问问自己：它现在还有存在的意义吗？举个例子，就连我们做规划这件事……其实这正是我刚加入 Claude Code 时学到的第一个大教训。当时我说：「要不我们做一份六个月的路线图文档吧？不过要做得超级轻量，因为我不想在规划上浪费太多时间。」我感觉我们当时确实走了个很轻量的流程。但那对我来说是个特别好的教训，因为做这件事的过程本身是好的——它能启动对话、确保大家对齐；可做了三个月后我就想：等等，我们还有在参照它吗？因为变化太大了。所以这也是我后来动手改掉的东西——本来是我自己引进来、想着「也许这能帮上忙」，结果还是得改。所以永远要对学习保持开放，永远问自己：手头的这套流程，它现在还在发挥它的作用吗？因为这个领域变化实在太快了。

[1:24:25] Lenny

I love that advice. I got to follow up on this real quick. So, what is it? How do you think about planning now? Do you do any planning? Is it just like a month-long road map? What's kind of like the simple way to explain where you're at with that?

我太喜欢这个建议了。想就这点快速追问一下：那你现在到底怎么做规划？你还做规划吗？是不是就是一个月的路线图？用最简单的话讲，你现在大概是个什么状态？

[1:24:36] Fiona

Yeah, I I call it JIT planning now, like just-in-time planning. So, it it is like around like cuz yeah, I think 6 months was too long. So, now for sure some projects will take more than a month, but we try to do like a a month of planning, like really lightweight. Actually, there's not even docs. It's really just us aligning on a on a little spreadsheet of what we think is important. But even that one, I'm I'm kind of thinking through, "Hey, like every week we should probably still keep a like what we're trying is here are the the month's priorities." And we're going to try it out, but I have a feeling like every week we'll probably want to do really quick like, "Hey, just to check. Yep, this is the still this month's priorities. Good." Um but yeah, like but now we we've shrunk it to JIT monthly planning.

嗯，我现在管它叫 JIT 规划，也就是「即时（just-in-time）规划」。因为我觉得六个月确实太长了。当然有些项目肯定会做一个多月，但我们尽量按一个月来规划，真的很轻量——其实连文档都没有，就是大家在一张小表格上对齐一下我们认为什么最重要。不过就连这个，我也还在琢磨：每周大概还是得留一个环节，比如「这是本月的优先级」，我们先试试看，但我有种感觉，每周我们大概都会想很快地确认一下：「就核对一下，对，这还是本月的优先级，好。」嗯，反正现在我们已经把它压缩成 JIT 月度规划了。

[1:25:17] Lenny

So, it's monthly meaning for the next month, here's a little uh sheet/Excel spreadsheet of what we're planning to do for the next month. And then every week check in, is this still what we're planning to do for the next month?

所以「月度」的意思是：针对下个月，做一张小表格 / Excel，列出下个月打算干的事；然后每周核对一次「这还是我们下个月打算做的吗」？

[1:25:28] Fiona

Yeah, it's it's yeah, like like very very we But even that one, I'm also still feeling, "How can we even automate this more?" Cuz I don't I never want it to be feeling like a tax when someone has to, you know, up update the spreadsheet. So, this is actually yeah, like just yesterday we're chatting, "Hey, how can we actually uh automate this?" Well, it's getting to that question, always ask yourselves, "Can we actually automate this better?"

对，就是这样，非常非常……不过就连这个，我也还在想：「我们还能怎么把它进一步自动化？」因为我永远不希望它变成一种负担——一种让人觉得「我又得去更新那张表格了」的税。所以其实就在昨天我们还在聊：「诶，我们到底能怎么把这个自动化掉？」这就又回到那个问题了，永远问自己：「这件事我们能不能做得更自动化一点？」

[1:25:50] Lenny

Like my PM brain is like, that's so like how could you not do something like that?

我这颗 PM 脑子的反应是：这种事怎么可能不去做？！

[1:25:54]

[laughter]

[笑]

[1:25:54] Lenny

Okay, here's what we're thinking for the next month. Let's just check it once a week. Let's make sure this is like it's hard to imagine that not happening. Um and you don't have a lot of items on the spreadsheet is what I'm hearing also.

「好，这是我们下个月的打算，每周核对一次。」要确保这件事——很难想象它居然没发生。嗯，而且我还听出来：你那张表格上的条目其实不多。

[1:26:05] Fiona

Yeah, but like we really try focus. So, like we will will share out like here's what we think are the highest priorities. And again, for that agency of given the priorities, then like everybody's like their kind of like item for how they think uh addresses those priorities.

对，但我们真的力求聚焦。我们会把「我们认为优先级最高的几件事」分享出去；然后还是那句话，为了给大家发挥空间——在这些优先级之下，每个人会各自想出自己那一项、用自己认为合适的方式去回应这些优先级。

[1:26:19] Lenny

Is there anything that's like here's for the next like 6 months bigger bets kind of stuff or is it just like let's just think 1 month ahead?

那有没有那种「这是未来六个月、更大一些的押注」之类的东西？还是说你们就只往前看一个月？

[1:26:26] Fiona

I like so we'll usually definitely there's themes of where we think the the work and so we'll we'll definitely like um and actually the the whole team will bring everyone together uh like every every 6 months. So there we'll usually kick off like some themes but then it's really the making sure we keep the pulse of what because again like even though themes change you know so fast when uh the landscape changes.

有的，我们通常肯定会有一些「主题」，标出我们认为工作的方向所在。而且其实整个团队大约每六个月会聚到一起一次，那时候我们通常会启动一些主题；但接下来真正关键的，是持续把住脉搏，因为还是那句话——哪怕主题，在大环境一变、节奏一快的时候，也会变得很快。

[1:26:49] Lenny

All right, let's pull up the spreadsheet and let's take a look.

好，那咱们把那张表格调出来，一起看看吧。

[1:26:51]

[laughter]

[笑]

[1:26:54] Lenny

Oh man. Man, this this whole podcast could have been just talking about this planning stuff they do. Okay, I'm going to have to find someone else to talk about this cuz this is so interesting just how y'all plan. Uh yeah, okay. Well, Fiona, with that we reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready?

哎呀，老天。这整档播客其实光聊你们做规划这套东西都聊得下来。好吧，我大概得另找个人专门聊这个了，因为你们怎么做规划真的太有意思了。嗯，好。那么 Fiona，至此我们就来到了非常激动人心的快问快答环节。我准备了五个问题，准备好了吗？

[1:27:10] Fiona

Ready.

准备好了。

[1:27:11] Lenny

Okay, first question. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

好，第一个问题。有哪两三本书，是你最常推荐给别人的？

[1:27:17] Fiona

Ooh, I will say for fiction uh actually two authors I recommend to everyone, Margaret Atwood and uh Haruki Murakami. Um those are just two like like I mean I grew up in Canada so so I I read a lot a lot of Atwood growing up but her books are fascinating cuz it's almost like speculative fiction of you can kind of squint and say okay could this actually you know like happen to to a society. So so I love her take on speculative fiction and Murakami I love his um magical realism style. It's it's um but then the one book so there are authors but the one book I always recommend to everyone to read at least once a year or you know um The Little Prince. I like I I think I'm I'm sure we probably all read it at at some point in our lives but I think it's a I I read it at least once a year. It just you know, to to remind me to to think about like kind of like what's truly important.

哦，小说的话，其实有两位作家我会推荐给每一个人：Margaret Atwood（玛格丽特·阿特伍德）和 Haruki Murakami（村上春树）。这两位……我是在加拿大长大的，所以从小读了非常多阿特伍德的作品。她的书特别迷人，几乎算是「推想小说」——你眯起眼睛就会想：好吧，这种事真有可能发生在某个社会身上吗？所以我特别爱她对推想小说的处理。村上春树我则爱他那种「魔幻现实主义」的风格。不过要说一本书——前面是作家，但有一本书我总是推荐给所有人，建议每年至少读一次——就是《小王子》。我想我们大概都在人生某个阶段读过它，但我每年至少会读一遍。它会提醒我去想一想：到底什么才是真正重要的。

[1:28:17] Lenny

Wow. That doesn't come up a bunch. Okay. I love it. Uh favorite recent movie or TV show you have really enjoyed?

哇，这本可不常被提到。好，我太喜欢了。那最近有没有特别喜欢的电影或电视剧？

[1:28:25] Fiona

I haven't watched TV [laughter] shows.

我基本不看电视剧 [笑]。

[1:28:27] Lenny

That's very common across Anthropic people I have on the podcast. Common theme.

这在我请来的 Anthropic 的人里特别普遍，算是个共同主题了。

[1:28:32] Fiona

But I will share with you what I always have downloaded on my phone so that if I'm on on the airplane um So there's three movies I I always have on my phone cuz I I think they're just so so fun to to to watch if I have time. One is Amelie. It's this uh French movie that oh my gosh, all of these movies are going to be very old by the way. It's going to be like vintage movies. But I I I loved Amelie. Super whimsical. So really highly recommend it to um anyone that haven't seen it. It's uh you know, if I if you remember I told you I was you know, going on a I thought I was going to be a visual artist. So when I was 16, my high school we took a a trip a high school trip to Paris and that that just I I've so many memories of that and Amelie really captures the magic I felt at Paris. And the other two are are Ghibli films. Uh I love Spirited Away. That's um it's just such a like just such a I just love that story. I I I love the yeah, like I I just love every everything about Spirited Away. It's probably one of my favorite Ghibli films. And then the third was another Ghibli film um Nausicaa Valley of the Wind. And uh I I think about this one quite a bit because if anyone asked me, "Hey, how did you kind of think about you know, all these leadership traits?" I think what I watched that movie probably when I was eight or nine. And the the heroine Nausicaa and how she seeing how she leads just left such a like um just left such a footprint in my heart I guess you could say that probably Nausicaa has inspired me to a lot and a lot of my different leadership principles.

不过我可以跟你分享我手机里一直存着的东西，这样我在飞机上就能看。我手机里一直存着三部电影，因为我觉得它们太好看了，一有时间就想拿出来看。一部是《天使爱美丽》（Amelie），一部法国电影——天哪，我要说的这几部待会儿你会发现都特别老，全是「复古」片。但我超爱《天使爱美丽》，特别天马行空，强烈推荐给所有还没看过的人。还记得我前面说过，我以为自己会成为一名视觉艺术家吗？我十六岁时，高中组织了一次去巴黎的旅行，那次留给我太多回忆了，而《天使爱美丽》恰好捕捉到了我当时在巴黎感受到的那种魔力。另外两部都是吉卜力的电影。我超爱《千与千寻》（Spirited Away），那个故事我真的太喜欢了，关于它的一切我都爱，它大概是我最喜欢的吉卜力电影之一。第三部是另一部吉卜力——《风之谷》（Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind）。这部我常常会想起，因为如果有人问我「你这些领导力特质是怎么形成的？」——我大概是八九岁时看的这部电影，女主角娜乌西卡（Nausicaä）她领导的方式，在我心里留下了特别深的印记，可以说娜乌西卡在很多方面都启发了我，影响了我许多不同的领导原则。

[1:30:08] Lenny

Wow, what what is that book called again?

哇，那本书再说一遍叫什么来着？

[1:30:10] Fiona

Uh the the movie's called like Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind, but it was actually based on a on a manga.

呃，电影叫《风之谷》（Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind），不过它其实是改编自一部漫画。

[1:30:15] Lenny

Valley of the Wind. So, it's like High Output Management Andy Grove, Valley of the Wind Nausicaä.

《风之谷》。所以这就好比——Andy Grove 的《High Output Management》（高产出管理），和《风之谷·娜乌西卡》。

[1:30:20]

[laughter]

[笑]

[1:30:20] Fiona

That's right.

没错。

[1:30:21] Lenny

Two top management books. So cool. Okay. Uh do you have a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love? Could be an app, could be clothing, could be a gadget, could be kitchen equipment. Uh

两本顶级的管理学「读物」，太酷了。好。那你最近有没有发现什么特别喜欢的产品？可以是 App、可以是衣服、可以是某个小玩意儿、也可以是厨房用具。呃——

[1:30:32] Fiona

I'll I'll share the product that I was reminded of how much has made a difference in my life recently. Uh cuz I've been just traveling a little bit and so I don't I and I like to travel really light. So, I I use whatever shampoo and conditioner, you know, that the hotel gives. And I forgot that um so the the the product that I I actually have one of their hand I promise this is not an infomercial. But Sweet Sisters Bodycare. It's, you know, a a local business on on Whidbey Island. Um but the reason why their product has made such a big difference in my life uh it's a full line of organic hair, body, skin care. But a few years ago I started getting this rash on my nose right here that was really painful, like actually bleeding. And I could not for the life of me figure out how to stop it. Like I tried not using any lotions. Like I cut everything out on my face and it was still really hurting and then somebody says, "What's the shampoo you're using?" I'm like, "It's the same shampoo I've used since I was, you know, like a teenager." And they're like, "Maybe your body has now um and it's, you know, like generic, you know, brown shampoo that you get anywhere." And they said, "Maybe your body's just started developing an allergy to to it because of the chemicals uh in it that I like it."

我想分享一个最近让我重新意识到它对我生活影响有多大的产品。因为我最近一直在出差，我喜欢轻装出行，所以洗发水、护发素这些我就直接用酒店提供的。我忘了带自己的了，他们家的产品我手边正好有一支护手霜——我保证这不是广告——它叫 Sweet Sisters Bodycare，是 Whidbey Island 上的一家本地小店。它的产品之所以对我影响这么大，是因为它是一整套有机的护发、护体、护肤产品。几年前我鼻子这个位置开始长一种疹子，非常疼，甚至会出血，我怎么都查不出怎么才能让它好。我试过不抹任何乳液，把脸上所有东西都停掉，还是很疼。后来有人问我：你用的是什么洗发水？我说就是我从十几岁青春期开始一直用的那款啊，就是那种到处都买得到的普通的、棕色瓶子的洗发水。他们说：可能是你身体现在对它里面的某些化学成分产生过敏了。

[1:31:45] Lenny

Wow.

哇。

[1:31:46] Fiona

I'm like, "What?" And so anyways, this was an organic shampoo that I found. Lo and behold, I use their shampoo and then cuz I you don't think that when you wash your hair, it actually then, you know, like goes goes over to the to the rest of your body. But so since then I've switched everything that I used to be Sweet Sisters. Um but I'm recently reminded of how important this is cuz after a week of uh yeah, hotel shampoo, I I actually started having some skin reactions again. I'm like, "Ah, maybe I should get like travel-size bottles that I can bring with me."

我当时心想：什么？反正后来我就找到了这款有机洗发水。结果你猜怎么着，我一用他们家的洗发水就好了。你平时根本不会想到，洗头的时候洗发水其实也会顺着流到身体其他部位。从那以后我就把以前用的所有东西全换成 Sweet Sisters 了。最近又重新意识到这事有多重要，因为用了一周酒店的洗发水之后，我的皮肤又开始有些反应了。我心想：哎，也许我该弄几个旅行装的小瓶子随身带着。

[1:32:18] Lenny

This is an awesome pick. I love local local business picks, even big bonus points for that. Uh and by the way, this travel you're doing just for folks that may not know this, there's a there's these Code with Claude events that are happening all over the world. I went to the one in SF. There was one in London. You're going to one in Tokyo. Is that the end of it or is there more after that?

这个推荐太棒了。我特别喜欢推荐本地小店，光这一点就大大加分。对了，顺便说一句，你现在这趟出差——可能有些人还不知道——其实是有一系列叫 Code with Claude 的活动正在全世界各地举办。SF 那场我去了，伦敦也有一场，你接下来要去东京那场。是到东京就结束了，还是后面还有？

[1:32:36] Fiona

Uh Tokyo is So, yeah, that's next week and that's the last leg of of the trip.

东京就是下周，那是这趟行程的最后一站。

[1:32:40] Fiona

And then probably probably more in the future. Uh

之后将来应该还会有更多场。

[1:32:43]

[laughter]

（笑）

[1:32:43] Lenny

so cool. I love that that's happening. Okay, two more questions. Do you have a favorite life motto that you find yourself coming back to often in work or in life?

太酷了，我特别喜欢这种活动。好，还有两个问题。你有没有一句特别喜欢、在工作或生活中经常会回想起来的人生格言？

[1:32:51] Fiona

Ooh. Um so, in work, I really love to remind folks keep it simple. Like, what is the the thing that you're really trying to do well and and focus on that? Do you know, like keep it simple cuz I think sometimes we could overthink. Uh so, it's always a good mantra to think about that. Uh and then in life, um you know, probably in a world where you can be anything, be kind.

哦。工作上的话，我特别喜欢提醒大家：keep it simple，保持简单。你真正想做好的那件事到底是什么，然后专注在它上面。你懂的，保持简单，因为我觉得我们有时候会想得太复杂。所以这一直是个值得放在心里的好准则。生活上嘛，大概就是那句——在一个你可以成为任何样子的世界里，选择善良（in a world where you can be anything, be kind）。

[1:33:11] Lenny

Yeah. I love that one. I We were at a at a Montessori school uh tour and that's what the teacher had up on the wall.

对，我也很喜欢这句。我们之前去一所蒙特梭利学校参观，老师就把这句话贴在墙上。

[1:33:19] Fiona

Aw. Like, it's you know, we have we have so many things going on that you never know what's going on in someone else's life and that one small act of of kindness can make the biggest difference. Like, um

哎呀。你想啊，我们每个人都有那么多事情要忙，你永远不知道别人的生活里正在经历什么，而那一个小小的善意举动，可能就会带来天大的不同。比如说——

[1:33:31] Lenny

Yeah.

是的。

[1:33:31] Fiona

For for me, actually, that was what Remember Do you remember COVID? We were all like working from home during, you know, the COVID days.

对我来说，真正让我记住这句话的，是——你还记得 COVID 吗？那段时间我们都在家办公。

[1:33:39] Fiona

Um I it it just always really stuck struck with me cuz I was in these, you know, back-to-back meetings and I and I always one-on-ones are really important to me because, you know, that I actually that time is usually also really important for the other person. It's something that, you know, they've been looking to. They might have things they discuss. So, I always try it, I always really prioritize one-on-ones. Uh but during that time I my grandmother wasn't doing well and she was in a home in Canada and because of COVID I couldn't go visit and actually even my aunt uh you know, aunt and mom couldn't go visit. And it was this very rare of if if they have a helper that can help we could do FaceTime. But you never know what time that is going to be because you know, there's so many people to take care and all of a sudden I got a message from my aunt going, "Grandma can FaceTime at like 12:00 p.m. today." I'm like, "Oh no, there's this one-on-one that I I've been meaning to have and I I just messaged uh you know, my report to say, "I'm really really sorry. It's so last minute. Is it okay to and I know it now it's when I say it it doesn't seem like it's a big thing cuz it's like but to me it's always really important to keep but he was like, "Yeah, totally. No problem at all." And for me that was just a small act of kindness. He doesn't and he totally didn't make it into a big deal but that made the biggest difference to me that I got to you know, say hi to my grandmother on FaceTime.

这件事一直深深印在我心里。那时候我整天开背靠背的会，而一对一沟通对我来说一直很重要，因为那段时间通常对对方也很重要——那是他们一直期待的时刻，他们可能有想聊的事。所以我一直很重视、很优先安排一对一。但就在那段时间，我外婆身体不太好，她住在加拿大的一家养老院，因为疫情我没法去看她，甚至连我阿姨和我妈也去不了。只有在偶尔有护工能帮忙的时候，我们才能跟她 FaceTime，但你永远不知道那会是什么时间，因为要照顾的人太多了。突然有一天我收到阿姨的消息说：外婆今天中午 12 点能 FaceTime。我心想：哦不，我那个一直想约的一对一正好在这个点。我就给我的下属发消息说：真的非常非常抱歉，临时通知，能不能改一下时间。现在说出来好像不是什么大事，但对我来说守住这个约定一直很重要。结果他说：当然没问题，完全 OK。对我来说这就是一个小小的善意。他完全没把它当回事、没让我觉得有负担，但这对我意义重大——我得以跟外婆在 FaceTime 上打了招呼。

[1:34:53] Lenny

I love that.

我太喜欢这个故事了。

[1:34:54]

[laughter]

（笑）

[1:34:55] Lenny

Okay. Uh final question. Uh so Boris Cherny, when I asked him about you, when he had this interesting insight where he said, "In very important meetings you can often hear Fiona you can hear the click-clack of Fiona knitting in the background."

好。最后一个问题。我之前问 Boris Cherny 关于你的事，他给了我一个很有意思的细节，他说：在很多非常重要的会议上，你常常能听到背景里 Fiona 织毛衣的咔哒咔哒声。

[1:35:10]

[laughter]

（笑）

[1:35:11] Lenny

Uh maybe talk about just what's going on there and what's [laughter] what are a couple things you knitted recently? Oh my gosh. Well, I I knitted this top recently.

要不你聊聊那是怎么回事，还有——（笑）你最近织了几样什么东西？天哪。嗯，我最近织了这件上衣。

[1:35:22] Lenny

You make your own clothing. Unreal. This is [laughter] very meta for Cloud Code building itself.

你自己织自己的衣服。太不可思议了。这简直就是 Claude Code 自己构建自己，特别 meta。

[1:35:28] Fiona

You know, we're always building our clothing.

你懂的，我们一直在「构建」自己的衣服嘛。

[1:35:30]

[laughter]

（笑）

[1:35:30] Fiona

Yeah, actually actually this is whole fun thing I I think between knitting and programming cuz it's kind of like two stitches, knit and a purl, so it's zero and one. And anyway, so many concepts of stocks and queues you actually could Like I'm kind of like a compiler. I'm kind of like you know, generating a an executable when I knit. Um but I don't [laughter] know about that. Yeah, actually it was my my grandma that taught me to to knit when I was eight. I kind of mentioned her and I um going to that yarn shop and so every time I I I knit I think of her. Um but I I always like to multitask as you can see. Like yeah, I kick off multiple agents and so anytime I'm sitting and because um I practice enough and got proficient I have to I don't have to look at at what I'm doing. So it's almost almost like how you know sometimes people have like fidget spinners and such. Uh knitting is just so anytime I'm sitting still I'm like, oh this is time to you know like generate more knitting. It's cute. Well, cuz I got so much yarn that if I don't do this yeah, my my yarn I'm I might have a slight yarn addiction problem.

对，其实这里有件很好玩的事，我一直觉得编织和编程之间是相通的，因为它基本上就是两种针法——下针（knit）和上针（purl），就相当于 0 和 1。很多栈和队列的概念其实你都能对上。我织毛衣的时候有点像一个编译器，有点像在生成一个可执行文件。嗯，不过这个嘛（笑）我也说不准。对了，是我外婆在我八岁的时候教我织毛衣的。我前面提到过她，还有我去那家毛线店的事，所以每次我织毛衣都会想起她。我也特别喜欢一心多用，你看，我会同时 kick off 好几个 agent，所以但凡我坐着的时候——因为我练得够多、够熟练了，我都不用看着手在干嘛。这就有点像有些人喜欢玩指尖陀螺，对我来说织毛衣就是这样，只要我一坐下来闲着，我就想：哦，这是该「生成」更多毛衣的时间了。挺可爱的。而且我囤了太多毛线，要是我不织——对，我可能有点轻微的毛线囤积症。

[1:36:28] Lenny

I love this. When I when I asked Boris what he would do when AGI hits when we don't have to work he said he's going to make me so I'm guessing your answer would be just knit and make beautiful clothing. [laughter]

我太喜欢了。我之前问 Boris，等 AGI 真的到来、我们都不用工作了他会去做什么，他说他要去做——所以我猜你的答案就是：织毛衣、做漂亮的衣服。（笑）

[1:36:37] Fiona

Oh my gosh, my dream is to actually open up a a yarn store in my grandmother's name and and create that community.

天哪，我的梦想其实是以我外婆的名字开一家毛线店，营造那样一个社区。

[1:36:44] Lenny

And then co-work would help out you automate everything.

然后 Cowork 就能来帮你，把所有事情都自动化。

[1:36:46] Fiona

That's right. Especially invoicing.

没错。尤其是开发票这块。

[1:36:49]

[laughter]

（笑）

[1:36:50] Lenny

Oh my god. Fiona, you're awesome. It's just incredible the work that you and your team are doing just changing the world in such profound ways and there's no it's clear why it's growing so fast. So good job. Good job over there. Thank you for making time for this.

天哪。Fiona，你太棒了。你和你的团队正在做的工作真的太了不起了，以如此深刻的方式改变着世界，难怪它增长得这么快，原因显而易见。干得漂亮，你们那边干得真漂亮。谢谢你抽时间来录这期。

[1:37:07] Fiona

Well, I'm just really honestly lucky and humble that I get to work with such an amazing team. Like I know how lucky and I am I am and I'm so grateful. But thanks a lot for having me on the podcast as well. This was a lot of fun.

说真的，我只是觉得自己特别幸运、也特别谦卑，能跟这么棒的一个团队共事。我知道自己有多幸运，我真的非常感恩。也非常感谢你邀请我上这档播客，今天聊得太开心了。

[1:37:19] Lenny

Uh to follow up on questions, where can folks find you online if you are online if they want to follow up on anything and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果大家想进一步联系你，你在网上的话——如果你有上网的话——他们可以在哪里找到你？还有，听众可以怎么帮到你？

[1:37:26] Fiona

Ooh, uh so definitely I'm on LinkedIn and I'm sure most people have shared this already but would love feedback of what's going well, what's not going well. Um also any latent demand that you are all using that might be interesting use cases. You know, I had a friend message me recently to go, oh I'm using Claude to help me generate uh a building plan for my shed and he actually showed me his his shed, which was cool. So would would love to hear about that. And then yeah, maybe also, you know, we talked about reaching out across over there's someone whether a small business that you love or or someone that you feel like hasn't you know, as some of the listeners are super AI pill. Yeah, maybe take a time to hold somebody's hand to show what's AI might be able to help them with.

哦，我肯定在 LinkedIn 上，我相信大多数人应该已经分享过了。我很希望听到反馈——哪些地方做得好、哪些做得不好。还有你们正在用的任何潜在需求（latent demand），可能会是很有意思的用例。最近有个朋友给我发消息说：哦，我在用 Claude 帮我生成一个小棚屋的搭建方案，他还把他的棚屋照片给我看了，特别酷。我很想听到更多这样的故事。另外嘛，我们前面聊到的「向外伸出手」——也许你身边有一家你很喜欢的小店，或者某个你觉得还没怎么接触过 AI 的人，毕竟有些听众已经是超级 AI 信徒了——也许你可以花点时间，手把手地带他们看看 AI 能在哪些地方帮到他们。

[1:38:11] Lenny

Such a good one. That is such a good answer to this question. Especially coming from you, Fiona. This was awesome. Thank you so much for being here.

太好了。这个问题你回答得真好，尤其是出自你之口，Fiona。这期太棒了。非常感谢你来。

[1:38:18] Fiona

Thanks so much for having me, Lenny.

非常感谢你邀请我，Lenny。

[1:38:20] Lenny

Bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as [music] that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. [music] See you in the next episode.

各位再见。非常感谢大家的收听。如果你觉得这期内容有价值，可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或你常用的播客 App 上订阅本节目。也欢迎给我们打个分或留个评价，（音乐）那真的能帮助更多听众发现这档播客。你可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有往期节目、了解更多关于本节目的信息。（音乐）下期再见。